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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

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Jaime killing Alton is NO problem with me. Don't you guys remember all the times Jaime talked about killing Brienne in his mind to escape? So why wouldn't he kill Alton to escape.

Yes, the whole cousin who looked up to him made it more brutal than usual, but don't act like its a HUGE deviation from his character.

And the whole cousin/kinslayer thing is being way overplayed. He is just a lannister of Lannisport, not of the rock. If Jamie is a Kinslayer for killing him, then Robb Stark was a kinslayer in the books for killing Karstark. I think the kinslayer riff is for more immediate family.

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And how does this relate to Theon and Dagmer? Maybe they showed them finding some walnut shells on the trail, and cut it. It's extra weird, considering what he calls Theon over there to discuss. "Here is evidence the boys were here, but F that, lets just kill this family and pretend their boys are Bran and Rickon." If those were evidence of the boys, they should have upped their search. If they weren't, it makes no sense at all.

of all the loose plotlines, dropped balls and missing elements...are we really gravitating around Rickons nuts? They were looking for the kids. Rickon has been shown several times eating walnuts, there has been talk of Rickon eating walnuts, they lost the trail and then found walnuts...they have to attempt to show that the trail has been picked up again. That's it, it's not anything more complicated than that.

it's not supposed to make sense...they needed a quick 2 second plot device...they dont have time for anything else since the show is literally bursting at the seams right now with storylines they cant keep up with in 10 episodes.

While there is a possible return to the crypts I doubt they even have time for that at this point. Blackwater is 2 episodes away and we're going to have to add Stannis in next week on top of everything else to lead into that. I'd bet we dont even see the boys until episode 10. There just simply is not enough time to fit all this stuff in.

Edited by White Harbors Wrath

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So Dany said they couldn't find Doreah. Does that mean Doreah betrayed her and took the dragons because she could touch them without being bitten or roasted?

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Need to see this again, but a lot of it was slow.

Jaime/Catelyn - Fairley played her part well, but Waldau KILLED his "vow" dialogue. I didn't like him killing his cousin because it just seemed unnecessary for his plan. This is the Kingslayer, most feared knight around...and he's not being watched to the point that he can beat someone to death and no one notices? Have Alton fake...anything...and it gets there more reasonably.

Theon - Allen is also nailing his part, thought they did that whole scene well. Going to be interesting to see how the dogs lost the trail since they were, what, 200 yards from the farm and obviously had a trail up to there.

Tywin/Arya - the scene was great, they are just amazing playing against each other. Unfortunately for me, it reinforces a plot hole they wrote themselves into. Arya looking at his neck with the knife - so we know she believes he is a target. Why didn't she have Jaqen kill him before?

Jon/Ygritte - their acting is fine, I just happen to believe about 15 minutes of screen time was wasted on snow, walking and blue balls.

Dany/Qarth - Interesting...even though he has only been on screen for like 30 seconds, Jorah still rocks.each scene. Not sure how I feel about the PP/XXD - I guess the biggest thing for me out of it is why - why would XXD want to do that?

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So they picked up the trail and then at that moment, they decide it's time to give up, and just kill a few random folks and pretend they killed the kids? That makes no sense at all.

Next episode is The Prince of Winterfell, there is plenty of time for a 2 minutes scene with the four of them in the crypts between when Yara arrives, mocks Theon and then Ramsey arrives and burns the place to the ground. It gives them a 2 week Clffhanger until we see the four of them walking out of the ruins in Ep 10.

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This is just my opinion, and its been a while since I've read book two, but I found myself thinking two things throughout the episode... the first was - wow, was ANYTHING from the book actually in this episode? In the first book the liberties were few and for the most part good decisions to further the story in the truncated form they had to, but now I'm watching it and its almost like fan fic to me its so different. Its not the cutting of huge subplots (why waste time introducing Florian is you have no intention of using him?), but the active adding in new ones as well.

The second - and this is personal opinion, of course - is it seems that the further and further away they get from the source material, the more forced and even at times awkward it feels. The way they changed the nature of Jamie's escape, in my opinion, changed fundamental aspects of the character. Ygritte's relentless 'flirtations' with John came off as juvenile and forced to me. For Tyrion and Cersi to go from vile threats to heartfelt one-to-one's seemed off. All Dany is at this point is begging and whining by turns. The first season was so incredibly good, but I've been uninspired by recent episodes, perhaps because they raised the bar so high to begin.

I don't doubt that Martin is being consulted a great deal and I expected and therefor have a great deal of patince for the liscence they need to be able to get where they want to get in the time allowed... but moments like Jamie's conversation with his cousin, great as it was, seemed to be a huge chunk of time that could have been better used introducing Tyrion's chain, referencing the wildfire that would be so crucial to the finale or otherwise advancing the story along the lines of the book itself. Ditto the interaction between Arya and Tywin which I also think is superbly done... that is a LOT of time spent in one episode which does almost nothing to further the story while so many other seemingly crucial aspects are being cut.

