[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

[turdle]

The Quorin thing is still happening, according to episode summaries.

which won't make any sense. so either quorin saves him so he can be recaptured an episode later, or quorin also gets captured and jon kills him without quorin effectively instructing him to do so, making jon a coward and a murderer. plus, what was jon going to say to quorin about ygitte if he caught back up with them? he's still supposed to have killed her, why was he trying to bring her back to them? either kill her or let her go.

[Hoo]

Really?! I won't address the rest of your post because I'm not sure I can disagree, but I feel like this episode has some of my favorite moments of dialogue as yet. Cersei got that fantastic line about "every time a Targ is born the gods flip a coin"; we got some great dialogue between Arya and Tywin (love those actors together); I thought Brienne's line about "who wants to die defending a Lannister?" was wonderful, especially when you consider the future of her storyline. And I thought Jaime was excellent this whole episode, from his "not a lot of fish left in you" jibe, to talking about squiring for Barristan Selmy, but most of all, I loved his speech about oaths. Gave me chills!

And, oh yeah, can't forget we got our first "You know nothing, Jon Snow"!

meh, irrelevant, the episode was completely irrelevant. HBO fooled me into watching it.

[turdle]

double post

Edited May 15, 2012 by turdle

[CrypticWeirwood]

This was my least favorite episode because it was devoid of meaningful dialog, completely stagnant as far as Clash of Kings, and filled with useless acts like killing of council and Jaime's escape. Nothing happened. One more like this and I can safely declare this show is starting to bore me.

I’m with ya, Bro, like so all the way there.

• Indeed, I’m sure the Eleven will be overjoyed to learn that their magicked-up simulthroatslitting never happened.
  
• By the same token, Jon-Boy Alton will surely be pleased with his own status quo ante, back before he got himself all murdalated by his false idol, that shining beacon of chivalry and charades.
  
• Good thing we didn’t learn that Stannis isn’t just a few days from the city or anything like that.
  
• Sansa gets to return to her immaculately blessèd state of not being bloody beddable and weddable by the Mad Kinglet any longer.
  
• Our semperfaithful and consequently blueballian Jon-Boy Snow won’t have gotten hisself captured by the wicked Eskimawildlings. Whoot whoot!
  
• To top it all off, since nothing happened, Bran and Rickon don’t have any effigial combustion corpsimummers for Maester Luwin to rip the last of his hairs out over, and nos petits princes can go prancing off in the fields that we know, ♩♬ tra-la-la-la-ing ♬ all the way home.
  

Sing and rejoice all ye prisoners in Boreville! Praise the Martin Above that NOTHING HAPPENED!

Edited May 15, 2012 by CrypticWeirwood

[J_Crews]

which won't make any sense. so either quorin saves him so he can be recaptured an episode later, or quorin also gets captured and jon kills him without quorin effectively instructing him to do so, making jon a coward and a murderer.

They'll capture Quorin; he and Jon will talk, he'll instruct Jon to kill him, blah blah blah. All ends the same.

Edited May 15, 2012 by J.S. Crews

[David Selig]

I am hoping Qhorin is already captured, otherwise he's the most overrated ranger ever for not being able to find Jon for so long.

[Kvothe the Arcane]

They'll capture Quorin; he and Jon will talk, he'll instruct Jon to kill him, blah blah blah. All ends the same.

Exactly, in fact I think its quite a good change as it serves to demonstrate that the wildlings are actually strong beyond the Wall, they are still in the characterisation stage, where all we've seen is Craster and Osha remember, the audience needs to know on their land the Watch isn't going to have an easy ride, especially given next series' plot with Mance's invasion. In the same point the Watch needs to be emphasised as being decadent and outnumbered.

Edited May 15, 2012 by A Knight Without Honour

[khaleesiStormborn]

I love the looks that Dagmer gives Theon!!! PRICELESS!!! And even Theon looked sick when dude uncovered the two kids at the end.

And I agree that Tywin is being very uncharacteristic, but I still like the scenes anyway. I also like Ygritte's character, but where the hell is Ghost!!!

Jaime-"Where did u find this beast" hilarious!!! I missed Jaquen H'gar, and Margery Tyrell. Wished they were in this episode.

Loved the Cersei, Sansa Scene. I thought after last weeks episode, this weeks was gonna kick ass, but it was alot slower than I thought it would be. Cannot wait for season 3. The third book was my favorite. Oh and I loved the awkward scene with Cersei and Tyrion. That was great!!!

