[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Every girl's first period is different. Some first "flowerings" are extremely heavy, and some aren't. It's as simple as that :)

Indeed. Actually, it was kind of realistic to me. If I bleed for an hour, it surely looks like that. A whole week, I can't even imagine.

[rmholt]

This is really nitpicky but one thing the books and show get wrong is the amount Sansa bleeds during her period. The average amount of blood over the course of an entire period is 1/8 of a cup. Do men seriously think we hemorrage once a month? This was also an issue in Carrie. Men should consult Judy Blume first when writing a puberty scene!

A first period is anything from a stain to a full on thing.

Also in the book she wasnt done bleeding when she woke up.

It doesnt take much blood to look like a lot.

The reason it HAD to be shown was because this was something she really dreaded - it was the beginning of a horror greater than the one she was already in

if Joff had lived

[rmholt]

ETA: Also, as the Maester says, the boys are worth a hell of a lot more to Theon alive than dead. Why would he kill his only valuable hostages? They pissed him off? He's not that stupid.

Yes, when it comes to "proving" himself he is impatient and a total idiot.

When he couldnt find B and R

he had to do something and there was Dr Evil with the solution. Dagmer is leading him around by the nose, not giving him wise counsel but he doesnt know any better having been away and trying to shed all "Soft green"-ness.

[Ghost714]

Well, actually one of the reasons for my reluctanse to read these books IS the fact that I enjoy the series so much. Firstly, I tend to prefer tv-productions to books. It has happened with Jane Eyre, Pride & Prejudice, Lord of The Rings and with many other "books turned to tv-series/movies" which is why I really doubt that I would think ASOIAF is better than GoT. And actually stuff that I've read here on this forum has only made me more convinced of this. Take this Catelyn's decision to free Jaime. Sure, I haven't read books but from the debate here I got pretty goot idea about her motivations to do so in book universe. However, I really prefer her motivations in the show. Freeing Jaime based on a emotional decision while you have NO guarantee that Lannisters free her children is stupid. And what's even more stupid is that she doesn't even have any way to make sure that Jaime actually gets to King's Landing without being killed on the way which would then result to her daughters death.

I much prefer show Catelyn, at least based on the information here and on other sites I've looked for info about ASOIAF. And this brings me to my second point: I like show characters so much that I don't want to "spoil" my mental image of them reading the books and being influenced by the same characters there. I understand that this might sounds horrendous to people who love these books but that's the way it is. This is something people rarely understand in my way and need to consume fiction so I won't dwell on it deeper. This is a discussion about the episode 7, after all, and not my relationship with the series or books.

I haven't really taken part to discussion here because I'm pretty conscious about my English but I do read this forum a lot end enjoy discussions and debates here.

You lost me with " I tend to prefer tv-productions to books"...But what the hell, I will bite anyway.

I either literally can't fathom what your saying, or I am calling bs. If you actually read the books of aSoIaF, there is absolutely no way you would say that you like the tv show better.

Catelyn's character is way better and more competent in the books. In the show, they took away everything from Catelyn's character that makes some people love her, and others hate her. In the books, Catelyn's character is controversial, each individual makes their own opinion of her. With the show, they pretty much tell you how to view Catelyn, by taking away everything that makes you love her, or love to hate her. In fact, so many characters are like that in the show. They have completely changed everything about Cersei to make her more sympathetic, when in the books most people love to hate her character for what she is. Jon Snow's character is way better in book 2, than he is in season two, the show has found a way to make him look incompetent in every episode, when that was not the case in the A Clash of Kings(book two). The show actually left out one of the things that made Jon Snow's story so good in book two( I am talking about the real reason for why he went Ranging with Qhorin Halfhand).

