[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

[bardgal]

I would call it what it is: normal human discourse. If folks find what's been said here to be extreme, I can't imagine how they fare in the real world. I took bigger hits in Model U.N. debates than have been tossed-out here.

Normal human discourse allows for people to disagree. Bullying doesn't. Normal human discourse doesn't condone belittling others to make your point. Bullying does. I, for one, am sick to death of pretending something isn't bullying, when clearly it is, and the anonymity of the internet only exacerbates this behavior.

I guess you missed "I either literally can't fathom what your saying, [as if the person wasn't speaking English, when clearly they were], or I am calling bs. If you actually read the books of aSoIaF, there is absolutely no way you would say that you like the tv show better. [implying that the person MUST agree with this opinion.]"

That is uncalled for, and it's simply not true. There are plenty of people here on this forum who LIKE BOTH, or like the changes made for the show MORE than the books. I'm one of them. The world isn't going to end because of it, and no one deserves to be treated badly for having a different opinion.

What's tragic is people not being able to see bullying when it happens, or pretending it's 'no big deal.'

Edited May 16, 2012 by bardgal

[wymans cook]

Some of the folks I've introduced to ASOIAF are watching each season, THEN reading the book, which seems to be working-out pretty well for them.

I told my brother to do this. He is loving it. I think by reading first your expectations are way high. The show stands alone very well

[birdsong66]

I have to say the one thing that I really missed from the Catelyn/Jaime scene was when she kicks over the bucket and says he has "shit for honor" because that taunts him through the rest of the books and I always thought it was such a great line.

THIS. When he later muses about being tired of high born ladies kicking shit buckets at him, as a reader, one begins to see that while their interactions were superficially antagonistic, Catelyn and Jaime both got under each other's skin, and for him, was a necessary part of his "redemption" arc. Of the two interactions, I prefer the Karstark/Catelyn/Jaime scene to the "vows" scene. Both actors delivered beyond expectation, and the "She Wolf without any Fish Left in Her" from him made me giggle, while the "GAG HIM" Literally had me burst out laughing. So much awesome! The follow up scene seemed rushed and rather anti-climatic by comparison, IMO.

As for cutting off Jaime's hand, much as I would love for Catelyn to do it, I imagine they will stick to the vows extracted at sword point, much like the book. The betrayal that Robb encounters will obviously be Catelyn's release of Jaime, which may or may not coincide with sudden marriage. As no one knows about Bran & Rickon, perhaps Catelyn's betrayal will be the devastating event that preceedes Robb's marriage/sex conundrum, the catalyst that sets the whole series of subsequent events in motion. Not a deviation I would celebrate, but given the changes to Catelyn in both seasons, I've come to expect that she will be.....muted for HBOGoT.

[Harimad]

THIS. When he later muses about being tired of high born ladies kicking shit buckets at him, as a reader, one begins to see that while their interactions were superficially antagonistic, Catelyn and Jaime both got under each other's skin, and for him, was a necessary part of his "redemption" arc. Of the two interactions, I prefer the Karstark/Catelyn/Jaime scene to the "vows" scene. Both actors delivered beyond expectation, and the "She Wolf without any Fish Left in Her" from him made me giggle, while the "GAG HIM" Literally had me burst out laughing. So much awesome! The follow up scene seemed rushed and rather anti-climatic by comparison, IMO.

As for cutting off Jaime's hand, much as I would love for Catelyn to do it, I imagine they will stick to the vows extracted at sword point, much like the book. The betrayal that Robb encounters will obviously be Catelyn's release of Jaime, which may or may not coincide with sudden marriage. As no one knows about Bran & Rickon, perhaps Catelyn's betrayal will be the devastating event that preceedes Robb's marriage/sex conundrum, the catalyst that sets the whole series of subsequent events in motion. Not a deviation I would celebrate, but given the changes to Catelyn in both seasons, I've come to expect that she will be.....muted for HBOGoT.

Jaime's quips never fail to amuse me, but I'm quite the fan of the Kingslayer. I think that his character arc is one of the more if not the most interesting ones in the show, but that's just my humble opinion. I think the hand-cutting done by the Bloody Mummers is a good play because those are men that are supposed to be loyal to the Lannisters. Jaime goes from the golden boy that no one can touch to being completely humiliated and destroyed and I'm looking forward to seeing that acted out. Not sure how they'll work that out since I forget if Hoat and Raff and all those lovely characters have been cast, but I'm assuming that all plays out in season 3 anyway. I can't wait to see Brienne and Jaime play off each other. Hope we get to see the horses Glory and Honor eventually...always loved that tidbit.