[IDunc]

I LOVED this episode! I am not a book reader, so I don't give two shoots if it went off of the book. The ending was AMAZING!!! I'm so glad to hear it's not actually Bran and Rickon, though. They had me fooled for a second. I like Theon very much. I can't wait until he gets what he deserves. I look forward to seeing what will happen to him.

I love the Jon/Ygritte dynamic. The person who plays Ygritte is a fantastic actor.

The Tywin/Arya dynamic is also great! I'm not too sure, but I think Tywin knows of Arya's identity... at least, I hope he does. It will be very interesting to see how it plays out.

What of Syrio? I miss that man. Did he survive all those guards?

[CrypticWeirwood]

Jaime-"Where did u find this beast" hilarious!!!

My goodness, what a clever reference to Jaime’s literacy challenges!

[Menos Grande]

Everything is great but the storie is going way different than the books, Jaime escaping, Jon not geting the order to go with the wildlings (what will make him a turncloack), Dany getting her dragons stolen, the game of thrones in quarth...

Some changes are good Jaime was the one that did it better than in the books, as we know the warfare is always the worse parts of the book (not that they are so bad) , they lack the cunning that George has in his political plots and games... in the war is always someone thinking "Ok whe have to do X thing and we won" If the POV got that X, he wins that simple.

Anyway I really liked Rob's explanation to keep Jaime close (not in Riverrum as in the books) so that Tywin couldn't make the castelars give Jaime..

Catelyn wont apear as dumb as she was in the book by realeasing Jaime, First Rob let him go away by his fingers, so he cant say it was "his prisioner".

Second if she left Jaime in Jail, he would be dead by the end of the night.. best to hope to get her girls back.

Arya / Tywin was a great change also.. Tywin will be missed and both are building up in these talks. Jon's and Daenery's plot are the ones in danger... and bran's as the Reeds will not go with him to the wall.

[Menos Grande]

Everything is great but the storie is going way different than the books, Jaime escaping, Jon not geting the order to go with the wildlings (what will make him a turncloack), Dany getting her dragons stolen, the game of thrones in quarth...

Some changes are good Jaime was the one that did it better than in the books, as we know the warfare is always the worse parts of the book (not that they are so bad) , they lack the cunning that George has in his political plots and games... in the war is always someone thinking "Ok whe have to do X thing and we won" If the POV got that X, he wins that simple.

Anyway I really liked Rob's explanation to keep Jaime close (not in Riverrum as in the books) so that Tywin couldn't make the castelars give Jaime..

Catelyn wont apear as dumb as she was in the book by realeasing Jaime, First Rob let him go away by his fingers, so he cant say it was "his prisioner".

Second if she left Jaime in Jail, he would be dead by the end of the night.. best to hope to get her girls back.

Arya / Tywin was a great change also.. Tywin will be missed and both are building up in these talks. Jon's and Daenery's plot are the ones in danger... and bran's as the Reeds will not go with him to the wall.

[Hoo]

Can someone explain the rationale beihnd the screenwriters decision to have Xaro repeatedly promising he does not have the dragons. Then, Ser Jorah goes to the masked woman who tells him the one who stole the dragons is with Deany. And it's Xaro. Why, why waste my time with that BS? If I wanted to watch soap operas I'd be unemployed sitting and waiting for the afternoon session of the Young and the Restless. The Fack!

Edited May 15, 2012 by Hoo

[CrypticWeirwood]

Can someone explain the rationale beihnd the screenwriters decision to have Xaro repeatedly promising he does not have the dragons. Then, Ser Jorah goes to the masked woman who tells him the one who stole the dragons is with Deany. And it's Xaro. Why, why waste my time with that BS? If I wanted to watch soap operas I'd be unemployed sitting and waiting for the afternoon session of the Young and the Restless. The Fack!

I didn’t know Xaro was really a warlock. That explains a lot!

Now I start to think that Quaithe is a warlock, too.

[boojam]

Even though I am really happy that GOT was made into a series, I think that Benioff&Weiss have unfortunately bit off more than they could chew. Here's why:

So you would rather just had been one season?

[boojam]

2. Tyrion's chain is secret.

It was?

I don't remember that from the book... except that I guess it was keep from being widely enough known so as spies would not find out.

If George put spies in those chapters of the book I don't remember them.

[Ser Kevan Raley]

The Quorin thing is still happening, according to episode summaries.

Good to know, even if they'll have to do some unnecessary adjustments to make it believable that Jon will indeed "defect" for noble reasons.

[Leuf]

Let's get this one out of the way: Tywin orders The Mountain to start burning and pillaging to find the BwB. Except he already ordered him to burn the riverlands in the last ep of season 1. What has he been doing, and what does Tywin think has been going on for the last 6 episodes?

