[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

[Warden of the North121]

I think Season 1 was a lot easier to adapt in comparison to Season 2 because most of the main characters were in King's landing except for Dany, Jon, and Bran. This made last season seem less choppy and easier to film. I kind of figured season 2 would suffer from this but I still think they've done really well. Excellent TV; certainly better than the crap they have on TV these days.

[Knight of Ashes]

Never mind.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Knight of Ashes

[Lady of Long Lake]

Why are they making Cersei nicer? Once she gives people to Qyburn to experiment on, there's no loving her.

They made her and Cat nicer last year too than they were in the books. This year they are making Jaime more evil and Dany more bratty.

[bardgal]

I am utterly baffled by the suggestions that Tyrion's chain would be too expensive to do. This is a show that has very frequent shots of living, breathing dragons, city landscapes, 700ft walls.......this is A CHAIN. I can only hope that it's being kept secret (from viewers) so that it's emergence from the Blackwater is more of a surprise.

A Clash Of Kings is Tyrion's finest hour for me, and an ongoing source of frustration that his efforts are completely unrecognised despite the fact that he was a brilliant Hand. As it stands, when anyone in the future says his tenure was poor, the audience don't really have any evidence that it wasn't. A shame.

We've only seen A DRAGON twice this season in all of seven episodes, not counting the two-tails shot. I wouldn't call that frequent. We've seen CGI Dire Wolves more than we've seen CGI dragons who are even more expensive since they have to be designed out of thin air and have not even the slightest thing to "motion capture."

Having said that, I hope we see something of the chain....

[Warden of the North121]

Since I'm fairly new to the board could someone tell me the amount of posts it takes to increase the rank in our info box, I'm already tired of being a commoner lol.

[Hoo]

They made her and Cat nicer last year too than they were in the books. This year they are making Jaime more evil and Dany more bratty.

yup, this show is more and more like a daytime soap opera.

[CrypticWeirwood]

They made her and Cat nicer last year too than they were in the books. This year they are making Jaime more evil and Dany more bratty.

They’re making Dany more bratty in the show than she was in the book? The show writers are good, I grant you, but they’re not that good. ; }

[bardgal]

There was far too much blood on Sansa's bed. I do not think she would survive bleeding like that for a week. I wonder what the actresses themselves thought about it.

It's a normal amount if you've been asleep for eight hours, and have normal to heavy periods. Actually there'd be a lot more if you have heavy periods.

Apologies to the men - but life is a bloody business.

[Warden of the North121]

I have a feeling they're jamming the Finale full with a lot of stuff just from looking at the episode summaries.

It's looking like:

House of the Undying

Jon/Qhorin duel

Arya and Gendry (maybe Hot Pie too) escaping Harrenhal

Probably a poignant scene with Jaime and Brienne (maybe the duel and Jaime losing his hand?)

I'm feeling the first scene between Sansa and Dontos will be in there too

Possibly Theon being betrayed by Dagmer and/or Ramsay and Winterfell's demise.

Perhaps they'll show Bran and co. emerge from the crypts too.

They might keep Davo's fate up in the air.

Lastly, the popular theory is that the season ends with the three horn blasts at the Fist.

I guess they have to do it this way since Episode 9 is presumably devoted entirely to the Battle of Blackwater and King's Landing

[David Selig]

The North must have different standards then, otherwise Robb would require a Regent to rule in his place until he turned 16.

I don't think there are different standards in the North - Ned said when he was leaving for KL that Cat was to govern the North in his stead for a few years until Robb became of age, and when Cat and Robb met at Moat Cailin, she was the one who was legally in charge and Robb half expected her to order him to go back home. It's just that Robb was already leading the army, winning battles and only a few months shy of his 16th birthday and he had no older male relatives on the Stark side, so his bannermen decided to ignore the technicality and put him in charge as King in the North even if he still was theoretically not reached his majority.

[Trebla]

Since I'm fairly new to the board could someone tell me the amount of posts it takes to increase the rank in our info box, I'm already tired of being a commoner lol.

I believe it is 800 to reach "Council Member" and then you will be able to make a custom title. Don't worry, if you keep posting you'll be a freerider soon. :)

[Frumpus]

Then how can Joffrey’s word overrule his own regent’s? It cannot. See the problem? Joffrey could not have Cersei executed for striking him. It is both her right and duty to do so: her right as his regent, and her duty as his mother. The Mad Kinglet has been paying too much attention to the “where power resides” puzzle.

