[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

[DaveSumm]

I am utterly baffled by the suggestions that Tyrion's chain would be too expensive to do. This is a show that has very frequent shots of living, breathing dragons, city landscapes, 700ft walls.......this is A CHAIN. I can only hope that it's being kept secret (from viewers) so that it's emergence from the Blackwater is more of a surprise.

A Clash Of Kings is Tyrion's finest hour for me, and an ongoing source of frustration that his efforts are completely unrecognised despite the fact that he was a brilliant Hand. As it stands, when anyone in the future says his tenure was poor, the audience don't really have any evidence that it wasn't. A shame.

[StannisandDaeny]

I was bothered with how they took the wildfire from him as well. Still I'm positive Tyrion will get the credit, I even think they'll make it a tide-changing effort later on in the battle rather than the start and not show the city was about to fall before the reinforcements arrived. The Tyrion's inventions caused would then replace the 'ghost of Renly' which would be somewhat hard to do or explain seeing as we haven't had a good or at least memorable shot of his armour. Although his banner would make for a nice enough substitute... They almost can't get around Tyrion taking over for the Hound, I think (the Hound *has* to leave and Tyrion pretty much *has* to get wounded by a King's Guard), which should establish enough heroism for him by itself. A short dialogue of "Who are these men?" as a motley group of guys run by to defend and Tyrion answering "I've been recruiting mercenaries! Someone has to defend this city!" or so and then the chain along with his sortie would be enough to establish him as the hero of the battle. The other side of me says the Blackwater will be extremely limited and a few short action scenes will be constantly interrupted with long dialogues as it usually goes, lol.

Something else I don't like is that Davos is going to lead the ships and thus will likely be the one making the mistake, while actually he is the one guy who was smart enough to prevent that disaster.

Edited May 15, 2012 by StannisandDaeny

[David Selig]

That's sexism with a velvet glove right there. You're denying Cat is acting tough and holding her own in the face of Karstark and even making him back down (something 6 men with swords couldn't), managed to broker an agreement with Renly, is still at Robb's side playing an important role despite her losses, bravely telling Stannis and Renly off when they're bickering, taking initiative when she realizes Jaime is going to get killed and Robb isn't around to decide, making her choice smarter than it was in the books because it is a logical decision rather than an emotional one, telling Robb the whole Greyjoy idea was a bad plan rather than just sending Theon (again making her smarter than in the books, because, she was obviously right!) and reminding Robb of his duties when he's flirting with the medic and being irresponsible. She's not just some dumb woman in the show, far from it. To say otherwise is really an insult to the great actress who plays her so strongly.

It's not Michelle Fairley's fault that the way her character is written in the show has been pretty mediocre overall. Her acting has been great, but what Evamitchelle objected to has nothing to do with acting.

I was bothered with how they took the wildfire from him as well.

Thy didn't took it from him, it was Cersei's idea in the books too.

BTW, my impression is that the writers of the show didn't intend to make the fact that Bran and Rickon are alive and those bodies in the end aren't theirs, much of a secret. They telegraphed it pretty blatantly. It's not a error, they just intended to show it differently than in the books.

Edited May 15, 2012 by David Selig

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I think it's harder to pull it off on screen than it is in the books and make people believe it's them. In the books all you really have to do is have the village folk beleive it's true. Since the show is obviously more visual you would also have the audience at home to think about.

[Evamitchelle]

That's sexism with a velvet glove right there.

Haha good one. I'm the sexist one because I think Cat shouldn't be saying how much she misses her babies once per episode and because I want her decisions to remain hers instead of being given to any random character.

You're denying Cat is acting tough and holding her own in the face of Karstark and even making him back down (something 6 men with swords couldn't),

I haven't mentioned her confrontation with Karstark.

managed to broker an agreement with Renly,

In the books she's the one who suggests sending an envoy. In the show she is told what to do by her teenage son.

is still at Robb's side playing an important role despite her losses,

In the books she chooses to remain at Robb's side because she recognizes that advising Robb is more useful than watching over Bran and Rickon (who are already looked after by an entire castle of people they've known all their lives). In the show she stays at Robb's side because Robb won't allow her to go to Winterfell. I quote :

Cat : "It's time for me to go home. I haven't seen Bran and Rickon in months"

Robb : "You can't go to Winterfell"

Cat : "Beg your pardon ?"