In a video with D.B. Weiss, he is talking about the characters, and he says that Stannis would make a horrible King. In the books that is definitely a debatable subject, in fact, many readers think Stannis would be a great King. The show has changed Stannis's character into something way more unlikeable, instead of leaving his character the way he is in the books, and instead of allowing people to make up their own minds about the him, the show pretty much tells you how to think, and how to feel about him. So I guess if your someone who likes being told what to do, instead of making your own choices, then yes the show is definitely for you, if you can't make your own personal assessment about something or someone. There are a few examples in the show, to wear the show version is better, I am not saying the show can't be better at times. Even GRRM has said a few times, "why didn't I think of doing that". However, it's much easier to improve on something somebody else has made, in comparison to having to create something yourself. So just because a few of the scenes in the show have been better, that does not mean the show is better, by any means. Most of the time, the books are way better, than the shows changed version.

Another reason for why the books are better, is because the show can't afford to have all the characters in the books. There are so many great characters that won't be able to be in the show, strictly because of time and reasons of the budget. So by not reading the books, you are literally getting the cliff notes of the real story, because that's all the time the show has, and you are missing out on so many great smaller characters that you will never know. If the show cuts a character, that does not mean that the character is not needed, it just means they do not have the time and money to add them in the show.

For the record, I did not list all of the characters that the show has screwed up from the books, I just named a few examples(Jon Snow, Stannis, Catelyn).

I don't know if you just don't like to read or what, but that's what it seems like, that is the only reason that I can think of, for why someone would try to say that shows are better than the book versions. If you actually read all of the aSoIaF books, and after, tried to say the show was better, while giving reasons for why you think that, then I might be able to try and understand your opinion, but until then, you do not have much of an argument at all, without having actually read the books of A Song of Ice and Fire.

[StannisandDaeny]

This conversation is going nowhere.

I agree. At least you gave up on saying the screenwriters were sexist. Well, then again, maybe not. You take offense from Arya's line 'a lot of girls are dumb!' while earlier Asha said 'anything with a cock is easy to fool.' These are just the characters, not stuff screenwriters want to put in there to be mean.

Hodor.

And now for something completely different: I've managed to make sense of Shae's protection of Sansa. Helping her flip over the mattress and stuff isn't that extreme and reasonably someone who isn't Cersei's spy would help her mistress with something she could get away in, putting a knife to a handmaiden's neck then again of course is. But self-preservation may play a role in this: the handmaiden could also have told Shae was helping Sansa hide it and that wouldn't have been good for Shae. So possibly she's not just acting on Sansa's behalf. That doesn't mean I think it was a good idea all things considered, but it might make more sense to me now. That the Hound was suddenly in the room still doesn't make that much sense to me however.

Edited May 16, 2012 by StannisandDaeny

[True Northerner]

Well, actually one of the reasons for my reluctanse to read these books IS the fact that I enjoy the series so much. Firstly, I tend to prefer tv-productions to books. It has happened with Jane Eyre, Pride & Prejudice, Lord of The Rings and with many other "books turned to tv-series/movies" which is why I really doubt that I would think ASOIAF is better than GoT. And actually stuff that I've read here on this forum has only made me more convinced of this. Take this Catelyn's decision to free Jaime. Sure, I haven't read books but from the debate here I got pretty goot idea about her motivations to do so in book universe. However, I really prefer her motivations in the show. Freeing Jaime based on a emotional decision while you have NO guarantee that Lannisters free her children is stupid. And what's even more stupid is that she doesn't even have any way to make sure that Jaime actually gets to King's Landing without being killed on the way which would then result to her daughters death.

I much prefer show Catelyn, at least based on the information here and on other sites I've looked for info about ASOIAF. And this brings me to my second point: I like show characters so much that I don't want to "spoil" my mental image of them reading the books and being influenced by the same characters there. I understand that this might sounds horrendous to people who love these books but that's the way it is. This is something people rarely understand in my way and need to consume fiction so I won't dwell on it deeper. This is a discussion about the episode 7, after all, and not my relationship with the series or books.

I haven't really taken part to discussion here because I'm pretty conscious about my English but I do read this forum a lot end enjoy discussions and debates here.

Ya Im going to bite on this too, even though Im pretty sure you'll never change your mind.

I am not a "fantasy" reader my any means. I love TV, etc.. etc..

But these books, and the rich world within are just about the greatest thing I ever read. The TV show, while highly enjoyable, is not even close to the books. I'm doing my first re-read right now, and I am consistently shocked by how items in Book 1 were foreshadowing events in later books. And the characters!!! I literally mourned them when I finished the last book, and couldn't wait to start all over again.

Look.. the worst that happens is that you start the first book and say "meh.. not for me". But, at least give them a go!

[Ser Piggy Of The Baby Back Rib]

1. The TV audience doesn't need a double dose of how Brandon and Rickard died - Jaime has already told that tale to Ned in Season 1, so we do not need to waste any time on it in Season 2. Especially if Jaime is also going to tell that story to Brienne in Season 3.

2. The Jaime/ Alton conversation was very good, especially when you listen to what Jaime was saying about youthful dreams and ideals. The dialogue was not just a set-up for the murder, but also a great insight into Jaime's own character and how the knight of his boyhood dreams has now become "Kingslayer".

I know there are often complaints whenever an episode shows 'slow' scenes with just dialogue, but often the key action or character developent IS through dialogue scenes. A TV show cannot rely on extensive exposition or POV memories as in GRRM's books, so that sometimes, lengthy sections of dialogue play a critical role. You just have to pause, listen and hear what is being said!

I don't remember that part of season one at all? When did that happen, right before they squared off outside Littlefinger's whorehouse? Secondly, I did listen to what Jaime was saying. Knowing all along that he was going to try to escape, I'm not sure I buy that it was all from the heart and that it gave us some insight into his character. He only starts sprouting that stuff once Alton tells him that he squired for him and that it was the best day of his life. I think he told him what he wanted to hear to serve his own purpose. Jaime even in chains is all about Jaime. The Jamie we come to know who starts becoming introspective and really thinking about what his legacy will be only starts appearing when he loses his hand and his life goes to crap. I think at this point, all he is interested in is being great and killing people.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

I said it was ONE of the reasons and in fact not nearly my biggest issue with reading these books. Main reason is that I simply have no strong interest in them. I like the series a lot but feel no need or urge to read ASOIAF as a book version. There are some reasons that make me feel even less enthusiastic and age thing is one of them though there are other WAY bigger ones, but as said, most importantly I just don't feel like it. There are thousands of good books in the world so I don't really see why not reading THESE books would make my life worse than not reading some other novels.

Why are you in the "Book Spoilers" discussion then? You obviously have some sort of interest in them, or you would be in the other thread. Annoying.

The books are fantastic.

[dab0neman]

This is unfair "booksnobbery." I've read all the books and I am finding that I am liking the portrayals of all the characters on the show better. Even the way the plot is progressing is fine by me. Someone does not have to read the entire suite of books to like/dislike the show and have a valid opinion. The show is its own entitiy. I think, as one who has read and loved all the books, that the books have slightly poisoned my viewing of the show now. I understand the hatred for the show because it does not follow the books word for word now as Season 1 followed book 1. We now have the unfair expectation that season 2 = book 2, season 3 = book 3 etc...

Fuggetaboutit... that is NOT going to happen and can't happen. The books offer muliple parallel stories in the same time line. GRRM repeatedly warns us in each of the books after GoT that this is going on. There's no way to make the story unfold on TV like that and include everything without getting bogged down in minutia. That being said, it's very possible that since time and the stories are getting stretched out and rearranged, there are more chances to put more of the book content on screen since HBO seems to be content with keeping the show on the air for a long time. I shudder to think what will happen if HBO gets cold feet and destroys the show like they did Deadwood after 3 seasons. The horror....

A great part of me is excited to find out the new story being written in our beloved universe on the TV screen. It was the TV show that sucked me into reading the books in the first place which was a stretch for me because I too prefer watching to reading. The same happened to me with the Lord of the Rings movies, another great example of an adaptation that had to make some pretty serious comprimises in order to get the story on-screen. I wish they had 20 hours to tell the Lord of the Rings story instead of the 9 to 10 hours of all the movies. Maybe we would have seen Bombadil?? Let's set aside our snobbery and see what unfolds as I would rather have the show than nothing at all.

You lost me with " I tend to prefer tv-productions to books"...But what the hell, I will bite anyway.

.....

I don't know if you just don't like to read or what, but that's what it seems like, that is the only reason that I can think of, for why someone would try to say that shows are better than the book versions. If you actually read all of the aSoIaF books, and after, tried to say the show was better, while giving reasons for why you think that, then I might be able to try and understand your opinion, but until then, you do not have much of an argument at all, without having actually read the books of A Song of Ice and Fire.

[PatrickStormborn]

I agree. At least you gave up on saying the screenwriters were sexist. Well, then again, maybe not. You take offense from Arya's line 'a lot of girls are dumb!' while earlier Asha said 'anything with a cock is easy to fool.' These are just the characters, not stuff screenwriters want to put in there to be mean.

Men do not have a history of being oppressed, so Asha's comment is not offensive in the way that Arya's comment is.

[Ghost714]

I don't remember that part of season one at all? When did that happen, right before they squared off outside Littlefinger's whorehouse? Secondly, I did listen to what Jaime was saying. Knowing all along that he was going to try to escape, I'm not sure I buy that it was all from the heart and that it gave us some insight into his character. He only starts sprouting that stuff once Alton tells him that he squired for him and that it was the best day of his life. I think he told him what he wanted to hear to serve his own purpose. Jaime even in chains is all about Jaime. The Jamie we come to know who starts becoming introspective and really thinking about what his legacy will be only starts appearing when he loses his hand and his life goes to crap. I think at this point, all he is interested in is being great and killing people.

I don't consider what Jaime told Alton to be a load of crap, I think what he said goes hand and hand with what he said and thought in the books, after we really start getting to know Jaime. I think there is a reason why Alton really bought into what Jaime was saying, and that's because it was the truth IMO. What Jaime said about it was like being in a dream that you have had your whole life, only to find out the dream is more real than your life(he said something like that), that was a good way of saying the same things he says and thinks about in the later books. Same goes for when Jaime said leaving that battlefield was like being taken to prison, that is exactly like how Jaime viewed battle in the books. So again, I don't think Jaime was just saying what Alton wanted to hear, it was just a bonus that that's what Alton wanted to hear.

In the books it is often said that the best lies have the most truth in them.

[Balefont]

< dons flame retardant suit >

< discards flame retardant suit because ninja don't need that shit >

I like the guy playing The Mountain in this episode. He may not be as physically "huge" but his voice was great and his face is way more like I pictured him in my head. Plus, I didn't get the sense that he is prone to "over-acting" like the first Mountain gave me.

[DirtyRobes]

Ya Im going to bite on this too, even though Im pretty sure you'll never change your mind.

I am not a "fantasy" reader my any means. I love TV, etc.. etc..

But these books, and the rich world within are just about the greatest thing I ever read. The TV show, while highly enjoyable, is not even close to the books. I'm doing my first re-read right now, and I am consistently shocked by how items in Book 1 were foreshadowing events in later books. And the characters!!! I literally mourned them when I finished the last book, and couldn't wait to start all over again.

Look.. the worst that happens is that you start the first book and say "meh.. not for me". But, at least give them a go!

Perfectly said! That is exactly how I went through my first read.

Only Real fantasy I had read before was LotR and while I did love the book, I also found it difficult to get through at times. I hear from ppl a lot who 'consider' reading Asoiaf but are worried because their only real fantasy exposure is the same, all they see is the size of the books and just IMAGINE what they're diving into. At first it really seems like a big commitment(atleast for those that arnt speed readers).

All I ever tell ppl is PLEASE just read the first book! If by the time thats over and you can just Start another series Then Asoiaf isnt for you.

