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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

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im still wrapping my head around jaime killing this relative.....it is just so out of character for him :( :( :(

He tried to kill Bran Stark, but failed.

The boy was only 10, even younger in the books.

Jaime is heartless to strangers if he can save his own hide (<--- see the lion reference there?).

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I really like the changes to the Qarth storyline; this makes waaaay more sense than what happened in the books. I never understood why nobody ever moved against her in the books; as weak as her khalasar was, somebody should have moved against her while they could, and either captured or killed her dragons.

I'm waiting to judge the Jon's storyline. While I love this Ygritte more than the books, but the way it's playing out is just dumb. Why would Qhorin be so stupid as to leave Jon snow behind like that? The only thing I could come up with was that he expected Jon to screw up because he's a Stark, and planned for him to be captured so they could ambush Rattleshirt and interrogate him for intel.

The music in the last scene was completely inappropriate to the close. They overdid it, and it seemed pretty obvious that it's not Bran & Rickon just based on the rules of TV Drama. I suppose that's inevitible, though.

One thing I didn't like was Shae pulling a knife on the handmaiden; that's just dumb.

I also don't like Jaime killing Cleos Alton. That seems way out of character, even for him.

Out of character? Think again, back to his attempted murder of Bran - a young boy.

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In a lot of ways, I almost felt like this episode was specifically designed to shock people who read the books. There were at least three occasions where I sat back in total surprise.

I liked the Qarth changes a lot. Dany's time in Qarth was rather boring in the books, so I'm glad they're actually having things happen there in the TV show. Xaro and Pyat Pree's coup was believable, and it establishes them as serious and credible threats for Dany. I'm really looking forward to seeing the House of the Undying next episode.

I also like the dynamic between Tywin and Arya, it's absolutely brilliant character interaction. I don't think it's as out-of-character for Tywin as people think. He's in private with a lowly serving girl, it makes sense he'd let his guard down a little bit. I can definitely see how Arya would remind him of Cersei too. I don't think these scenes make Tywin look weak either, he's always made it very clear to Arya that he's her master. He's a master who can be kind to his servants when they serve him well, but he's still careful to make sure they don't get too comfortable around him. In my opinion this is completely consistent with the way Tywin was portrayed in the books.

What happened with Jaime, on the other hand... I have very mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, it was incredibly well-done. I was suckered right along with Alton into thinking that Jaime was a decent guy trying to be friendly. I felt like I'd been punched in the gut when the poor sap got murdered, which is a lot more than I felt when Cleos Frey died in the books. I can see why Nikolaj Coster-Waldau said it was the best scene he'd ever done, and I'm inclined to agree with him. In terms of writing, acting, and directing, it was a superb scene.

My problem with the scene is that it effectively makes it impossible for Jaime to have a convincing redemption arc, as he does in the books. This version of Jaime is a cold-blooded sociopath. He's about as close to irredeemable as you can get. Unless they completely change around his role later in the series, I don't see how this characterization could possibly work in the long run.

Also, they had Jaime kill Karstark's son during his escape, rather than on the battlefield. It makes sense for a TV show, since it'd be hard to build a plot around something that happened off-camera last season, but it makes Karstark's attitude seem a lot more sympathetic and reasonable. (I know Jaime killed some Riverrun guards in the books too, but that was never why Karstark hated him.) I'm also baffled by their choice to have Catelyn free Jaime before she finds out about Bran and Rickon's "deaths," that was the one mitigating factor that made her decision understandable. The way the show's portrayed things, I'd be on Karstark's side.