Robb : "I sent Rodrik to watch over the boys. Because tomorrow you'll ride south to the Stormlands."

bravely telling Stannis and Renly off when they're bickering,

One of the few things they kept from the books.

taking initiative when she realizes Jaime is going to get killed and Robb isn't around to decide, making her choice smarter than it was in the books,

In the books there is no impending death threat that pushed her into action. She receives the news of her sons' death and starts plotting Jaime's release, sending him wine to make him chattier for example, and going to speak with him when everyone in the castle is busy celebrating Edmure's victory at the Fords. In the show it's a spur-of-the-moment decision brought on by Karstark's imminent murder of Jaime.

telling Robb the whole Greyjoy idea was a bad plan rather than just sending Theon (again making her smarter than in the books, because, she was obviously right!)

Read the books again, because that's exactly what she does in there. Robb tells her of his plan to send an envoy to the Iron Islands, she tells him that she does not trust Balon Greyjoy because he is not trustworthy. Then she tells him that if he must send someone he should at least send anyone other than Theon. In the show they kept the first part (word-for-word I think) but cut the latter part, which is kind of the most important, aka that she's rightly doubting Theon's loyalty.

and reminding Robb of his duties when he's flirting with the medic and being irresponsible.

In the books he's not flirting in front of her so I'm not sure how you expect her to remind him of his responsibilities when he's hundreds of miles away. And her reaction on the show was pretty tame, especially when right before her responsibility speech she was smiling up at him with a conspiratorial look.

She's not just some dumb woman in the show, far from it.

If you're implying that she's dumb in the books I would suggest that you re-evaluate your opinion of her in the books, because she is anything but.

To say otherwise is really an insult to the great actress who plays her so strongly.

I have said nothing against Michelle Fairley, whom I find to be very talented. I only wish she had a better script to work with.

It's funny you should say that she's only there to point out a stereotype while she has Brienne the Badass at her side in almost every scene, lol.

I don't see what that has got to do with anything. It's like saying that hanging around Brienne would make Cat taller. I think Brienne's portrayal on the show is quite good so far, but that doesn't impact on Cat's portrayal at all. Honestly I think they have butchered the character on the show. In an effort to pander to the haters, they have taken anything remotely controversial, i.e. interesting, about the character, and turned her into a great big blob of nothing. If you've ever taken part in a Cat argument on the forums before, you'll probably have noticed that people usually dislike or hate her for the same reasons :

• The "It should have been you" line she tells Jon when he tries to say goodbye to Bran. Changed to the much tamer "I want you to leave".
  
• Advising Ned to go South, which some people think somehow caused his death. In the show she only ever asks him to stay.
  
• Arresting Tyrion and "single-handedly starting the war of the five kings". It remains untouched, mostly because it's a pivotal plot-point.
  
• Not going home to Winterfell like a good mother. In the show she stays at Robb's side because he tells her to, and keeps complaining that her place is in Winterfell and not in Robb's camp.
  
• Freeing Jaime and betraying Robb. Now they're making her look like she's preventing Karstark's treason rather than committing her own.
  

So out of the 5 main reasons people usually have for hating Cat (and make no mistake, Cat is probably the most-reviled POV character in the series besides Cersei), they have changed 4. The worse part is that it validates all the criticism laid out against her, while most of it is completely ridiculous and unfounded. Not only that, they have also given most of her decisions or ideas to other people : paying homage to Renly becomes Robb's idea, freeing Jaime is done out of Littlefinger's influence and Karstark's threats, sneaking out of Renly's camp becomes Brienne's idea etc. And instead of having her kill a man during the attack on the Vale she cowers in a corner for the entire scene. I would suggest that the writers are much more sexist than me here.

/Rant over.

[StannisandDaeny]

It's not Michelle Fairley's fault that the way her character is written in the show has been pretty mediocre overall. Her acting has been great, but what Evamitchelle objected to has nothing to do with acting.

When she's obviously portraying Catelyn as a strong, intelligent woman and not 'the dumb woman stereotype who should be an example women should stay at home', yet it is claimed she's failing at her attempt, I find that to be rather demeaning. Saying her portrayal is a sexist stereotype, is completely ignoring her standing up to Karstark. You don't have to say so explicitly.

How being given a great responsibility by her King while he could rely on countless men to do his bidding, yet he finds her the best person for the job is sexist, is beyond me.

