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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

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I really did enjoy the episode. Ygritte and Jon have a awesome dynamic although im not sure about the being captured (again) by wildlings part, wonder how the will weave the half-hand in. Also I'll bet Rattleshirts in that group or at least i hope.

The Jamie and Qarth changes are different but i think Dany will end up tripping balls and burning hearts in the House of the Undying and Jamie will be released by Cat to save Sansa (because she knows the Stark men will kill him or she gets word about Bran and Rickon at the beginning of next weeks episode) All in all its going the the end direction anyway.

Alas i cant imagine the feeling of the non reader audience to the closing scene. Must be a real WTF moment so i can only appreciate the cliffhanger in terms of the shock for them.

I give this episode 4 Jamie choke-outs out of 5.

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I think the Chain is gone, I said this last week. I realize that won't be popular here, but I am relieved. I found it stupid in book form and on film it would look horrible.

I think hinting at it being built, a few throw-away lines about the blacksmiths all being occupied by some secret order from the Hand could have been very easily inserted... and then in the midst of the battle when things seem to be turning against them, dramatic music showing the chains being cranked up, lifted into place, the looks of shock and then horror on the face of the Onion Knight and his captains and then Cersei or someone else turning to Tyrion to comment on 'so THAT'S what you've been working on'...

I honestly don't believe that we can have too many scenes where Tyrion shows how cleverness can be as effective in battle as it can be in political manipulations... it shows him as a dangerous man despite his stature, even on the battlefield.

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That look from Roose was him realizing that Robb is about to blow his Kinghood to pieces. He already knows Robb is honorable to the point of being very destructive (just like dad), and he see's Robb paying undue attention to this woman, and pushing aside his duties for her. He is a schemer and can put together pieces of a potential disaster and better start making plans in case it happens. Does he know he will marry her? No, but he sees him smitten and that he is putting her above his lords. Time to make preparations.

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I mean the chain itself would look horrible. It makes no sense, and while you can get away with that in print, on film it's tough. More scenes with Tyrion scheming would be welcome here!

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I am pretty disappointed with the episode, as with most of them this season.

First and foremost, the thing which bothers me extremely is that they've shown Jaime as a kinslayer, which I do not recall he is from the books (not yet at least). He is truly an amazing character, especially later when he starts changing and starts realising some important things. I am very saddened with how hated show-Jaime and show-Sansa are because they are extraordinary characters.

Furthermore, Shae helping Sansa seemed a bit as a nonsense just so people would start liking Shae. One other thing I do not recall from the books, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong, is Cersei showing her weakness and confessing to Tyrion. That seemed very unCerseilike.

That being said, looks that Jaime was giving to Catelyn and Karstark while they were arguing & looks that Shae, Sansa and the other handmaiden exchanged made me laugh :D

Oh and I didn't think Ygritte could irritate me more than she does in the books, but alas, I was wrong <_<

As much as D&D did a wonderful job with the last season, I think they did a poor job with this one. As if straying too much from the path was not bad enough, there are numerous other downs.

Only high expectations I have left are those for episode 9 which was written by GRRM himself and he is the only one I still trust not to disappoint me. As for D&D goes, I do not expect from them anything anymore and maybe that is a good thing because now they might even pleasantly surprise me in further seasons.

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I am not sure the chain has been omitted. A chain boom was a pretty common method of closing a port to enemy ships, might be "show" King´s Landing already has one. No need to give Tyrion some forced line or scene in which it is mentioned.

I guess I am a book purist, but I do not feel that the fact that Tyrion had it built is sooo essential to the story. It just showcased his cleverness another time. He did not invent it.

BTW do we already have a name for the people who complain about the book purists and never tire of explaining that "the show is just BASED on the books, you can never expect a 100% correct adaptation!!!"

Shoud they be called the "show deviants" accordingly? :laugh:

Edited by BlackTalon

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Mixed feelings: I fucking loved the episode, but looking at the books it makes me sad. Looks like I'm a semi-book purist.

EDIT: The final scene was sublime. 'What have you done?! Noooooo!'