Yeeeaah I'm pretty sure if Joffrey wanted his mother dead, he'd have his way easily. He may be a cruel twit but he's not about to go having his family executed even if they don't treat him with the utmost respect.

[Warden of the North121]

I believe it is 800 to reach "Council Member" and then you will be able to make a custom title. Don't worry, if you keep posting you'll be a freerider soon. :)

Good to know :) what are the different ranks before Council Member.

[Lyana]

Well, it is safe to say that this episode was almost as great as the last one.

Let's start in order of appearance.

Theon made a good impression in this episode, but not as good as in the last one. Somehow this was supposed to be the shocking scene with "Bran's" and Rickon's" corpses, but it didn't have a big impact on me. Of course I've read the books and for some pages I actually thought the boys are really dead. So maybe I'm being a bit subjective on that one. Alfie is still doing a great job, but he was more impressive in the previous episode imo.

Here comes one of the highlights for me - the Jon/Ygritte-moments. Those two are my new favourite couple - they are just hilarious. I've read lots of posts how those scenes are too extended. I would have to disagree on this one. Not only the scenes are setting the Jon/Ygritte relationship, but they also show the huge differences between the wildlings and the NW. It makes the viewers also wonder - "Did Ygritte do all those sexual hints intentionally, or she was just trying to get Jon into her trap?". Plus we get some funny jokes abot Jon's blue balls. There must be something for the ladies too ;) I had some concerns about the Jon/Qhorin-interaction, but the more I read this thread, the sooner those worries got away. So I'm waiting for the important scene in ep.10 (according to the previews). I also hope they have some good excuse (besides budget) about the missing Ghost.

The Tywin/Arya interactions were another favourite moment (have always been since they started). I have to say this again - I'm not a Tywin-fan, but Charles Dance is really outstanding! Perhaps this whole dialog with Arya could be out-of-character for the book-Tywin, but it fits the TV show-character for the best. We get some background story abot Aegon and his sisters, an awesome wide-shot of Harrenhall and the wondering what does Tywin suspects of Arya - what more does one want?

I have to admit - not much into the whole San/San-story (I've just started to read The Feast), so can't really say much about that. Sansa's scenes are heartbreaking as always. Shae defending her was a bit odd and kind of a riddle to me - hopefully the show gets somewhere with that. Can't complain about the Cersei-Sansa scene though.

The scenes with Robb were ok. It was necessary to set up him leaving the camp in this episode. I expect to see more of him and his "mysterious" lady in the next episodes. I got goosebumps by the look Jane and Roose shared.

Not sure what to say about the whole Qarth-storyline. On one side is good to hear Daenerys finally talking with some common sence in her conversation with Jorah. Finally thinking and not just threatening to burn everything. She finally realizes that the people in Westeros are not just waiting for her with the red carpet. On the other side this distrust hints to turn into some dangerous paranoia. Perhaps the show is better with the changes they made to make Daenerys' storyarc somehow interesting, but will we get to the HoU any soon, please?!

Jaime Lannister was the nice surpise in this episode. I disagree that his scenes were out of character for all the reasons already mentioned in this thread. During his dialog with Cat I almost thought for a moment, that he will reveal the real reason why he killed Aerys. His honesty is overwhelming and liberating at the same time. He is an extremely interesting character in the books and I believe Nikolaj is going to carry out the complexity of his character during the next season too.

Sad that we saw too little of Tyrion, but really happy that we have a break from Littlefinger.

Can't wait for the next episode :)

Edited: spelling

Edited May 16, 2012 by Lyana

[Raja]

" San - San "

Oh god , that's almost as strange as Sansa -Tyrion

[DirePenguin]

What's Jorah's betrayal? By being a spy for Varys?

[Ser Hippie]

Yes.

[bardgal]

Shouldn't we be meeting Poderick soon?

This happens earlier, the night she gets the note. There's indeed a commotion that Sansa take advantage of the first time, but I believe it was just a mob of angry people. She then starts going to the godswood regularly. I believe it's at the time of the Blackwater that Dontos gives her the hair net.

Don't forget who the hairnet really comes from, so that can't happen until Margery Tyrell is in King's Landing, and Gran has a reason...

Anyone watching with a non reader who guessed the Bran Rickon ruse straight away?