I think the vows extracted at swordpoint are important, too in their way. Jaime could easily throw them off as being given under duress and the old Jaime would have, but we get to see as he changes that he doesn't want to be an oathbreaker. But however D&D do it will be interesting to see!

I have to admit I'm not a fan of the Talisa-Jeyne thing...I guess in the end it gets the job done but it just feels all wrong. Not my call though, so I hope it works for the best. After all, the RW must go on...

[J_Crews]

Normal human discourse allows for people to disagree. Bullying doesn't. Normal human discourse doesn't condone belittling others to make your point. Bullying does. I, for one, am sick to death of pretending something isn't bullying, when clearly it is, and the anonymity of the internet only exacerbates this behavior.

I guess you missed "I either literally can't fathom what your saying, [as if the person wasn't speaking English, when clearly they were], or I am calling bs. If you actually read the books of aSoIaF, there is absolutely no way you would say that you like the tv show better. [implying that the person MUST agree with this opinion.]"

That is uncalled for, and it's simply not true. There are plenty of people here on this forum who LIKE BOTH, or like the changes made for the show MORE than the books. I'm one of them. The world isn't going to end because of it, and no one deserves to be treated badly for having a different opinion.

What's tragic is people not being able to see bullying when it happens, or pretending it's 'no big deal.'

I guess I can see your point. Sort of. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but, when you express that opinion, you invite others to disagree and to voice their disagreement. I suppose the poster quoted above could have gone about it in a different manner, but I, for one, refuse to filter every word I say and/or type to make sure it meets the criteria of being PC enough before I put it out into the world. People, in general, need to grow a thicker skin, before the world eats their proverbial lunch for them.

[Harimad]

I told my brother to do this. He is loving it. I think by reading first your expectations are way high. The show stands alone very well

I personally watched the first season and then read the first book....and then couldn't read the rest fast enough. I think there is definitely something to be said for reading the books, but I've always enjoyed reading. I personally struggle with some of the differences between the show so I think on the one hand watching first and then reading is a good way to go, but I have to keep reminding myself that they are separate entities.

And while these boards can get "extreme" and we are all fans in our own way, I think it's important to be careful how things come across when the person reading can't see your facial expressions and hear your tone. Friendly debate and disagreements are what these boards are for, after all!

[Ghost714]

Wow. You guys are awfully sensitive. Bullying? Really?

My thoughts exactly. I would not consider my post "online bullying".

[Morrigan]

People throw around the word "e-bully" as soon as someone shows a bit of snark. Ignore 'em, they're pussies. (And now I bet that comment makes me a bully. :D)

Of course I did. Arya's "other girls are idiots" comment is misogynistic.

Jesus Christ, of course not. Are you for real? Arya calls everyone and everything that annoys her "stupid". She's a tomboy and doesn't like girly things, so she calls those stupid as well. That's all there is to it. For crying out loud...

[Ghost714]

Normal human discourse allows for people to disagree. Bullying doesn't. Normal human discourse doesn't condone belittling others to make your point. Bullying does. I, for one, am sick to death of pretending something isn't bullying, when clearly it is, and the anonymity of the internet only exacerbates this behavior.

I guess you missed "I either literally can't fathom what your saying, [as if the person wasn't speaking English, when clearly they were], or I am calling bs. If you actually read the books of aSoIaF, there is absolutely no way you would say that you like the tv show better. [implying that the person MUST agree with this opinion.]"

That is uncalled for, and it's simply not true. There are plenty of people here on this forum who LIKE BOTH, or like the changes made for the show MORE than the books. I'm one of them. The world isn't going to end because of it, and no one deserves to be treated badly for having a different opinion.

What's tragic is people not being able to see bullying when it happens, or pretending it's 'no big deal.'

I said I can't fathom what they are saying, because I can't even understand how someone could say the show is better than the book series. I never said it was impossible to like both, because I like both, I wouldn't be watching the show if I didn't think that. All I am saying is I don't see how it's possible to like the show more than the book series, after having read every book. Again, it's possible to like both, I PERSONALLY just don't see how someone could like the show more.