Edited by Catastrophe

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fascinating episode. Lots of juicy backstory, memorable scenes and interesting changes from the book:

  • Winterfell: Nice to see Rickon speaking, and cute little scene of the foursome on the lamb! The unhinged Theon is a delight to watch - at this stage Alfie Allen has mastered the flipping between utter disgust at himself, to taking pleasure from his sick actions. I didnt get why Theon's 2nd in command called Theon over to look at walnuts!?! Why would that mean anything. Otherwise all the Winterfell scenes were done well. I noticed one or two people asking "didn't they go straight to the crypts" but I thought they went into the woods then circled back? Maester Luwin's AND Theons' reactions at the end were well played - but will watch this with my fiance later to judge whether non-book-readers can guess it isn't Bran and Rickon.
  • King's Landing: Sansa is an absolute triumph - the actress is playing her part so perfectly. The horror at her "blossoming" was pitched well, and go Shae - I know she is an unpopular character, but this one scene brought did her well. I cannot believe we've not had a single Shae/Tyrion scene since what, Episode 2? Seems too long!I really enjoyed the interactions between the Hound and Sansa. Tyrion's chain is still not mentioned - hopefuly next week? Cersei and Sansa's scene was great. Wasnt so keen on the Tyrion and Cersei scene as I felt Cersei was giving too much away and that felt out of character to let her guard down with him - but their dialouge was still fab.
  • Quarth: Where is Doreah? From future scenes from the book, she is going to need a handmaiden still, just so HBO can have more gratutious scenes. I haven't read enough of the comments here (yet) to gauge whether the changes are seen as popular: but I really like them. Dany has been played for a fool by Xaro, the killing of the 11 of the 13 was sinister and well-shot, and the drama has been sufficiently heightened. As with the books I am a big fan of Quaithe - but I wish she was having mysterious scenes with Dany, as opposed to the more "normalising" scenes with Jorah.
  • Harrenhal: The opening shot was fab - finally showing what you feel from the books: Harrenhal is a big desolate and depressing castle full of fear. I am SO glad we get these Arya/Tywin scenes - I like that we see some vulnerability and we get an idea of his feelings on this war. The good parts of this dialouge involved Arya's contribution to the Aegon/dragon's tale. Also liked that Tywin caught Arya's poshness, he is clearing sussing her out - and i LOVED that he drew parallels to her and Cersei as that is how I have been justifying him putting up with Arya and enjoying his time with her. I am also glad he told her to watch her tounge! Please Arya was considering how she could kill Tywin and also that Tywin has Arya pretty sussed out.
  • The North: You know nothing Jon Snow - YES YES YES! Line delivered perfectly. I saw a few people bemoaning Ygritte grinding Jon last week - but this was all part of the book, that she fancied him and wanted to get in his pants, and wind him up about his lack of sexual knowhow. This episode continued that and also gave us some of the best dialouge and understanding of the Wildings v Crows story. Was gripping. I wasn't so keen on the final scene where Jon gets taken captive, as I wanted the scenes from the book where he interacted much more with Quorin Halfhand - I pray this still comes.
  • Riverlands: "In your later years you're more She-wolf, there is barely any fish left in you!" -- what a line. Caitlin was perfect in this episode (the actress does so well with her), and the ruthlessness of Jamie at this point is so well done. That last scene involving Jamie, Cat and Brienne - although set in a different location to where we see it in books, where I think Jamie was also drunk - was so frickin good. Jamie's side remarks about Brienne, his mocking over Ned/Jon... oooh cannot wait for more!

All in all, I thought the episode was my favourite so far this season. We spent good time with each set of characters and were permitted good doses of dialoiuge that explained or questions motivations (Jon/Ygritte, Cat/Jamie, Sansa/Cersei) - but I do think we could do with certain threads being brought out again:

- Where is Stannis and Davos? It has been too long since we've seen them - even a simple scene in the last episodes to show they are en route would've been good.

- All seems too relaxed in King's Landing; Cersei seems oblivious to the danger they face, Tywin is still in Harrenhal and not fussed and Tyrion is just pouring over a letter.

- Tyrion and Shae need some interaction - I think of her as Sansa's maid now, and barely remember she has anything to do with Tyrion.

- I will be miffed if Quorin and Jon don't have more time together - I always saw him as a strong influence on Jon in the books.