Moreover, it seems at times like they might have cut the episode down to maybe an hour and twenty minutes to successfully tell the story they wanted to tell, but then had to slash another 15 minutes or so leaving certain scenes lurching (like the walnuts thing - did they find walnuts on the trail before reaching the house with the orphans? If so then why drop the pursuit if they found the walnuts since they're clearly on the right track?).

Just my two cents. The acting is still stellar, the production values off the charts. I just wish they would adhere a little more closely to the story the fans have spent years loving and years more anticipating being seen on the screen.

Edited by Mercurial

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They really are changing some things. Many have been good and necessary but others just baffle me.

I was little disappointed with Jaime changes especially after watching the Inside the Episode thing.

At this rate I wouldn't be surprised if Cat cuts Jaime's hand. :/

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Jamie killing his cousin serves to remind the audience just how much of an asshole he is. And as he did say to Cersei in season one, he'll kill everyone to be together with her.

I imagine Jon will Kill Quorin in Ep 10, aptly named Valar Morghulis. Probably leaving the audience thinking he betrayed his vows (and then to be revealed he did on orders next season). Seems like a good way to wrap up his storyline this season.

Theon - Allen is also nailing his part, thought they did that whole scene well. Going to be interesting to see how the dogs lost the trail since they were, what, 200 yards from the farm and obviously had a trail up to there.

Well, Rickon commmented how the one kid was a good tree climber (or some such) so it is possible they never went to the village and the cracked chestnuts were from the millers boys. On a side note finding cracked chestnuts in a homestead is a piss poor reason for thinking youve found the escapees.

EDIT - I dont see why Bran has to go back to Winterfell. I think he'll just continue on. It makes zero sense to go back.

Edited by blasted_saber

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They should have added in that the Millers boys could possibly have been Theon's. For me, that's the point Theon really changes in the books.

Also, why do we not know Jon is a warg yet?? If they are still leading up to a fight between Jon and Halfhand, why would Halfhand let Jon kill him? How will they explain a seasoned ranger, a legend in his own time, letting a green boy,who's only claim to anything is accidently killing a white, kill him?

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So Dany said they couldn't find Doreah. Does that mean Doreah betrayed her and took the dragons because she could touch them without being bitten or roasted?

No, it doesn't have to mean that. My guess is that she is in on the capture, but she doesn't have to be - with the power it seems the warlocks can wield, capturing three cats that were all ready in cages doesn't seem too difficult.

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Jaime killing Alton is NO problem with me. Don't you guys remember all the times Jaime talked about killing Brienne in his mind to escape? So why wouldn't he kill Alton to escape.

Yes, the whole cousin who looked up to him made it more brutal than usual, but don't act like its a HUGE deviation from his character.

Yeah. Even in the books, he doesn't care much about more distant relatives, es evidenced by his reaction to the death of Stefford Lannister.

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Hmmm really? I didn't take it that way at all. I get the vibe he actually really likes/respects Arya (well as much as he can respect a little girl cup-bearer anyway). I'll have to rewind but I really didn't get that.

I think the point is kind of that he can like and respect even a child and still use them - even have them killed - if it seems justified in the moment.

I also initially got the impression that he was using her as a food-taster, but then he didn't eat any of it, just sent her off to the kitchens to finish up... so that kind of derailed that suspicion.

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I wish the people complaining about the changes would just realize that it is going to happen and watch the show for what it is. Which is a very well done adaptation of a great book series with a whole lot of storylines. Yes, they have changed minor details and how certain plots play out, they have to do it for a TV/Drama/HBO audience. But the major plot points are all still there. Name me an adaptation that 100% follows the source material and I will name you a liar.

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I thought last night's episode was way too big a deviation from the books. I HATED the new Mountain. His appearence got seared into my mind after the way they introduced him last season and re-casting the role ruins that for me.

I had the feeling that "Talisa" was actually Jeyne Westerling last night just confirmed it for me.

I didn't like the way Jaime shanked Alton Lannister in the cage because as others have said it makes his redemption more difficult.

I understand Dany's stuff had to get spiced up for TV but I wonder if what took place last night is going to affect how Strong Belwas and Ser Barristan the Bold find their way to her. And I am worried about how the House of the Undying will be handled. On a lighter note my mother who doesn't watch at all saw a couple of Dany's scenes and announced that she hates her character.

And I'm not going to hide the fact that I kind of like the softer Tywin Lannister.

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Side note: when I am teasing the Purists, I am having a bit of fun with you. I am always amused by fans of source material complaining about changes in adaptations. I don't understand why the people who hate the show continue to watch it, but that's not for me to choose what they do. As for complaining about the show, no worries here, I've had plenty for the 17 of these threads we've made so far...