Truly if you think that is "online bullying" then I don't know what kind of world we are living in, and obviously you have not been on many of the aSoIaF forums, if you consider that post to be bullying. I never said someone was dumb for thinking that way, I never threatened them, I just said I don't buy it. That's my opinion, just like you have yours, if you don't like it, don't read my posts. Just because I can't believe something someone says on the Internet, does not mean I am bullying them, it just means I can't believe it.

[Ghost714]

People throw around the word "e-bully" as soon as someone shows a bit of snark. Ignore 'em, they're pussies. (And now I bet that comment makes me a bully. :D)

Jesus Christ, of course not. Are you for real? Arya calls everyone and everything that annoys her "stupid". She's a tomboy and doesn't like girly things, so she calls those stupid as well. That's all there is to it. For crying out loud...

Your my hero, my thoughts exactly.

As for Arya, and what she says in that episode. Arya gets all passionate about Visenya Targaryen, who was a "great warrior", and Tywin says most girls are more into the songs about pretty maids with flowers in their hair like Jonquil, and Arya says most girls are stupid. This isn't the writers being sexiest, it's just how Arya's character would think. It doesn't mean all girls that wear dresses with flowers in their hair are stupid, it just means Arya thinks the girls that like those songs better than the ones about people like Visenya are stupid. That's just how Arya is, she is a tomboy, who is also a child, there is nothing misogynistic about it.

[dab0neman]

For REAL dawg, I've read *all* the books but I like the show better. Maybe it's my TV spoiled brain cells that make this simpler version of the story more enjoyable to me. Watching the characters interact onscreen with each other and NOT knowing what will happen is making it a good experience.

First and foremost, remember this is a TV show. TV shows tweak with characters all the time. I recall that Spock was very very emotional in the pilot of Star Trek compared to his Vulcan stoicism. Sticking with the Star Trek theme, Jean Luc Picard was a stuffy fuddy duddy the first couple of years and didn't loosen up until season three. But, I know, there wasn't a "Bible" to go off of no canon to be beholden to on those shows. So the true "believers" such as yourself are horrified at what they are seeing e.g. no Reeds, no chain making, possibly no killing of the HalfHand??<<--I'm actually pretty worried about that.

I don't think I can side with your opinion on this whole movie/TV show vs. Books business. Maybe the fact that you require fans of the show to read the books is too harsh? Still, I get it. This season took some adjustment when I came to the realization that things were not going to go like season one. Then, I got over it and stopped expecting things to happen like the book. So maybe I'm an odd duck and not a true fan of the books(I AM a fan) but I'm a bigger fan of the World of Westeros. I'm overjoyed that this show even exists!

Not one person that I have seen is freaking out about the changes that are understandable, changes for reasons of time and budget are fine. Same goes for changes that must be made do to the fact that we can't hear the characters thoughts. Stuff like that, those changes are fine, not one person is complaining about that. It's all the ridiculous changes that don't make any sense, those are the ones

....

So I don't get the whole, "I love the books and I have read all of them, but I like the show better" stuff. Like for real, have you really read all of them or what? Because if you have, there is no contest. Very rarely is a show/movie better than the books, and with aSoIaF being such pure gold, it's impossible for the show to be better. Even if the show was as accurate as possible, it still would not be better, because no matter what they would not be able to include everything from the books. They can't include every character, things have to be on a smaller scale etc etc, it just not possible with these books.

[Superior Glokta]

If you have read all the books, and if you claim to love the books, I have a really hard time believing that you could like the show more.

Remember what Jorah tells Dany an episode or so back....

"I still can't believe that your real"

That's basically how I feel about the show. How many of us here have watched their favorite short stories / novels / comics literally be raped by the heavy handed Hollywood machine? Off the top of my head, just about every Steven King adaptation and Phillip K. Dick story has been fucked up when translated to the screen.

I am simply thankful that this show actually exists, and it kicks as much as it does.

[fede989]

I loved this episode, but I had a problem with the last scene. It isn’t that they choose to make it clearer that those two burned bodies were not Bran and Rickon, rather than they cut the scene way too early.