- It is time for Twyin to leave Harrenhal to put Arya in a more dire situation; as his servant she hasn't been giving us eyes on the horrendous situation in Harrenhal (beyond when she first arrived) - she seems too comfortable there right now.

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The way the show's portrayed things, I'd be on Karstark's side.

I was on his side in the books. As said a million times in this thread, if Jaime dies they'd kill Sansa (and Arya... ) so it gives here a motherly reason for doing it.

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New Mountain still disappoints me. Comes off as your average Lannister guard.

I don't get these complaints. He was huge, had a big dark beard, and a super deep gravelly voice. He was very convincing as the Mountain to me. Why are people bitching?

Book purists need to understand this isnt the books. It the show.

Are people really going to blow a casket every time there's a deviation from the books?

It's called an adaptation. Learn what that means, please.

OMG will you people shut up already? I guess not, but damn this is irritating. As if every goddamn criticism of the series was a stupid nitpick or unreasonable. As if people didn't grasp that it's an adaptation. As if an adaptation was synonym with "making shit up as we go along". As it "adaptation" was the magic seal against any form of criticism, no matter how badly written a scene may be. Ugh.

And you know what? I've been accused of being a purist... and yet I liked this episode. I give it a solid 8. Weird huh? Dany's story is the only thing I didn't like, because it's just complete nonsense and gratuitous. I pretty much loved the rest though... changes and all (zomg). Because guess what, I like good TV and I don't like bad TV. It's not that hard to grasp.

I'm really surprised that they chose to have Sansa's flowering scene - particularly because she's supposed to be a lot older than she is from the books. Are they counting on viewers to be completely ignorant to women's reproduction cycles?

You sure sound ignorant yourself. Sophie Turner is 16, and she's playing Sansa who is 13-14 in the TV series. A perfectly reasonable age for a first period. Even having it at 16 is hardly unheard of, though a bit rarer. She's a young maid, not a young adult, sheesh.

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I kind of hated the scene with Arya and Tywin

Arya says "my lord"

Tywin says "noble girls says "milord" not "my lord"

then Arya says bla bla taught to speak properly "my lord"

Shouldn't Tywin have been supposed to say "noble girls say my lord not "milord" >_>

mistakes!

Edited by Chronicler

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Oh yeah, I want to talk about a scene that really grabbed me. I don't care for TV-Quaithe's goofy mask much, or that she's just involved with Jorah instead of Dany (and, uh, painting people strangely...), but when she asked Jorah if he would betray her again, Iain Glen's face then was just... OMG. Heartbreaking. I just wanted to hug him right there and tell him everything was ok. :D The actor is really good, you could tell he's madly in love with Dany. Poor, poor Jorah, it's just so sad when you know what will happen. Ah, that face...

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I kind of hated the scene with Arya and Tywin

Arya says "my lord"

Tywin says "noble girls says "milord" not "my lord"

then Arya says bla bla taught to speak properly "my lord"

Shouldn't Tywin have been supposed to say "noble girls say my lord not "milord" >_>

mistakes!

I think he said "lowborn girls" not "noble girls".

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OMG will you people shut up already? I guess not, but damn this is irritating. As if every goddamn criticism of the series was a stupid nitpick or unreasonable. As if people didn't grasp that it's an adaptation. As if an adaptation was synonym with "making shit up as we go along". As it "adaptation" was the magic seal against any form of criticism, no matter how badly written a scene may be. Ugh.

And you know what? I've been accused of being a purist... and yet I liked this episode. I give it a solid 8. Weird huh? Dany's story is the only thing I didn't like, because it's just complete nonsense and gratuitous. I pretty much loved the rest though... changes and all (zomg). Because guess what, I like good TV and I don't like bad TV. It's not that hard to grasp.

Hear, hear! People should be allowed to criticize the show just as much as people should be allowed to praise it.

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Cat is about to hold Brienne's sword to his chest and make him do quite a bit of vowing. I won't say anymore...