In the show, they make it seem inevitable that she would have to release Jaime because he was going to get killed and make her decision smart. They make it look like she is doing a good job while Robb is away, not sitting around like a sexist stereotype that would not be able to make a decision without a man by her side rather than make her decision completely emotional, rather than logical. Whether you like this twist or not is up to you, but it's not sexist at all. It shows Cat to be a strong, shrewd woman who is able to make the most of a very difficult situation.

The exact wording is irrelevant, the show retains the basic value of the scene: Catelyn warned Robb against doing something she thought to be dumb, he didn't listen, Catelyn was right, Robb was wrong. How is this sexist? It's merely 1. shortening the scene 2. avoiding having to explain the whole Theon being a hostage thing again, something a lot of people who only watch the show might not have understood / remembered / even seen.

I'm not talking about the books, I'm talking about that scene where Robb's flirting. She's polite when Jeyne is there and it only makes sense she's smart enough not to make a huge scene to Robb in front of his men, imagine how bad for morale it would be for soldiers to see their King berated by his mummy like a little kid? Cat handled this situation well and again her intelligence shows as opposed to Robb's (it seems to be a recurring theme), you'd be blind not to see it.

I agree with you she is not dumb, which is why I didn't say she was dumb. See? It can be that easy. If you want my opinion on book Cat, it would be that while I may not agree with everything she's done, people often forget she just lost her friggin' husband and children and is bound not to be at her best, and often had very little time to make decisions. Capturing Tyrion as a counter-weight to the hostages the Lannisters (virtually) had still seems like a good decision to me. And again people forget how little time she had to react after Tyrion confronted her, and how it thus wasn't her initial plan. But that's for another thread.

If I were a sexist screen writer, and I wanted scenes that showed the inferiority of women, I would not have a hulking badass like Brienne in the background who proves the opposite of what I'm trying to prove by her mere presence. So Brienne's presence does matter.

She didn't partake in the action when the Hillmen attacked, that's true, but she did fight off the 'You're not supposed to be here' dude, a scene that no doubt created a lot of respect for her which I would have definitely taken out and given solely to the wolf if I were a sexist screenwriter.

Making her less controversial is again, not sexist. It's happened to all the characters. Even freakin' Tywin shows moments of humanity.

You think it's sexist Brienne takes decisive action rather than Catelyn, showing Brienne can keep a cool head after the horrible thing that happened to her? Err, yeah... well then. Brienne is a woman. How substituting one smart action by a woman by a brave and smart action by another woman is sexist is, again, beyond me.

Your huge defense rant of Cat is meaningless, because I haven't said whether I liked or didn't like the character, you were saying 'hurr durr the show writers are sexist'. They should have perhaps chosen another tale than ASOIAF, a series with *a lot* of strong female characters, to write for then.

Edited May 15, 2012 by StannisandDaeny

[Buckwheat]

I agree that Catelyn's role has been downplayed so far, but I did not really see it in this particular episode. I loved her scene with Jaime and she showed her strong side in it, which I very much like (still, I hate the idea the LF had to spell out to her the plan that she has to release Jaime). I was puzzled as to why would the script writers need to make Jaime talk about Brienne in every second sentence, instead of the focusing on the topic, but it was still a great scene.

There was far too much blood on Sansa's bed. I do not think she would survive bleeding like that for a week. I wonder what the actresses themselves thought about it.

Overall, I liked the scenes directly from the book the most.

[Buckwheat]

/Rant over.

That was no rant. It was a very good thought-out and well-written post. I agree with everything you said.

[ghost the direwolf]

I loved JOn/Ygritte, Tywin/Arya, Sansa/Shea, Cat/Jaime

The Hound /sansa was weak so i guess no Sansan here, I did not like the fact that suddenly Daenerys to cold with Jorah for no reason since we did not get the kiss, and the all Qarth and Quaithe things. I liked the way in the book Daenerys is very welcome in this city, all the presents given to her. She felt important as the mother of dragons, but here not at all.

Rob /jeyne did not like it .

I still liked this episode.

[Raksha the Demon]

I finally saw the episode, and liked it quite a bit. Although there were a few plot deviations that I didn't care for, the acting was spot-on from almost everyone.

Con's:

Why has Shae become Sansa's new BFF? Shae has always been, in the books and on the show, someone who looks out for Shae first and wants coin and opportunity. Next thing you know, Shae and Sansa will be having girl talk about Boys and Sex :cool4: . What's in it for Shae? Does she foresee Sansa becoming Joffrey's eventual queen and want to be on her good side? Or did Shae want to have a nice juicy secret with which to blackmail Sansa, or to tell Tyrion, i.e. that Sansa had flowered and ready-to-wed?

Why on earth, or Westeros, would the Hound run and tell Cersei that Sansa had flowered? It made no sense. His job is not to spy on Sansa (unless Joffrey or Cersei has recently ordered him to do so), it's to protect Joffrey; I never saw the Hound as a squealer.

Jaime murdering his cousin. Jaime is a despicable person, but he has always displayed loyalty to his family, including poor cousins. Also, why would the Starks and their guards allow one of the most lethal fighters in Westeros to have so much free movement in his pen with that conveniently long chain?

Gregor Clegane a.k.a. The Mountain is handsome? Weird and unsettling. I didn't recognize him; I was looking at the fellow and thinking 'who's that; he's attractive', until Tywin called him by name.

Pro's:

The Sandor/Sansa interaction in the hall, especially the way his eyes followed her as she left; and the intense, though guarded, emotion on his face. Nice acting, McCann! (a bit late to kick-start the SanSan relationship though; it's going to be a bit sudden when he ambushes her in her room during the battle; I'll probably never forgive the writers for making Littlefinger be the one to tell the Hound/Mountain story to Sansa last season instead of Sandor) Sansa was also looking prettier than in the first two or three episodes; either she's had a growth spurt or they're dressing her with more care.

The Dany/Jorah conversation about trust really worked for me; and showed me how inexperienced Dany is at ruling. Jorah was very appealing in this scene; definitely melted my heart. It's nice to see the actors looking washed and wearing light or bright colors for a change; Jorah is one good-looking man.

Pyat Pree is serious Badass!

The Tyrion/Cersei conversation worked as well; despite the character assassination of book-Cersei. Show-Cersei, a different woman, showed how unhappy and insecure she was, even now, when her hated husband was dead and her beloved son Joffrey was on the throne. Tyrion wanted instinctively to comfort Cersei; because he could tell her emotion was real, at the same time, you could almost see that he has felt the claws of his lioness-sister his entire life and was reluctant to get too close to her, the wariness was in his eyes. And she couldn't quite let herself be comforted by him, although she was aware of his attempt to try. A nice scene.

Theon just gets himself deeper and deeper into the Dark Side, doesn't he. Poor Maester Luwin! Good acting all around. I hope that Maester Luwin is going to realize soon that the poor dead boys aren't Bran and Rickon, since it would have made sense, if Theon really wanted everyone to know how tough he was, he'd have had Luwin witness the torture and killing of the kids rather than send him home. And, um, no big obviously Hodor-sized corpse? But obviously the deception works; and the sight of those pathetic little bodies made for a strong ending.

Catelyn's scenes were wonderful. I don't remember exactly how book-Catelyn differed; at this point I don't care; the woman stood her ground against dozens of angry bannermen, one sword at her side, and made them all back down. And her interaction with Jaime was great too, the two actors going at each other with eyes and voice; Jaime was the every inch the chained but unbroken lion mocking her even while expecting imminent death, Catelyn was stern and righteous, fire to his ice and ice to his fire.

Jon Snow and Ygritte, the new comedy sensation North-of-the-Wall! A lot of exposition without any nudity, it was fun and worked rather well; though I wished Ygritte had mentioned that Jon seemed to be totally lost, directionally; I mean, he knows nothing...

Double Direwolf Sighting - Shaggydog and Summer! Too bad it was only for two seconds.

And it's another Roz-free episode; hooray!

[CrypticWeirwood]

Joffrey is too old in the show for there to be a Regent over him. They pretend that Cersei is the Regent, and also pretend that his word outranks hers. That makes no sense whatsoever.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I agree that Catelyn's role has been downplayed so far, but I did not really see it in this particular episode. I loved her scene with Jaime and she showed her strong side in it, which I very much like (still, I hate the idea the LF had to spell out to her the plan that she has to release Jaime). I was puzzled as to why would the script writers need to make Jaime talk about Brienne in every second sentence, instead of the focusing on the topic, but it was still a great scene.

There was far too much blood on Sansa's bed. I do not think she would survive bleeding like that for a week. I wonder what the actresses themselves thought about it.