The sickened face of Theon when he looks at the bodies was great, the screams of Maester Luwin were heartbreaking, and the score for that scene was incredible pertinent, it really wanted to make you feel the same as Theon: lost, confused and absolutely sickened. But I can’t help to think that if that scene lasted a little longer it could have an even bigger impact.

They could have shown the disgusted faces of the people of Winterfell for example, or more facial expressions from Theon, realizing what he has done and his internal struggle in that moment. I mean, murdering two innocents boys is a truly horrible an unredeemable act, even if they aren´t who they are supposed to be. We got to see too little of his reactions for my taste, and worst is that Alfie Allan has shown to be really good at it.

When the picture faded to black I couldn't help to feel a little disappointed with that scene, because of the emotional potential that it had. Still this was an incredible episode, one of the best if not the best of the season for me.

Edited May 17, 2012 by fede989

[J_Crews]

So the true "believers" such as yourself are horrified at what they are seeing e.g.... possibly no killing of the HalfHand??<<--I'm actually pretty worried about that.

Don't worry. According to the summaries/teasers, this is still happening in episode 10. People are wigging for no reason, just because the show is taking a different route to get to the same destination, and because they're hyper-sensitive to any changes that are made.

I don't think I can side with your opinion on this whole movie/TV show vs. Books business. Maybe the fact that you require fans of the show to read the books is too harsh? Still, I get it.

I wouldn't call it a requirement. This whole rigamaroll got started because homeslice said he/she didn't want to read the books and I told them they were doing themselves a disservice. I still stand behind that. If you enjoy the show, you will very likely enjoy the books as well, regardless of which you enjoy more. Why deny yourself that enjoyment, unless you just don't enjoy reading? (which I suspect is some sort of functional mental illness -- and that was a joke, just in case the PC thought police are reading this!)

Edited May 17, 2012 by J.S. Crews

[arifin.t]

Two little things I liked (Aside from everything else in the episode):

1. Jaime: Young men with big jobs - they tend to overdo it.

Karstark's Son: Shh!

(and the look on Jaime's face when Karstark first sushed them)

2. The parallel between Robb and Jon :

Catelyn: You have inherited your father's duties - they come at a price

Job: That's the price you pay if you want to be a man of the night's watch

Overall, excellent episode.

[bardgal]

Don't worry. According to the summaries/teasers, this is still happening in episode 10. People are wigging for no reason, just because the show is taking a different route to get to the same destination, and because they're hyper-sensitive to any changes that are made. I wouldn't call it a requirement. This whole rigamaroll got started because homeslice said he/she didn't want to read the books and I told them they were doing themselves a disservice. I still stand behind that. If you enjoy the show, you will very likely enjoy the books as well, regardless of which you enjoy more. Why deny yourself that enjoyment, unless you just don't enjoy reading? (which I suspect is some sort of functional mental illness -- and that was a joke, just in case the PC thought police are reading this!)

Requiring someone ELSE to read something they have no desire to then deriding them for not wanting to do what you say, I suspect is some sort of functional mental illness, like OCD or a compulsion to control others -- and that was a joke, just in case the PC thought police are reading this!

Edited May 17, 2012 by bardgal

[Currawong]

... Tywin says most girls are more into the songs about pretty maids with flowers in their hair like Jonquil, and Arya says most girls are stupid. This isn't the writers being sexiest, it's just how Arya's character would think. It doesn't mean all girls that wear dresses with flowers in their hair are stupid, it just means Arya thinks the girls that like those songs better than the ones about people like Visenya are stupid. That's just how Arya is, she is a tomboy, who is also a child, there is nothing misogynistic about it.

Exactly. And don't forget that in AGOT, Arya even thinks her sister Sansa is pretty stupid with her stars-in-the-eyes attitude about court life and marrying a prince, so it's not being sexist at all. Even though the Arya/Tywin scenes are invented for the TV series, the Arya we see in them is exactly the sort of Arya that GRRM wrote.

For REAL dawg, I've read *all* the books but I like the show better. Maybe it's my TV spoiled brain cells that make this simpler version of the story more enjoyable to me. Watching the characters interact onscreen with each other and NOT knowing what will happen is making it a good experience. First and foremost, remember this is a TV show. TV shows tweak with characters all the time. ... (snip) ... This season took some adjustment when I came to the realization that things were not going to go like season one. Then, I got over it and stopped expecting things to happen like the book. So maybe I'm an odd duck and not a true fan of the books(I AM a fan) but I'm a bigger fan of the World of Westeros. I'm overjoyed that this show even exists!