One episode is about an hour long, you can dislike one scene/character portrayal and still enjoy the rest. It's not like I love *everything* that's in the books either. Jon usually bores me to tears for example, but I've still read the series twice (without skipping his chapters).

I'm not a fan of Jaime's new escape plan, mainly because I find it a completely stupid one. Did Jaime really expect to make it out of the Riverlands alone, after months of malnutrition and inactivity ? I doubt he would have killed a cousin for such a lousy shot at freedom. I'm also amused that Robb put one of his Lord's heir on guard duty like a common soldier, but I guess you could say he wanted someone reliable to watch over the Kingslayer. Apparently D&D are increasing Jaime's doucheness factor while decreasing Cersei's. That whole "is it the price for our sins ?" strikes me as really off, especially with Tyrion as audience. After all she's the one who said "You win or you die, there is no middle ground".

The worse change was altering Cat's motivation to free Jaime though. Yes, it makes sense within the show because Karstark is still in camp and out for Jaime's blood. It was bad enough when they had Tyrion and Littlefingertell Cat that releasing Jaime was the only way to see her daughters again (because she is completely stupid and could never have figured that out on her own), but now she's just reacting to Karstark's threats instead of taking the initiative and freeing Jaime of her own accord. What's even worse is that this is apparently D&D's idea of making her character more sympathetic (read : making her a doormat).

Considering how much I'm "complaining" you'd think I found the episode worthless but that's not actually true. I found everything else pretty great, especially Rose Leslie's acting and the Winterfell scenes. Alfie Allen's face is killing me (particularly at the beginning when that guard refers to Hodor as "the giant" and at the end when he looks at the children's burned corpses), and Donald Sumpter is spectacular as well. The corpses seem a bit too carbonized for Luwin to be able to tell it's no Bran and Rickon though, which would mean he would only realize they were still alive in his final moments. I'm already expecting a river of tears. For me Theon's arc is the best on the show so far.

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Holy shit people, Dagmer is not Ramsay Bolton.

That is possibly the stupidest theory I have ever read in my 10 years of lurking and posting on these boards.

Holy shit. No.

I wish the people complaining about the changes would just realize that it is going to happen and watch the show for what it is.

I wish the people complaining about the people complaining about the changes would just realize that they don't need to constantly try to take the people complaining to task as if they're the freaking Game of Thrones hall monitors.

A message board is for discussions. Discussions can include complaints. Get over it.

Edited by awesome possum

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First off, people really need to get over the fact that some things are different in the show than in the books. Martin can be as deliberate and slow in the books as he wants to be. He can have 4 chapters that reside completely within a characters head, he can have things drag on as long as he wants, etc. They can't do that on screen. It just wouldn't make for good television. Purist would say "Yep, that was spot on!" while everyone else would say "Did anything actually happen in this episode? I fell asleep 3 times!".

As far as the episode goes...

Winterfell: The walnuts are there as a plot devise for the audience only. Dagmar's idea was to pull a bait and switch, which is actually what happens. The walnuts are there simply to fool the audience into thinking the boys are the one's killed. Bran, Rickon, Osha and Hodor will likely never return to Winterfell. You won't see the scene with master Luwen either. It's just not important to the TV show that he knows the boys lived, since he's about to die anyway. All that's left is likely Yara showing up to tell Theon he's screwed and then Ramsey sacking Winterfell (making it seem as though Theon is killed, I'm sure).

Beyond the wall: Again, Jon doesn't do much in this book, so somethings had to be created. I do hate that The battle with the others seems to have been cut out, but I guess they figure Jon's story is more important. What will likely happen now, John will likely find that Qhorin had been capture as well and he'll likely tell Jon to kill him and join the wildlings to spy on Mance. So, the end result would be the same, but you got to see john do more than walk through the snow for 10 episodes.

In the Riverlands: Ok, Jaime, at this point, is a bastard. Everyone knows this. They aren't going to show him being all noble and such right now, because once he does start to change some, they want it to be more pronounced. Him killing his cousin there and antagonizing Catelyn is the writers way of showing you that he's still an arrogant douche (personally, I still hated him even in ADWD).

Kings Landing: See, this is why sticking to the book can be a very poor choice for the series.... the moon blood scene was horrible. It was pulled from the book, yes, but come on... Sansa is taller than Cersei now and looks to be 17 or 18 at this point. Also, I didn't like the scene with Tyrion and Cersei either because I HATE Cersei and the books never painted her into a good light (as they tried to do with Jaime). She was always conniving, always backstabbing, etc. Which honestly, may have been what they were trying to do there. Pull Tyrion into a false sense of family so Cersei could stab him in the back in the coming episodes.

Harrenhall: I think Arya will ask Jaqen to kill Tywen, but he'll be leaving at the time. When she realizes she's too late, she'll ask him to help her free some captured Northmen that were just brought in. Then we'll likely get to see the weasel soup scenes.

EDIT: Fixed Grammatical errors.... it's too early, haha.

Edited by Versiroth

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