Yes. In fact, everyone I know who hasn't read the books, has called me in the last 48 hours, screaming WTF WITH THE KIDS?????? So relax. They're going to reinforce that in the next two episodes with raven scrolls to everyone who cares about their deaths. The season will end with the four of them coming out of the Winterfell crypts and seeing a burning ruin. Followed by three short blasts at the Fist (or they might open with that next season, since they still need to find the cache of dragonglass.)

My two non-readers are both skeptical but nervous enough to be bugging me for information.

See? This. Same here.

Then how can Joffrey’s word overrule his own regent’s? It cannot. See the problem? Joffrey could not have Cersei executed for striking him. It is both her right and duty to do so: her right as his regent, and her duty as his mother. The Mad Kinglet has been paying too much attention to the “where power resides” puzzle.

You're forgetting the operative word in your post: MAD. Joffrey is batsh^ite crazy, it doesn't matter if he's underage. Cersei is also female, and females in Westeros do NOT assume power as a rule, so there is that too.

Yeah, AVERAGE person, not every person. Some women bleed more than others. And first period might be differents from later ones. My first lasted for 7 days and I bled a lot more than ever after that. So no, show didn't get that wrong at all as well as it didn't get it wrong for Sansa getting her moonblood later than usual. Not only do some girls menstruate late naturally but there can be other reasons, too. For example severe stress, physical or psychological, can alter woman's menstrual cycle and it's quite obvious that Sansa is very anxious and stressed in her situation.

ATTENTION MEN: INCOMING TMI. IF YOU GET QUEASY WITH "GIRLIE FUNCTIONS" PLEASE SKIP TO THE NEXT POST.

My first time lasted two weeks, looked like Sansa's bed within an hour, and was full of clots. The pill eventually fixed that, thankfully.

Edited May 16, 2012 by bardgal

[Dio Forel]

Sorry man, this episode was so painful I have kind of lost hope for the rest of the series. And as a preempt, I am not a book "purist", but I do love the story and character dynamics, and to be honest, the HBO series has kind of wrecked a lot of the dynamic that was dear to me, and can only be something vaguely similar in plot to ASoIaF for me at this point, and I thought season 1 was great. What is great about the book series is after all the characters and their dynamics, without this, the series is just any other fantasy plot (and GRRM himself acknowledges this). Let's go over what was so wrong with episode 7:

1) Jaimeanderthal - His murder was extremely out of character for him. Some of you have been like "ZOMGZ BUT HE KICKED A BABBY OUT OF A TOWER THATS WORSE CUZ BABBYS R CUTE". Please, killing bran was an inescapable necessity for preserving his love life and the kingslayer part -- need we mention Aerys was a MAD KING who burned people alive in his throne room, and was highly unfit to rule? What Jaime would do for love... well, I can tell you killing his cousin was not (nor was it portrayed as such) killing "for love", it was killing because he was greedy (or "evil") -- and that is completely out of character for him. Jaime is awesome, and a great character has now been ruined.

2) Tywin-or-you-die-or-you-give-Arya-your-dinner - A man who would have a full barracks of women rape a woman of lower class to prove to his son that all women of lower class are whores in that they want a lord for their money -- this type of man would not give a serving girl his meal. He would certainly not COMPARE his daughter to a serving wench.

3) Cersei-iously? What happened to the self-entitled spoiled princess in her? What happened to the one who in the future does very mean things to her brother she seemingly bonds with (or is willing to cry in front of.....) There is a reason why Cersei actually crying for the first time in the series feel cathartic -- and that's because she would never boohoo like she did in episode 7.

4) Ygritte-my-teeth-in-exasperation: Well, let's let it slide that the actual development of the love story is butchered. "You know nothing Jon Snow" was for me a metaphor for the clash of civilizations their impossible love tryst is, not a metaphor for "You aint never felt me warm wet soft innards ye crow". To be quite blunt, she came off more like a whore from in Kings Landing than an strong experienced battle-worn independent wildling.

5) Don't-Shae-Nuthin-To-Nobody-Or-I'll-use-this-butterknife-to-make-you-toast: For those of you who recall Shae's later actions, you know this was not only stupid of her but also out of character for her to try to "save" Sansa (How wrong is it to think of the Unreal style announcement "First Blood!" during the Sansa scene?). Not to mention she really doesn't have any incentive to -- she's a whore/servant, since when did she have loyalty? And fine, fine fine! She is a loyal whoreservant. Then PLEASE explain to me where this loyalty of hers goes in aDoD? She is more loyal to a random princess she serves than a lord who has given her all of what she has, and is even loyal to her? Or are they going to ruin that love story as well!?

So, yeah. As another preempt to the insecure Anti Criticism League, I DO like what the series overall did with Greyjoy, Arya, Sansa, Brienne, C aetlyn. So please don't try to pull that "This guy is just in a sour blue balls mood and is taking it out on the internet, haterz gonna hate" lines to dismiss any valid articulate criticisms of the HBO series, PARTICULARLY this season. It's dropped it's standards pretty low.

Not many quotes have me laughing before I reply in rebuttal but this one definitely did it..

1) The Jaime aspect... Just lol, are you out of your mind? Some little kid, A HELPLESS LITTLE KID, sees me kissin my sister.. damn I gotta preserve my love so I gotta brutally murder him so he doesnt tattle on me.... Dear god lol. I am so glad I dont know you where you consider the attempted murder of the equivelant of an elementary school kid a justifiable casualty to avoid people knowing he is hitting it with his sister. It is just as selfish (not greedy because how the hell is there greed involved in escaping prison) to kill your cousin to escape as it is to murder a kid so your acts of indiscretion go unnoticed. Ummmmmm be a man, if you are man enough to get with your married twin sister you can be a man and suck it up when a kid catches you in the act. Something tells me that if I was cheating on my girlfriend and some little kid sees me and I push him into oncoming traffic, a jury wont be like but wait... he was acting to preserve his love. Um no it was being SELFISH (you know... the word to describe killing Alton that you feel is so uncharacteristic) saying hey I dont wanna be caught I wanna end some little kids potential to have his own life to SAVE MINE AND MY SISTERS ASSES (again selfish btw).

2) Damn it with the Tywin character assessments. He isnt letting the girl run around free in the forests living in the lap of luxury. He is clearly aware she is an upper class northerner lying about her identity (he has alluded to knowing she is lying several times). She is more valuable alive than dead and it would come in handy to have her in a more confused and vulnerable position strategically. And again, he is having random conversation with the girl offering her food, not taking her on a vacation showering her with gold and gifts. He is ruthless to those that are of no value to him strategically or in any possible way. This cupbearer (yeah being his slave is some special honor that defies his character) has potential value and it would be very UN-Tywin like to pass up the opportunity to keep your enemies closer than your friends.

3) Is it really that big of a stretch Cersei losing it like this? She has clearly in the books been shown to be at odds with Joffreys decisions. She went insane eventually and her being tormented inside with what her son has become would be a logical precursor to her ranting and insanity to come... And how do you know she wouldnt cry? Logic dictates that a person who acts as she does very often is running from things she is battling inside.. You dont know her... none of us do shes a character out of a book.

4) She definitely acts like a strong independent wildling... She shows no fear or discretion in anything she says, basically mocking her captor. She speaks not like a whore.. but like a wildling. Shes crazy and in a lot of ways an outlaw. She was mocking the guy. I wont lie I havent really been a fan of this aspect of the show but I understand that a lot of it is for the TV crowd and entertainment value vs being loyal to the book storyline. I dont love it but I understand it.

5) Ummm what does it do as far as Shaes future role in the books? It further shows that there is the book series and the TV series and both have different arcs and demographics to please. It is being a purist to expect every single character to be the same as in the book. This is an adaptation. We cant complain about some changes that dont make sense because they are using the books as a foundation with some aspects nothing more.

In conclusion, please do not say this is hate against critique or any negative feedback. I think negative feedback is just as important as positive feedback. But lets be honest this wasnt logical or articulate. This is another example of trying to seem like people welcome change then just go insane when its a change you didnt envision. GRRM approved all of the happenings in the show why cant we just accept that this show is NOT the books? I didnt go crazy loving this episode but I promise you there were no bomb threats made anywhere on account of my frustration that the episode deviated from the books.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

The show lost me the moment they tried to make THE WHORE relevant....and I mean Shae.

I'm cool with Ros. I'm hope she and Theon get together in the books but whatevs.

Back to The Imp's Whore....I'm so disgusted and just thrown off by what HBO is doing with Shae. Shes nothing more than a minor character and yet the show keeps insisting on pushing her face on my screen and making it seem like she's gonna play some crucial role.

Uhhhh NO we all know what Shae will do in the end and what happens to her as a result. Shes just a whore. Whores should be silent and out of the way unless called up to perform.

This show had some great 1 on 1 moments....its just so sad that ALL of them made no fucking sense in terms of the characters and the emotions they displayed as well as their actions.

Save for Sansa and the Queen I would have given the episode a 1.