Yes. And I would strongly recommend that people go and read / watch that really excellent interview with GRRM, where he talks about the many problems of adapting books or even short stories for the screen, and relates his own experience doing this for just one short story. A sci fi story which he loved, and where he knew the author. It's NOT easy to adapt books for the screen, especially complex ones, and the way GRRM has written the ASOIAF books, where so much background and essential information is given through characters internal POVs, rather than action or dialogue, makes it even harder.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Currawong

[bardgal]

Exactly. And don't forget that in AGOT, Arya even thinks her sister Sansa is pretty stupid with her stars-in-the-eyes attitude about court life and marrying a prince, so it's not being sexist at all. Even though the Arya/Tywin scenes are invented for the TV series, the Arya we see in them is exactly the sort of Arya that GRRM wrote. Yes. And I would strongly recommend that people go and read / watch that really excellent interview with GRRM, where he talks about the many problems of adapting books or even short stories for the screen, and relates his own experience doing this for just one short story. A sci fi story which he loved, and where he knew the author. It's NOT easy to adapt books for the screen, especially complex ones, and the way GRRM has written the ASOIAF books, where so much background and essential information is given through characters internal POVs, rather than action or dialogue, makes it even harder.

I saw that. It was great. I think it was part of the TIFF interview. Good stuff.

[Currawong]

Yes, it was a really interesting interview, and I think GRRM makes it very clear how even tiny things in a story can cause problems when adapting that story for the screen, depending on time and budget. LOL at his tale of "You can have horses, or you can have Stonehenge", but that was typical of the many compromises that have to be made.

Frankly, I don't think ANY adaptation of the ASOIAF books would ever please all the fans, because it is totally impossible to be 100% "faihful" to the books when translating them to the screen, given the way they are all written via different POVs. And there would always be someone complaining about something, however tiny - a favourite minor character being omitted, roles combined, name changes, location changes, dialogue changes, someone's on screen appearance not being what a reader imagined, use of mastiffs instead of bloodhounds (or was it the other way round?!!), 'I thought the dragons would be different / bigger', etc etc.

I am with others who say that I am glad we are getting this series at all. Yes, I have various nitpicks with things that IMHO could have been done a little better, but I also accept that these are considered decisions of D&D as writers /producers. So I have decided to sit back and simply enjoy the series as TV, because D&D are essentially keeping to the spirit and major story lines of the books, and because I enjoy watching such superb acting bringing the world of Westeros to life.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Currawong

[Marjie Eilie Myatt]

I don't mind the humanizing of Cersei through conversations, or the humanizing of Jaime in his conversations with "Alton," nor even the humanizing of Tywin with Arya. TV viewers don't get the benefit of internal monologues and backstory and so forth, and I think that absolute villains don't work well on the screen; it's like producers think we're dumb.

Nevertheless, I'm perplexed by some choices--whether one has read the books or not, and I admit that I have--as others have complained, Jaime kills his cousin and adds kinslayer to his repertoire, kills the Karstark here instead of on the field of battle where it's legitimate, Catelyn knows the senior Karstark wants his revenge and she promises him he'll have it, she knows Robb is coming back tomorrow, and she doesn't know Bran and Rickon are "dead." But she frees Jaime Lannister? It makes her seem like a crazy woman. She's not role-modeling her gender very well at this point. I mean, where does she get off?

And for Cersei to open up to Tyrion in particular; she doesn't seem to hate him for everything he is, as she did in the books. Not a problem if you haven't read the books--unless the producers still intend to send Mandon Moore after him, and all the other horrible stuff Cersei does and says to Tyrion in the future. I don't mind that she's not a one-dimensional villainess, but I don't know if the relationship with Tyrion is the place to establish that. Although all this conversation with Sansa and others about loving your children so fiercely sort of sets up her total grief and outrage that makes her fixate on Tyrion as the assassin later. At least she has started drinking visibly, and we can attribute her lack of inhibition to that.

And I'm sorry, but with all that padding there's no way Ygritte felt any boners! :closedeyes: