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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion


Ran
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tl;dr : Show!Cat isn't so bad on her own, but the comparison to Book!Cat makes her look passive, indecisive and unoriginal, thus making me question D&D's ability to portray female characters that do not fall into the Tomboy or Ice Queen tropes.

Why in the world are you using an exclamation point instead of a hyphen? This new!fangled typography is mind!boggling.

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They've done well enough with Sansa, Melisandre and Margaery who do not fall into either category. Even Ygritte hasn't really been portrayed as a tomboy so far though I expect that she will further down the line. So far she has been fiery, playful and very feminine. The points you make about Cat are fair, I just don't think that it's accurate to generalize from that.

Well most of Sansa's scenes are taken straight for the books : in this episode it was almost word-for-word, except when they had Shae threaten a maid with a butter knife (that's what it looked like to me). But I didn't like her portrayal in season 1 all that much, where she seemed overly bitchy to me. Basically I think they do well with the women who fight (Arya, Ygritte, Brienne) or the women who scheme (Margaery, Melisandre) but they have a pretty big weakness when it comes to more traditionally feminine characters like Catelyn and Sansa. Arya's comment of "most girls are dumb" followed by Tywin laughing and agreeing with her seems to support that.

Why in the world are you using an exclamation point instead of a hyphen? This new!fangled typography is mind!boggling.

It's a common way to mash up two words in fandoms.

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So you would rather just had been one season?

Come on, that's not really a good question. We all hoped that the second season would be as good as the first. Imo, it's not, so that's the problem. They are deviating from the books much more in this season for some reason. Why do that, when the books are gold? You ignored my point! Which is: they bit off more than they can chew. It's a very complex series, and tv isn't equipped to deal with it unless they give 2 hours for each episode.

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Well most of Sansa's scenes are taken straight for the books : in this episode it was almost word-for-word, except when they had Shae threaten a maid with a butter knife (that's what it looked like to me). But I didn't like her portrayal in season 1 all that much, where she seemed overly bitchy to me. Basically I think they do well with the women who fight (Arya, Ygritte, Brienne) or the women who scheme (Margaery, Melisandre) but they have a pretty big weakness when it comes to more traditionally feminine characters like Catelyn and Sansa. Arya's comment of "most girls are dumb" followed by Tywin laughing and agreeing with her seems to support that.

That's kind of harsh, it was a perfectly Arya-like thing to say, I don't think it reflects how the writers feel about women. But just o go back to the female characters; Yrgritte hasn't been a fighter so far. As I mentioned, she's been forthright and playful. Obviously she will become a fighter but she's also overtly sexual and passionate in the books. I also think that there's more to Margaery and Melisandre than scheming, both are most definitely passionate women. Where I might agree is that there aren't any examples of emotionally vulnerable women in the show, other than maybe a couple of scenes with Cersei (and of course Sansa). But then, the men tend to fall into a few defined categories or schemer, fighter, good leader, or cruel leader; only Jon Snow and Sam are providing anything different right now, and maybe Hodor for different reasons.

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When the whole series comes to an end, supposing I live that long...

it might be interesting to have a poll asking people if they would rather NOT have seen Song of Ice and Fire done as an HBO TV series?

Or maybe we could ask that now?

I'm glad you asked that question. I couldn't give less of a crap that, after it's all done, ASOIAF was made into a tv series.

I don't care how unpopular that opinion might be.

Books are always better, and I'm not a huge TV fan.

So there you go.

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You are the first person I have seen to mention that. I thought the same thing. Was the Hound supposed to be hanging around Sansa's quarters anyway?

He would have been one of the last people I would have thought to tell either Joff or Cersei.

That was goofy.

Did he really tell?

Or was it that other , whats-her-name-handmaiden(?)(who I have seen before)... who regardless of Shae's threat told anyway.

I can't remember in the book, ..., but no matter what Sansa did the whole deal would have been impossible to keep secret anyway.

Besides , don't remember when it happens, but thought after the war in the north, the marriage of Sansa to Joff was on Cersei's back burner anyway , even if and when Sansa became available.

In the book, Sansa was freaked out about the riot; even though she wasn't seized and nearly gang-raped, men tried to pull her from her horse and would have if the Hound hadn't stepped up to save her and bring her back; I think she saw him cut off someone's arm. She had the nightmare about people chasing and stabbing her, and then awoke to find that she was bleeding. Sansa then freaked out, and started trying to destroy all evidence of the blood, and nearly burned up her room. While she was cutting up her clothes and trying to burn the mattress, her maids thought she was going crazy and left the room, and probably went to get help; eventually they came back and Sansa was subdued and then cleaned and bathed (during which time she calmed down) and later sent to Cersei for lunch (which she couldn't eat) and rather kind advice. It was the only time that Cersei was actually kind to Sansa.