Arya/Tywin is starting to get stale for me. It was really interesting, but they are beating it to death.

Dagmer isn't Ramsay, he's Syrio Forel. It is known.

I went through this on WiC, but in regards to Jaime killing Alton, instead of perhaps just injuring him or including him in an escape plan. I think Jaime would see him as just slowing him down in any escape, so he can't take him with him. He doesn't want to leave him behind either because he's still a Lannister and has some value as a prisoner to the Starks. His intention is to either escape or die trying, so as far as he's concerned he's never coming back to that cell. So in Jaime fashion he decides he just needs to kill Alton, and I don't think he spends more than 30 seconds figuring out this idea before he's committed to it. Then in a slightly more honorable fashion than with Aerys, he spends some time talking to him first so he's got some comfort. Then he's honest about what he's going to do to him. Then he kills him quickly before he really even has a chance to process it. So he's following a sort of Jaime morality about it. I don't think it's out of character for him.

I WAS okay with the idea of Cat releasing Jaime early, before she gets word of Bran and Rickon, if the show needed Jaime released earlier than that would allow. But if Cat is going to release him in the same episode that she finds out about Bran and Rickon, then what is the point of having her not find out first?

Rose Leslie is fantastic enough as Ygritte that I am taking a wait and see approach on how Jon's story will work it out. I don't see how Qhorin can be captured when they made a point of specifically having Ygritte tell us they wouldn't take Qhorin prisoner. So I don't see how this can work out well, but we shall see.

Three episodes in the row without Ros! If I didn't know GRRM was writing Blackwater I would be expecting they would make up for this oversight by having the entire battle narrated to us by Ros as she looks out a window getting fucked from behind.

[Hoo]

As far as Tyrion chain, how can it be a secret when every blacksmith and apprentice was told to start hammering links.

This is another disappointment. When Dragonstone and Pyke were shown, not a singlw longship appeared in on HBO's screen, yet in the book there are hundreds looming off the coast on both sides of Westeros. In light of this, the chain in the book makes sense. We get no action version of the book where soap opera BS talk and makeup are more important than the events pertinent to Clash of Kings.

[bardgal]

Ok - I posted this on the nitpick thread, but after reading this thread, I thought I should post it here too. Apologies for the repeat (if you've read that thread.) :)

My friend (who hasn't read the books), turned to me at the end of the episode with a look of horror and said, "ARE THEY REALLY DEAD???" To which I responded, "Do you really want to know?" He hadn't even noticed the two kids at the farm. So yeah - there are going to be plenty of people who think what they're supposed to think at this point (that Theon really would kill the Stark boys.)

As for the buildup to Blackwater - I think we'll get a TON of that next week. I hope so, anyway... and some talk about The Chain.

I might be the only person who is fine with all the changes so far. Remember, the books are all written from different POVs of certain characters (in/out of their head), so a lot of action happens off-stage and is only described in exposition by other people, whereas we are getting to see some of those events in the show (Robb and Lying Lady Talisa.) There is also the difficulty of PLAYING a character's internal mental/emotional narrative. That somehow needs to be put into live action instead of happening inside their head, because you just can't shoot that. That's why a LOT of the things that are being changed are being changed the way they are.

I'm not bothered with the changes so far, because I think they're going to work themselves out in the long run. Ones that come to mind:

- Twyin & Arya: Next week (Ep 8) Roose Bolton could show up at Harrenhall. We've seen a preview of Tywin rushing out (to Kings Landing) to help with the Blackwater. I don't have a problem with he and Arya conversing because it reinforces just how smart Arya is which is paramount (she's already killed three people - Jaqen helped with two), and is about to kill another to escape Harrenhall. It gives Tywin a lot more dimension than he's given in the books, which will make what happens later, a lot better. Of course he speaks to her - she's the only other person at Harrenhall with a functioning brainstem. I did love the "My Lord" vs "Mi'lord" from Tywin, only to be cleverly schooled by wicked smart Arya with the, "My Mother taught me how to talk "proper" (which is the low-born way to say it), followed immediately by, "properly." oh. snap. I'm sorry, WHO is smarter than Tywin Lannister? Yeah... that would be Arya Stark.

- Jon & Ygritte: I was worried until she got away from him last night. There's no reason that they haven't also caught Qhorin while we were watching Ygritte bait Jon. Establishing their relationship now, gives a lot more credence to what happens between them later. Otherwise, it might not be very plausible when she comes to his defense when her life isn't at stake. It also helps establish just how inexperienced Jon is with women, and how different Free Folk Females are from their south-of-the-wall counterparts.

- Ghost's absence: I don't have a problem with this. He goes missing all the time in the books, and that's what they're establishing: "He's a Direwolf, not a pet." Ghost chooses to be with Jon, as do all the other living Stark Direwolves (Nymeria shadows Arya.) I do wish they'd do more of this in the series, but there's plenty of time.

- Jamie & Alton: Alton says something to the effect of being a "distant" Lannister. By taking that into consideration with the rest of his tale, he is of low birth and that means not a REAL Lannister. I have no problem with Jamie killing him. We're already seeing the beginning of his arch with this scene, and everything he says to Alton, then his speech to Cat about all the conflicting oaths, and he saved the Seven Kingdoms when he killed Aerys, but no one can see that, so his bitterness is justified. Jamie doesn't know the future. He doesn't think he'll get caught, so his plan, at the time, is sound. He also knows he's running out of time - he's in a PEN (not a secure dungeon like the book), that could be breached by some drunken idiot with a burning desire to kill him at any moment (there must be bowmen in Robb's army.) Why wouldn't he do everything in his power to escape? To not do so, would be totally out of character. Having this scene also gives Cat more reason to let him go, otherwise he's going to get ripped up by the camp before Robb returns, and *POOF*, there goes her best way of getting her daughters back. Going forward, Cleos really was just dead weight in the Brienne/Jamie story line, which is why GRRM kills him off in the books.

- Jamie confessing in front of Cat & Brienne: He did in the books, so I'm not understanding why people have a problem with this. Just because he's not drunk in the dungeons of Riverrun while doing so matters little in the long run. Cat letting Jamie go really has more to do with getting Arya and Sansa back, so her getting the news of Bran & Rickon AFTER releasing him gives her even more justification for her actions. I don't see Cat cutting off Jamie's hand, because that would mean Jamie and Brienne can't have their mutual ass-kicking scene later on when they're taken by The Brave Companions. That's a huge point for Jamie's character development about how he sees Brienne. I can't see how they skip that. Having Brienne escort Jamie alone reinforces just what a baddass she is.

- Tyrion & Cersei: In the books Tyrion knows, and Cersei knows he knows. To play otherwise in the series would be to dumb-down one of these characters and be a gross disservice and insulting. Giving them that scene does three things: 1. It gives Cersei a bigger/better arch by making her more three dimensional than just being one-note evil. I think it's important to differentiate between the Joffrey degree of evil, and her. They are two different people. 2. It gave Tyrion that magic moment of wanting, needing, and instinctually going to comfort her, and discovering where the invisible CAUTION / DO NOT CROSS yellow tape was. In the book, he touches her, she recoils, and we know his hurt because that chapter is through his eyes. We don't have that internal luxury on film. 3. It gives more buildup to just how insane and evil Joffrey is, and that everyone with a functioning brainstem knows it.

- Dany: They're giving her a LOT more to do than they did in CoK. Stealing the dragons gives another note to GIVE ME WHAT I NEED RIGHT NOW that is Dany's only objective in CoK, which is too repetitive and one-note for the TV series. They're also setting up The House of The Undying and a justifiable reason for Dragon Woop-Ass.

- Robb & Lying Lady Talisa: In the book Robb's marriage comes as a shock. This way we see WHY, and we get to see more Robb. That is win-win for the show's ability to tell the narrative vs the books.

- Bran, Rickon, & the Reeds: I'll bet we're not going to see Bran & Rickon again until the last episode (so many non-book peeps will believe they're dead, with everyone getting raven scrolls about Theon killing them to reinforce this), and this season will end with the four of them exiting the crypts of Winterfell (minus the Reeds), just like the book. Next season they can meet up with the Reeds, because they need to separate Bran and Rickon somehow, and need someone other than Hodor to look out for Bran. This way they give Osha more screen time before she disappears with Rickon, and the overall narrative stays the same.

Things I am missing that I think are needed at some point:

- The Reeds - Can wait for next season.

- Ser Dontos for all the Sansa escape stuff - but there really is plenty of time for this, since it's very repetitive in the books, and could wait until next season.

- The cache of Dragonglass at The Fist - since Jon has already gone north, they can wait for this until next season really, especially since it's more The Slayer's story than Jon's.

- Weasel - how are they going to do Weasel soup? I'll miss that if it doesn't happen, but they could get the same outcome with other events.

There are three main scenes I thought when I read the book that they HAD to have this season, and would spend $$ on:

- The riot (which was only missing horses - which is fine, and impossible to film without hurting someone with horses in that space.)

- The House of the Undying (she has reinforced this with her claim this season of "My dreams come true.")

- The Battle of the Blackwater - just hope they don't skip Tyrion's chain.

I still have faith.