I read but im not a heavy reader and after a month on the first book(I blame that on travelling Europe/Thailand att), had to wait 2 WEEKS for book 2, finished it in 3 days. Book store didnt hav a time on the next ones, went on amazon, kindled up & finished the remaining 3 books in 1 month. I believe it would have been less if AFFC wasn't so initially confusing;-P

Bottom Line; PLEASE Read! Atleast the first book whether you're a big fantasy fan or not, its a Masterpiece!, you'll never read a series like this one!!!

[unRobert]

Men do not have a history of being oppressed, so Asha's comment is not offensive in the way that Arya's comment is.

wait, wait, really? You had a problem with Arya's "other girls are stupid" comment?

I just don't understand why everything needs to be viewed through some obscure, fluctuating feminist lens by some of the posters here. For one, aren't the other girls she's talking about the submissive, patriarch following "ladies". See, I would consider that a pro strong women statement.

[PatrickStormborn]

wait, wait, really? You had a problem with Arya's "other girls are stupid" comment?

I just don't understand why everything needs to be viewed through some obscure, fluctuating feminist lens by some of the posters here. For one, aren't the other girls she's talking about the submissive, patriarch following "ladies". See, I would consider that a pro strong women statement.

Of course I did. Arya's "other girls are idiots" comment is misogynistic. Women do not need to disregard their femininity in order to be strong. Sansa, Catelyn and Daenerys, for example. Arya was suggesting that women who don't act like her are stupid; she was not saying that women who follow the patriarchy are stupid.

Edited May 16, 2012 by PatrickStormborn

[gmavridis]

"You know nothing Jon Snow"

Since Ygritte come in play I've been waiting to hear her say that.

[gmavridis]

They're doing the Theon at Winterfell part nicely, I think, although they made it relatively obvious that those were not Bran and Rickon's bodies.

I agree. People who haven't read the books after the scene they were sure that the bodies weren't Bran's and Rickon's.

[servethe_Realm]

The bodies looked ridiculous. It would've been more mysterious had they only tarred the heads and dressed them in Bran and Rickon's clothing as per the book. Also, Theon's worried face at the end gave it away that it wasn't them.

[PatrickStormborn]

The bodies looked ridiculous. It would've been more mysterious had they only tarred the heads and dressed them in Bran and Rickon's clothing as per the book. Also, Theon's worried face at the end gave it away that it wasn't them.

Really? His face looked guilty to me.

Bran and Rickon being alive was pretty obvious in the books, so I don't really see what's so different here.

[Impish]

LOVED this episode. I particularly liked how Dany did some soul-searching, the whole "who am I? who are my people anyway? am I any better than my brother?" bit, for me this COMPLETELY redeemed her cringe-worthy "I will take what is mine with fire & blood rawr!" petulance from the previous episode, which was one of the very few scenes this season I've intensely disliked. Now, it just fits in perfectly with the growth of her character.

The only real WTF moment for me was Jaime killing his poor relative, it seemed a bit gratuitous.. surely a less lethal distraction could've brought the guard in to investigate. But hey, this is the guy that shoved Bran out a window, I have no problem whatsoever believing he'd kill ANYBODY he thought would help him get back to Cersei. They are just reminding the audience of how dangerous and impulsive he is, in advance of his impending release. I do hope they manage to tie in the news of Bran & Rickon's deaths to Cat releasing Jaime.. that is a pretty critical and far-reaching decision on her part.

Love the Jon/Ygritte stuff, I think it will add more complexity and uncertainty (ie, good drama!) to him turning his cloak. (I am assuming Halfhand still manages to pass his final order to Jon somehow, this can still easily happen). Ygritte's first "You know nothing, Jon Snow" was just epically perfect.

Theon -- fantastic. A little thrown by Bran & co. not doubling back and hiding out in the crypts, but this is not an essential plot point and I can understand them simplifying things here (although, how DID they get away then? Theon losing their trail still needs to be explained somehow).

Agree with others that there is really no chance of the audience being "tricked" into thinking the bodies are Bran and Rickon's... my buddy I watched it with didn't buy it for a second. But then you don't REALLY buy it in the books either, for the same reason... we're never shown their actual deaths.