The inference in the books was that the maids, who were known by Sansa to spy on her for Cersei, told the Queen. But the way that Sansa was reacting to her flowering, someone would definitely have known. The way it's written, Sansa's extreme reaction was due to PTSD from the riot (which carried over to her nightmare) as well as the knowledge that she would be married to Joffrey after she flowered.

I don't think that Cersei planned to marry Joffrey to Sansa; but until she came up with more advantageous marriage for Joffrey and/or Sansa, that was the public course of action.

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'First things first', there was no 'attack' in my post. Get that idea out of your head. Thanks. Now then, 'Throwing the word sexism around' is virtually the same thing as making the very extreme (and wrong) statement 'showcat is just a reminder that a woman should be at home with her babies'. The final picture is made by all those small changes, so me addressing them one by one (especially since you brought them up) is no more than logical.

I do not particularly find Show!Cat a "sexist stereotype"

Then how she could possibly be 'just a reminder that a woman should remain at home with her babies.?' ^__^

I gave different options for it, since I, as opposed to you, don't think I can see inside the minds of the screenwriters. Even following your trail of thought, the logical conclusion would still be they did not find it necessary to repeat the fact Theon is a hostage, not 'they want to make Cat seem unimportant and dumb.' Given your faith in the intelligence of the audience, I'm sure you'll agree they'll be smart enough to put 2 and 2 together and realize Cat saying it is a bad idea entails both not trusting Balon and not trusting Theon. Or that she did not trust Theon, but thought it smarter to question Balon's loyalty to get her point across than doubt Robb's good friend. Or that they want the audience to think for themselves and maybe say 'hmm, maybe Cat wasn't too fond of Theon to begin with...?', look back and watch the episodes again for clues. You see, many possible theories. But no, out of all possible options, it has to be 'we want to make Cat seem dumb an irrelevant.'

As for Jaime, some of the audience may be shocked, but I'm pretty sure a lot of them will find him badass because of that scene as well. Sympathy can be gained on different levels, and a lot of people have weird taste.

Yes, Cersei and Shae are way nicer in the series (it wasn't very difficult to do however, both of them are still pretty iffy and in Shae's case it doesn't even make much sense). That's what I'm saying. As for unlikeable women, now that I think of it Melisandre is pretty unlikeable in the show compared to the book, and Margaery doesn't appear very nice either, especially not as innocent as she was in the book. Whory and vainglorious, more likely. Of course, you can hardly speak of this in absolutes because opinions will differ on that. Again though, rather than attribute it to 'hurr, woman cannot be unlikeable! They have to fit in a nice little frame!' you could also think positively and attribute this to the show wanting to stress the fact there are no 'wholly evil' or 'wholly good' characters (something GRRM really stresses on, even in interviews), something that is easier to get across in the books through their thoughts and the masses of information you get compared to a little bit of screentime.

The character's popularity among fans is obsolete to the screenwriter's intentions which we're discussing. I don't see why you brought that up.

From your huge defence of Cat and your assumption I was implying she was dumb I took it you thought I was a Cat-hater. It may not have been very relevant, but I thought I'd point it out I'm not a Cat-hater, on the contrary, while I was at it.

Robb tells Cat not to go home in the show. I interpret that as Cat is competent, she doesn't have to go home because she is too freakin' important. That makes her appear much smarter than when she stays of her own will and then fucks up. As in being wrong, the 'Jaime would have died and had no more purpose anyway' argument you can make in the show quickly turns that around.

It could be that I just don't remember it, but the scene where Catelyn stands up to Karstark is Show-only as I recall it. Why make up an extra scene like that when you're only trying to put Cat down?

Catelyn was simplified, but then not one show character has been as complete as it was in the books, it simply seems to me you're paying more attention to her missing scenes than any others. The basis is still there: she's clearly a strong-willed woman who does give good advice even if she didn't say everything she said in the books and is counted upon, and I'm sure most people (especially those who haven't read the books) will see her that way. If you don't like her in the adaption, that's all up to you, but don't blame it on sexism, because that's just ridiculous. Asoiaf is like the worst series you could ever use to attempt to get a sexist message across, lol. A lot of what you say has nothing to do with the screenwriters anyway, but are simply things that happen in the story regardless and can be brought down to the fact that Westeros just isn't a very nice place for women, or people in general ^__^

I could be here complaining about how Jon Snow is a complete pussy in the show who gets repeatedly owned by Ygritte (as well as everyone else) and bring that down to sexism as well, but since it makes little sense to me I'd rather look for other less nonsensical reasons.