Overall, I liked the scenes directly from the book the most.

There wasn't too much blood, far from it. If she had been bleeding for an hour, it should look like that. It's superficial, really. Never had an 'accident' like that before, assuming you're a girl?

[boojam]

Why on earth, or Westeros, would the Hound run and tell Cersei that Sansa had flowered? It made no sense. His job is not to spy on Sansa (unless Joffrey or Cersei has recently ordered him to do so), it's to protect Joffrey; I never saw the Hound as a squealer.

You are the first person I have seen to mention that. I thought the same thing. Was the Hound supposed to be hanging around Sansa's quarters anyway?

He would have been one of the last people I would have thought to tell either Joff or Cersei.

That was goofy.

Did he really tell?

Or was it that other , whats-her-name-handmaiden(?)(who I have seen before)... who regardless of Shae's threat told anyway.

I can't remember in the book, ..., but no matter what Sansa did the whole deal would have been impossible to keep secret anyway.

Besides , don't remember when it happens, but thought after the war in the north, the marriage of Sansa to Joff was on Cersei's back burner anyway , even if and when Sansa became available.

[wolverine]

The show continues to make Catelyn a much more intelligent, rational, likeable character. They have now stripped her of most of her blunders from the book (other than capturing Tyrion on LF word).

[wolverine]

I am utterly baffled by the suggestions that Tyrion's chain would be too expensive to do. This is a show that has very frequent shots of living, breathing dragons,

Are we watching the same show?

[Evamitchelle]

When she's obviously portraying Catelyn as a strong, intelligent woman and not 'the dumb woman stereotype who should be an example women should stay at home', yet it is claimed she's failing at her attempt, I find that to be rather demeaning. Saying her portrayal is a sexist stereotype, is completely ignoring her standing up to Karstark. You don't have to say so explicitly.

How being given a great responsibility by her King while he could rely on countless men to do his bidding, yet he finds her the best person for the job is sexist, is beyond me.

In the show, they make it seem inevitable that she would have to release Jaime because he was going to get killed and make her decision smart. They make it look like she is doing a good job while Robb is away, not sitting around like a sexist stereotype that would not be able to make a decision without a man by her side rather than make her decision completely emotional, rather than logical. Whether you like this twist or not is up to you, but it's not sexist at all. It shows Cat to be a strong, shrewd woman who is able to make the most of a very difficult situation.

The exact wording is irrelevant, the show retains the basic value of the scene: Catelyn warned Robb against doing something she thought to be dumb, he didn't listen, Catelyn was right, Robb was wrong. How is this sexist? It's merely 1. shortening the scene 2. avoiding having to explain the whole Theon being a hostage thing again, something a lot of people who only watch the show might not have understood / remembered / even seen.

I'm not talking about the books, I'm talking about that scene where Robb's flirting. She's polite when Jeyne is there and it only makes sense she's smart enough not to make a huge scene to Robb in front of his men, imagine how bad for morale it would be for soldiers to see their King berated by his mummy like a little kid? Cat handled this situation well and again her intelligence shows as opposed to Robb's (it seems to be a recurring theme), you'd be blind not to see it.

I agree with you she is not dumb, which is why I didn't say she was dumb. See? It can be that easy. If you want my opinion on book Cat, it would be that while I may not agree with everything she's done, people often forget she just lost her friggin' husband and children and is bound not to be at her best, and often had very little time to make decisions. Capturing Tyrion as a counter-weight to the hostages the Lannisters (virtually) had still seems like a good decision to me. And again people forget how little time she had to react after Tyrion confronted her, and how it thus wasn't her initial plan. But that's for another thread.

If I were a sexist screen writer, and I wanted scenes that showed the inferiority of women, I would not have a hulking badass like Brienne in the background who proves the opposite of what I'm trying to prove by her mere presence. So Brienne's presence does matter.

She didn't partake in the action when the Hillmen attacked, that's true, but she did fight off the 'You're not supposed to be here' dude, a scene that no doubt created a lot of respect for her which I would have definitely taken out and given solely to the wolf if I were a sexist screenwriter.

Making her less controversial is again, not sexist. It's happened to all the characters. Even freakin' Tywin shows moments of humanity.

You think it's sexist Brienne takes decisive action rather than Catelyn, showing Brienne can keep a cool head after the horrible thing that happened to her? Err, yeah... well then. Brienne is a woman. How substituting one smart action by a woman by a brave and smart action by another woman is sexist is, again, beyond me.

Your huge defense rant of Cat is meaningless, because I haven't said whether I liked or didn't like the character, you were saying 'hurr durr the show writers are sexist'. They should have perhaps chosen another tale than ASOIAF, a series with *a lot* of strong female characters, to write for then.

First things first, I have always refrained from throwing the word "sexism" around when discussing the show's portrayal of Cat. This was actually the first instance, and you'll notice I only said it twice (one paraphrasing you), and only because you're the one who cried sexism when I voiced my dislike of Cat's portrayal on the show. There are 11 instances of the word in your post, plus your original attack. You should probably tone it down a bit. As it stands, every one of your arguments against me relies on my one implication that I find the writers "more sexist than me", which makes your entire post rather strawman-y. I never said that every change on its own was "sexist", I'm only saying that, viewed as a whole, the final picture isn't very pretty. While I do not particularly find Show!Cat a "sexist stereotype" (your words here, not mine) on her own, she definitely suffers from the comparison with Book!Cat. If I'd watched the show first I don't think I would have been particularly put off by anything in her story line, it's seeing what they've chosen to change from her narrative that makes me very dubious as to the writers' intentions.

As for your claim that removing Cat's advice was done because viewers would not remember Theon's situation, I think it's pretty insulting to their intelligence that you think it likely they'd forget a character who has been in 9 out of 10 episodes in the first season. Especially since he reminds them at least once per scene that he is not a Stark, only their ward/hostage. Besides, it's not like they know who Balon Greyjoy is at that point. Also choosing to focus on a 3-word sentence I put in parentheses instead of focusing on the rest of my argument was not the greatest idea. My point was that Catelyn was able to successfully predict Theon's betrayal when no one else was, showing that she was an adequate judge of character and had a good mind for politics. It would have added about 10 seconds to the scene. And the reason I dislike this change so much is that all the other advice she gives in the books has been stripped as well. She does not plead for peace when Robb is named King in the North, she does not show to him that paying Renly homage is important, she does not warn him against Theon.

As for all the characters becoming more sympathetic... Let's compare Jaime and Cersei's portrayal in this episode, since they are after all supposed to be the same person in two bodies. Jaime finds himself in a cell with his (distant) cousin, Alton Lannister, probably half his age and an old squire of his. They fondly reminisce about that time when they were squires, and Jaime tells him that he did very well in his role. Then he bashes his head him with his fists out of self-preservation, and strangles a young guard with his chains. He spends the rest of the episode trying to piss off anyone who ever talks to him. Nothing of the sort happened in the books, except the killing a guard part (but he did with a sword, and not his bare hands). Compare that to Cersei's actions, who imparts some womanly wisdom to Sansa. She reminisces about Jaime and Robert aloud. Then she has a small one-on-one with Tyrion where she muses about her past sins and Joffrey's morality. Nothing of the sort happened in the books. It's also important to note that Cersei had a stillborn baby with Robert instead of a voluntary abortion, that she used to have feelings for him for about a year while she should have started hating his guts on the night of their wedding and never ordered the murder of babies and small children like she did in the books. It doesn't take a genius to see that Cersei has been softened quite a bit, or made "more sympathetic" as the writers would say. A similar thing seems to be happening to Shae, who is mostly acting out of self-interest in the books, but is in the show ready to incur the queen's heart to protect the tearful teenager. Gods forbid a woman be unlikable, amirite ?

Being sexist isn't always restricted to thinking all women are inferior to men you know. Fandom usually has no problem with characters like Arya, Asha and Brienne, because they occupy traditionally male roles, aka the role of a fighter. It's especially easy to see when comparing people's reaction to Arya and Sansa. The former is a cocky, plucky tomboy who talks back to armoured men twice her size, wants to become a fighter instead of a lady, and eventually joins a group of super-powered assassins, the latter is traditionally feminine, crushes on boys, likes pretty dresses and romantic songs about true love. Unsurprisingly, Arya is ranked at #3 on the Tower of the Hand's Top 30 Characters while Sansa is at #18, but also makes an appearance on the most hated list and is routinely berated for being passive, useless or simply a bitch.

And once again your last paragraph confuses me. I really don't see why you think my entire post was based on what I perceived your opinion to be. It doesn't really matter if you like her or not, which is why I never brought up the subject. Similarly, I haven't really talked about my feelings towards the character, though I think it shows pretty obviously. Since all you've managed to get out of my post is that I think "the screenwriters are sexist hur durr durr" let me explain more clearly my problem with Cat's adaptation.

For one thing, I absolutely do not understand why the writers would feel the need to make her character more sympathetic to the viewers. If someone is incapable of feeling sympathy for a woman who loses her husband, her two sons and two daughters and witnesses the murder of her last remaining child before going mad and having her throat slit, I would suggest that the problem lies with them and not the character. By changing the elements of her story line that most of her detractors agreed on, they are validating their complaints and making it the correct interpretation. When they change her active decision to remain with Robb instead of going with her younger sons and have her repeat ad nauseam that her place is in Winterfell they are agreeing with it and saying that a good mother's place is at home with the children and not in a military camp. When they change her motivations for freeing Jaime, turning it from her betraying Robb to her preventing Karstark's betrayal they are implying that she was wrong to "disobey" her teenage son's wishes.

Then they are getting rid of every piece of advice she ever had, stripping the character of an important layer of characterization. Catelyn was raised as the heir to Riverrun until Edmure's birth, and was the Lady of Winterfell for 15 years. As a result she has developed a good mind for politics, and is capable of giving great advice in times of war. Advising to keep Theon close was a good idea, making peace with the Lannisters would have been a god idea, bending the knee to Renly would have been a good idea etc. But everyone around her ignores her because she is 1) a woman, aka the gentle sex who knows nothing of war and 2) a middle-aged (by Westeros standards) mother, and kings don't "hide behind their mother's skirts". Despite all that hostility she still chooses to hang in there and speak her damn mind, and even though she does miss her younger sons (she never expresses the desire to go home to Robb though) she believes she can help her eldest in a meaningful way and fights to remain at his side. In the end all she gets in thanks is a forced vacation to Seaguard with Lord Mallister so Robb can keep playing the king. The show makes her much more passive in that way, because she doesn't even give any political/military advice anymore and because she is shown to be staying against her will. Book!Cat wanted to stay with Robb, which is why she sent Ser Rodrik back to Winterfell and named him castellan, Show!Cat is forced to stay with Robb, and it is therefore him who orders Ser Rodrik back to Winterfell. Maybe you think it's only a minor decision, but with all the other changes it becomes a trend rather than an isolated element. So basically, D&D have taken out this whole dimension to her story line where she has to fight the gross misogyny around her to make herself heard.

tl;dr : Show!Cat isn't so bad on her own, but the comparison to Book!Cat makes her look passive, indecisive and unoriginal, thus making me question D&D's ability to portray female characters that do not fall into the Tomboy or Ice Queen tropes.

[HouseLark]

[M]aking me question D&D's ability to portray female characters that do not fall into the Tomboy or Ice Queen tropes.

They've done well enough with Sansa, Melisandre and Margaery who do not fall into either category. Even Ygritte hasn't really been portrayed as a tomboy so far though I expect that she will further down the line. So far she has been fiery, playful and very feminine. The points you make about Cat are fair, I just don't think that it's accurate to generalize from that.

[boojam]

In conclusion... enough anger that the show isnt as epic as the books.. There is not enough time for the epic to be told on screen, and never will be. The second we accept this is the second we can sit back and just enjoy the show. I dont recall hearing people care about the variations to X-Men or Avengers as venomously as ASOIAF readers seem to care about the differences here. Accept the very definition of "BASED ON". My main concern here is making sure GRRM finishes our books. These shows are a great way to get me through my time waiting. Be happy guys... its not like the writers butchered the show like Eragon got butchered ruining that phenomenal series. This is a great show.

When the whole series comes to an end, supposing I live that long...

it might be interesting to have a poll asking people if they would rather NOT have seen Song of Ice and Fire done as an HBO TV series?

Or maybe we could ask that now?

[CrypticWeirwood]

Are we watching the same show?

What an insulting question!

[boojam]

Actually there's no need for speculation because I just remembered that Sansa's age is given right in the first episode of the series. Cersei asks her how old she is and Sansa answers that she's 13. Which means that she is now 14 and that Arya was probably 11 but now 12.

Seems to me , on the show, they have stopped giving explicit ages to the 'child' actors... or at least I wish they would stop it... since if this show goes into a fourth season all the former 'child' actors will be late age teenagers. Another season or two and they will be young adults.