I don't see the Jaime from that episode caring enough about anything to do any vowing. It almost would make sense that she takes the hand at this point to impress things on him. Where the hell are they going to fit Vargo in at this point...storylines and characters are dropping like flies.

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My main complaints here is for Jon....... man, he HAS TO be given the order by Qhorin to join them... and it seems they are going to skip this, that is the first real change I'm not fond of !

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I loved the episode. I loved the changes, even the changes to Jamie, which though painful for me as a Kingslayer fangirl, I found dramatically justified, especially in relation to future Jamie.

I really don't have much to say about "A Man Without Honor" except to say that "Baelor" was surpassed tonight, imo.

David Nutter is a keeper. Brilliant director!

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Good points:

- Catelyn's exchange with Karstark. Also her scene with Jaime near the end - and people had doubts about Michelle Fairley!!! That is some great acting right there, she is Catelyn.

- Theon presenting the corpses - even if it's a bit derailed from the books, it just instigated a huge wave of hate inside me (which is precisely what the scene is about). The soundtrack complimented it very well. Also, props to Donald Sumpter in his portrayal of Maester Luwin :)

- Sansa's scenes - very well handled :)

Bad points:

-Bran&co merrily walking around - why oh gods why??? They'd be caught in a split second.

Also, unless there's an unexpected turn of events, I really think they're setting up Dagmer and Ramsey to be one and the same person....

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I am generally not a fan of any changes and quite a "purist", but liked this episode MUCH more than the last one. No plainly stupid careless scenes like Lorch with the wrong letter and dropping dead at Tywin´s feet.

I have no problem with Tywin and Arya, Tywin is not cruel and haughty without a good reason, I find it absolutely believable he would let his guard down as has already been stated. Remember we never got a Tywin POV in the books, and how peoples perception of Jaime changed when we got his POV.

Once I got over the "running away" bit, which is still silly though, I also liked Jon and Ygritte. very funny banter. I laughed until I cried when she mimicked Jon "I thought he was done and then he said turn back around." Also, Leslie really made her you know nothing line work, much better than I had been expecting.

Dany ... we´ll have to see where the show is going with that, for now I am giving it the benefit of the doubt.

Overall the episode was a bit heavy on talk, teh Jaime and Alton scene really dragged.

Still, I give the episode a good seven, plus one extra point for three episodes without gratuitous explicit sex scenes, so it´s 8/10.

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fascinating episode. Lots of juicy backstory, memorable scenes and interesting changes from the book:

  • Winterfell: Nice to see Rickon speaking, and cute little scene of the foursome on the lamb! The unhinged Theon is a delight to watch - at this stage Alfie Allen has mastered the flipping between utter disgust at himself, to taking pleasure from his sick actions. I didnt get why Theon's 2nd in command called Theon over to look at walnuts!?! Why would that mean anything.

Because Rickon has been crushing walnuts all season and Osha specifically talked about Rickon eating them "Rickon can't survive on walnuts"..."I'm fine!" or something of that nature during their lamb scene. Not sure how much more time we could have spent on walnuts this season to give that scene more meaning lol.

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Lol at jamie lannister fans defending his character.

Very solid episode except them making jon snow a bumbling fool again for the 7th straight episode.

Ygritte is KILLING it.

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...and the Dagmer/Ramsay thing...cripes already. Ramsay/Boltons capture/sack Winterfell and take Theon hostage...we don't need to see an actual Ramsay, next season they can cast him and we learn he's been torturing Theon. I just explained the whole plot twist in one sentence so I'm sure the writers can do much better w/o having to turn Ramsay into some super spy who infiltrated the Iron Born at an early age just to take Winterfell in case there was a war where Ned Starks head was taken and the Iron Born had a window to take Winterfell w/ the newly returned prince Theon who they just assumed would be a weak minded, easily influenced pawn to Bolton schemes.

How could that ever make sense?

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