Edited by StannisandDaeny
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A dialogue-heavy episode, but the dialogue was for the most part quite interesting. Episode 6 was more exciting though.

Good:

  • Maisie's best scene so far with Charles Dance. The interesting thing is that Arya didn't actually meet Tywin like this in the novel, IIRC, but it still works. And it makes sense that she feels tempted to kill Tywin. This scene not only represents an opportunity for the writers to make their own (minor) changes to the screen adaptation, but it also gives Maisie some screentime and an opportunity to show her acting skills.
  • The scene with Tyrion and Cersei. Another scene that I don't remember from the novel, but still fits in with the rest of the story. It was a nice, interesting touch to let Tyrion show a hint of sympathy for her sobbing sister, and see Cersei's reaction (as if she was saying "I'm crying and need some comfort, but not from you").

Bad:

  • The scene with the Kingslayer and the other guy in the pen. This scene dragged on for too long, especially when considering the relative unimportance of the scene (they could have cut to the 'climax' of the scene much earlier, without all the filler dialogue). It's the first time in this season that I feel that a scene is way too long.

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There wasn't too much blood, far from it. If she had been bleeding for an hour, it should look like that. It's superficial, really. Never had an 'accident' like that before, assuming you're a girl?

Yup, I am a girl, and still think there was too much blood for her first time, I have always heard girls saying that the first time, there was almost nothing. You say, she might have been bleeding for an hour, but they show that much blood that she could have been bleeding the whole week. At least in my experience.

I think the blood on her legs and some smaller stains on her gown and sheets would have told it quite sufficietly and much more realistic.

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The reason this show *has* to be different this season and beyond is precisely what you've said: Book One largely stays in a very few locations and the stories are not so deeply intertwined and interdependent on each other e.g. the Starks/Winterfell and Dany/Kahl Drohgo. If you really think about it, there is more like 2.5 to 3 "books" so far if you consider that the events of books 2, 3, 4 and 5 overlap each other. Story lines and minor characters will, of course, have to be chopped off. I'm really liking that the overall story archs are being preserved while the characters are getting a chance to break out of their trite portrayals. Tywin is a father to three children and he's fighting a war to secure their future. I think him smiling a bit and acting the somewhat loving parent to Arya is an awesome addition to him and deepens his background. Anyone can play the sourfaced "evil king" character but when you throw in scenes like the feeding of Arya, you make him more whole and complex.

The books are the books. There are time constraints as well as audience/entertainment sensibilities to consider. Not everyone has read the books and piling on character after character, plot after plot, scheme after scheme would leave the average HBO Joe scratching his head every Sunday night. I think they're doing it right by slowly progressing the main story points, hacking away the boring crap and changing it up where it would make some sense in a "real world" Weseteros. They've got a season or two more to really hook us and I hope they get as much time as they need to tell the story. Who knows, maybe we won't have to wait for GRRM to finish it, we'll see a "book 6" on screen first!

Even though I am really happy that GOT was made into a series, I think that Benioff&Weiss have unfortunately bit off more than they could chew. Here's why:

In season 1, there were less characters, and although there was still a lot of background that made the story complicated and perhaps a bit difficult to understand for non-readers, it worked. (Background info such as CotF, First Men, Andals, Targaryen history, the many gods in the series are what I am referring to.) What helped make season 1 more cohesive was the fact that Ned Stark was the center of the storm, so to speak. He was the loveable patriarch of a noble family and most of the events derived from him -- Robert's offering him the position of Hand, which meant that his queen and Jaime were in Winterfell, etc. etc. Ned's BEING THERE set off a bunch of chain reactions, and once he agreed to be Robert's Hand, all the plotting started.

The only characters who were not really surrounding Ned Stark in the plot were Viserys and Dany. They were also separated geographically. However, the writers did a good job of explaining why they were in exile and what they were trying to accomplish.

Once Ned was executed, all hell broke loose, and I mean that in a couple of ways. Firstly, people who hadn't read the books were shocked and pissed that the "main character" of the series had been killed. Secondly, it accelerated the War of the 5 Kings. Thirdly, and most importantly, I observed a splintering effect of the storyline - now, instead of a plot that is very textured/includes subplots, but is basically still about Ned and his family (as well as Dany) it became a hundred different storylines.

One thing that struck me forcefully was how much each episode of season 2 skips around. In the first season, each episode seemed like it spent much more time on each character, and the cut from one scene to another was seamless and well-segued. This season, it runs sort of like this: two minutes with Theon hunting the boys - cut - one minute with Bran/Rickon/Osha/Hodor going towards a village - cut - Dany trying to find her dragons for two minutes - cut - Sansa talking with the Hound for 1 minute - cut - Arya and Tywin Lannister talking for 3 minutes (incredibly uncharacteristically, btw -- he even smiles a couple of times) - cut - Sansa gets her period and talks with Cersei for two minutes - cut - Jaime maunders on with a character - Alton?? - who wasn't in the books for four minutes, strangles him and a Karstark son, escapes - cut - Tyrion and Cersei have a heart-to-heart even though Tyrion has already delivered the infamous line of "your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth"....um, what? - cut - etc. etc. etc.

I didn't want to generalize before I had seen more than half of series 2, but this fragmented style of filming book 2 is disorienting and annoying. I understand that this might seem natural because there are 5 kings in the land, so naturally everyone will be all over the place, but what happens when even more characters are added as the series progresses? Will we only see half a minute of each character, unable to savor the longer interactions we enjoyed in season 1? It appears that although the adaptation of the books to TV is well-intentioned, there might be an inevitable downward spiral of fragmentation because of the growing cast, the growing complexity of the plot, and the unnecessary scenes they add to the show. (Perfect example: why on earth did they steal Dany's dragons? If they hadn't made that decision, there would have been extra time to use for longer scenes with the characters.)

Aside from that, my opinion of episode 7 is much like it has been for all the other episodes thus far -- I am left dissatisfied (unfortunately). The only high point for me was John & Ygritte's interactions. I love the actress playing her - she's got her character spot-on and even though in the book I always HATED it when she said "you know nothing, Jon Snow", I thought the way she delivered that line was absolutely fantastic. Grim, and not playful as I had always imagined.

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We always seem to focus on deviations from the books but there are other components which make this fantastic TV.

The striking thing for me is how it looks.I think the sets,the locations,the costumes,attention to detail,the lighting the cinematography are all really top class.I know HD television in itself improves the visual experience,but it looks to me the HBO are taking full advantage of the technology.

The acting,both individual and ensemble,has been top class.Stand outs for me have been Dinklage,Allen,Heady,Malahide,but I really can't find anyone to criticize.Coster-Waldau was outstanding in this episode,and the good news is we're going to see much more of him from now on.

I don't mind the plot deviations as long as they resolve themselves correctly,and time will tell on that score.Dany's changes look to be an improvement imo.

This is compelling,top class television.

Edited by redriver
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I found this episode to be the most difficult for me to watch. I'm having a hard time separating the books from the show I'll admit. I realize that some of it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things but some of it just irks me. The whole Jon storyline and the Quorin Halfhand angle in particular for this episode. I was assuming that he's meet up with them and he'd have the talk about turning cloack to infiltrate. The "Is your sword sharp Jon Snow?" line was one of the things I was really looking forward to. I'm hoping that the halfhand has also been caputured and in the next episode Jon has to kill him to convince them he's coming over. If they make him out to be a turncloak in the show I will be very pissed.

The continuing Daenerys re-write is puzzling me more and more. Killing the remainder of the 13 just seems like it's gratuitous. It's like they hadn't filled the blood and gore quota for the episode or something.

Jaime's sudden vulnerable moment with his cousin was pointless to me. I would have rather them spend that extra 4 minutes or so on his talk with Catelyn so we could get the backstory on how Brandon and Lord Rickard died and how he really became the Kingslayer and how the rebellion started. Speaking to a lot of people who never read the books before watching, they all of a sudden get a better appreciation when I provide some of the backstory that is missing from the shows. This is one of those moments I believe.

I have also stopped hoping that Meera and Jojen would appear at some point. I'm guessing they will meet them on the road north during season 3. They play such a major role in the Bran storyline that I don't see how they completely cut it out.

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Wait...did you guys actually think Bran and Rickon were dead when you read the book? Personally I don't believe a character is dead unless I see it with my own eyes, and something definitely felt off about that Theon/Reek scene on the hunt.

I actually did! Seemed a bit harsh but after Ned was executed it appeared as if the Stark family was cursed.

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Having seen 7 of 10 episodes I think I'm quite sure that I like the first season better, because it has a more coherent feel.

Don't get me wrong, the second season is once more a gem, but the segments are barely long enougth to get whats going on. I suspect people not having read the books really have to pay attention...

I actually like the changes, because they are very well set and make for surprises even if you've read the books.

Exchanging the Westerlings through some singular alluring exotic beauty was a clever move, because it keeps the character-zoo a bit smaller and still serves the plot point.

Putting Tywin into Harrenhal for an extended period also cuts back on nonessential characters and gives Tywin and Arya more screentime for character-development.

I really like the Tywin-Arya-scenes. Those two actors work so well together.

As for the Tywin feeding Arya scene. I don't think Tywin knows who "The Girl" really is, he for sure suspects that "The Girl" is more than she seems though. Feeding her was no act of mercy. He suspected the poison-dart was meant for him and when he offered Arya his meal, my first thought was he tests her, because he thinks someone very close to him might try to poison him. Having Arya eat his meal, checks if this meal might be poisened, and has "The Girl" think twice to either poison meals herself or accept a bribe to do so. If she has to "fear" having to eat the occasional meal herself, she might even look out for people tempering with "My Lords" food (That's how I think Tywin would think...). The highborn-question is him probing who this not so ordinary girl might really be. I'm looking forward to how far the writers will go with this twist. I suspect they will have Tywin find out Aryas real identity which will force her to flee from the castle in the way portrayed in the books. At that point this additional peace of knowledge for Tywin would have no serious repercussions for later events.

Jon/Ygritte works very well too. Ygritte was one of my favorites in the books and i really hated it when and how she died. I think the writers blew her part up at this point, because it was a given that she'll be a favorite and because in all the gloom going on, she's a bright spot that counterweigths all the seriousness a little. Also she transports a lot of exposition about wildling-background and motivation that is scattered over many pages in the books.

The Quarth-storyline is much more interesting than in the books. I really like what the've done there, though I'd not have had Dany go as "weak" as she does when "loosing" her dragons. The changed Quarth this leaves behind makes no differences as far as the books go so far.

Edited by anaron
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Let us make this clear: The show is not the books, the books are the books. If you love the story in the books so much that watching a different story truly upsets you, then re-read the books. Think for a moment about how unreasonable it is to be mad when a different medium ends up being different.

Reasons why this was the best episode to date:

- Charles Dance (Tywin) is staring to prove that he is the most talented actor on the show. His scenes with Arya have been absolutely outstanding. The growing tension we viewers feel in those scenes around Arya's identity is incredible, and I'm really enjoying being tricked into liking Tywin. Also, the show has so few oppertunites to get the history of Westeros in unless the characters talk about it.

- The Jaime escape scene is a really nice nod to the style of the books, even if that scene doesn't actually take place. The characters in the books, especially the Lannisters, use their superior command of language and conversation to make their moves for the throne. The show has a difficult time doing that because of time (think about how abbreviated the conversation between Tyrion and Janos Slynt was when he got him to admit his betrayal of Ned Stark). They really let Jaime be Jamie in that scene to make his move the way book-Jamie would have.

- People have found the Ygritte/Jon scenes to be slow, but not only is she extremely funny, but their conversations are doing a nice job of getting the history in. That is perfectly set up for what Jon has to do next.

- As they said in the "Inside the Episode" piece, that scene between Tyrion and Cersei was incredible. She has nobody else to talk to but her brother, but she hates him. Her brother has a desire to comfort her but it feels awkward. The Lannisters have so much depth to them now instead of a black and white distinction of evil over good. One can ALMOST pity her in that moment.

- I actually thought the Qarth chapters in the book were pretty boring. I'm enjoying those scenes way more in the show.

The fact that one can easily guess that the burned bodies are not Bran and Rickon is a little disappointing, but the reveal is going to be so much quicker in this format than the books. There would only be what, two episodes where you thought they were dead? Still, this was a weak point in the show, especially since they were trying to make such an epic moment out of it and didn't quite get there.

Edited by A Clash of Crows
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I might of missed something here, but isn't Sansa supposed to of received the anonymous letter from ser Donto's/litlefinger by now ?

It does happen fairly early in ACOK, but this subplot doesn't mature until well into book 3. But people are going to completely forget about Dontos if he never appears on screen. He was supposed to be there in the throne room scene where Sansa is beaten too.

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I might of missed something here, but isn't Sansa supposed to of received the anonymous letter from ser Donto's/litlefinger by now ?

My first post by the way.. Hi all ! :D

Welcome to the board!

I don't have the book in front of me now; but I think Sansa should have definitely met Ser Dontos in the godswood by now, or at least had the letter. By the time they get around to it in the show, viewers who haven't read the book will have forgotten who poor Dontos is.

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