Edited by Crown

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I'm still really hopeful about all the changes, based off of what we didn't get this episode...for instance:

Doreah is still not found, we know she and Drogon get along, there were only two tails in the final scene last episode, we now know Doreah had a very good reason to not show herself while Dany was still with Xaro. I think Doreah and Drogon show up in Ep. 8 and Dany goes to the House of the Undying with Drogon.

Ghost is still missing in action. It's quite possible that Ghost will attack the Wildings and Jon will be able to get free. Having Ghost show up in EP. 8 gives Jon a chance to reunite with Qhorin before being "taken" again by the Wildings.

Robb hasn't returned from the Crag, it's possible he won't return in ep. 8 either. It's possible that there's a trap at the Crag and he'll get wounded and things will progress in a similar fashion as in the books, except perhaps Jeyne "saves" him because she's seen him not as an enemy but as a good man. I'd like that change more than just Robb has a weak moment, if their union serves a greater purpose than just young love.

We haven't seen Ramsay, and likely really won't see Ramsay, but the burned kids all but assures that Theon is going to get his at the end of this season. It seemed like they had changed so much by not including the Reeds or Ramsay, but they've trimmed the fat and given us a similar story that is more believable. Theon needed an Ironborn devil on his shoulder, someone to remind him of how he's supposed to be and give him dastardly advice. Dagmar does this perfectly, while allowing D&D to not fully introduce Ramsay until Season 3, after they've trimmed a fair amount of minor characters. People, please think before you continue with the Dagmar = Ramsay delusions, you're starting to sound like Obama birthers. Dagmar is Iron Born, he's been living with the Iron Born for years and years, fighting with them, that's why he has their respect and is able to help Theon with them. Just think for a moment, why would Roose have his bastard on the other side of the country, when he's supposed to be at the Dreadfort, as a kid, growing up and now as an adult, holding the fort while Roose is away? Dagmar = Roose makes absolutely no sense...I'd believe Quiathe is really Lyanna Stark before I believed Dagmar = Ramsay. We'll get Ramsay in Season 3, he'll be just as if not more fucked up than he was in the books (because we'll likely get him torturing and flaying Theon all season long).

On Cat/Jaime, it's possible this change works better than Cat releasing Jaime because she's heard about Bran and Rickon, instead of Cat betraying Robb, she's protecting his interests. It makes the contrast between what she does and what Karstark is likely to do (kill a bunch of Lannister prisoners) much more...well...Starker. Robb can't be a "just" king if he doesn't kill his mother for freeing a prisoner because of her kids, but then puts a man to death because of what he does after his kids have been killed. Catelyn sending Jaime off before she finds out about Winterfell's latest news actually works better. Show Cat has been much shrewder than Book Cat. If Karstark kills Jaime, the Stark girls definitely die. Cat is seen to be protecting Robb's interests and her own, when she could have easily just sought revenge. Karstark is shown to have committed treason by directly going against Robb's orders and endangering Robb's family.

Still much to be seen, I think most of these changes will work well. My biggest gripe was that Tyrion mentioned that Stannis is "5 days away" so we know that the time frame in Ep. 7 - 9 is only 5 days. That's a very short amount of time for a lot to develop...but we'll see how it goes down in the coming weeks.

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I mean the chain itself would look horrible. It makes no sense, and while you can get away with that in print, on film it's tough. More scenes with Tyrion scheming would be welcome here!

I Don't understand this at all, just a Massive chain being lifted out of the ocean, a great WTF moment for the audience And it turns the tide of the battle.

Stated perfectly below.

I think hinting at it being built, a few throw-away lines about the blacksmiths all being occupied by some secret order from the Hand could have been very easily inserted... and then in the midst of the battle when things seem to be turning against them, dramatic music showing the chains being cranked up, lifted into place, the looks of shock and then horror on the face of the Onion Knight and his captains and then Cersei or someone else turning to Tyrion to comment on 'so THAT'S what you've been working on'...

I honestly don't believe that we can have too many scenes where Tyrion shows how cleverness can be as effective in battle as it can be in political manipulations... it shows him as a dangerous man despite his stature, even on the battlefield.

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I am not sure the chain has been omitted. A chain boom was a pretty common method of closing a port to enemy ships, might be "show" King´s Landing already has one. No need to give Tyrion some forced line or scene in which it is mentioned.

I guess I am a book purist, but I do not feel that the fact that Tyrion had it built is sooo essential to the story. It just showcased his cleverness another time. He did not invent it.

BTW do we already have a name for the people who complain about the book purists and never tire of explaining that "the show is just BASED on the books, you can never expect a 100% correct adaptation!!!"

Shoud they be called the "show deviants" accordingly? :laugh:

Thats the kew word, its a base and they are telling their version of it as i thats their starting point per se, and also adapting to another medium. Not trying to stir up an argument, but I had to say something.

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lol the show only viewers could care less that Jaime is a "kinslayer". its never really been discussed hardcore in the show.

people need to calm down and enjoy the show for what it is

the ONLY PEOPLE who complain about the show are bookreaders. everyone i know who only watches the show CANNOT wait for the next week after each and every GoT episode. they have one complaint, and that is that the seasons are too short.

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I really hope that when they get to the Battle of Blackwater they follow Davos for the moments when Tyron's trap (whatever it ends up being... Cersei's barge or some old hulks just full of wildfire?) is sprung. That part of the book was very effective, as he saw how things were going to play out just a moment before disaster struck.

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Oh and I almost forgot, those two bodies that were supposed to look like Bran and Rickon were bizzare. They could have at least make them not look like some plain dummies.

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My biggest gripe was that Tyrion mentioned that Stannis is "5 days away" so we know that the time frame in Ep. 7 - 9 is only 5 days. That's a very short amount of time for a lot to develop...but we'll see how it goes down in the coming weeks.

This^ I completely agree now that there will definately not be any mention of the chain, or the chain itself for that matter. I cannot believe that this piece is going to be omitted. Last night, when Tyrion said "5 days away" I almost shit myself. They have a lot to get ready in King's Landing in 5 days.

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edit: so was the jailer one of Karstark's sons?

edit2: I guess he was, that's sort of stupid as a change but eh.

Really? Would you prefer that we are introduced to a Karstark who already has a grudge against Jaime? Or that they had introduced Karstark last season just to have his son killed, and then had to awkwardly remind us of it now? Changes like this are the kind that are absolutely necessary for an adaptation. It was the only way to make Karstark's story work.

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On Cat/Jaime, it's possible this change works better than Cat releasing Jaime because she's heard about Bran and Rickon, instead of Cat betraying Robb, she's protecting his interests. It makes the contrast between what she does and what Karstark is likely to do (kill a bunch of Lannister prisoners) much more...well...Starker. Robb can't be a "just" king if he doesn't kill his mother for freeing a prisoner because of her kids, but then puts a man to death because of what he does after his kids have been killed. Catelyn sending Jaime off before she finds out about Winterfell's latest news actually works better. Show Cat has been much shrewder than Book Cat. If Karstark kills Jaime, the Stark girls definitely die. Cat is seen to be protecting Robb's interests and her own, when she could have easily just sought revenge. Karstark is shown to have committed treason by directly going against Robb's orders and endangering Robb's family.

Like when she advised Robb not to send Theon back to the Iron Islands, or asked him to petition for peace with the Lannisters, or told him to ally himself with Renly or Stannis. Oh wait, Show Cat did none of those things. Show Cat is completely incapable to taking any initiative, she exists only to react to all the interesting stuff other characters do, to give us a POV into "important king stuff" and to remind the audience that good mothers stay at home.

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Yes, having Catelyn freeing Jaime because Karstark is going to kill him makes sense. It just strips her of any agency she ever had, turning an active decision she made on her own into a passive reaction to someone else's plan. I could have accepted it if it had been a one time thing, but the trend since season 2 has been to take every idea Cat ever had in the books and to give it to someone else (usually a male character). As such you have Robb advising her to go to Renly, Tyrion and LF convincing her to release Jaime and Brienne commandeering their escape from Renly's tent and Renly's camp. All of those things should have come from Cat. Instead she spends half her scenes crying "I should be in Winterfell with my babies !!".

I agree with you about the Robb sending her to Renly part, but disagree about the Jamie release.

With regard to the Jamie release, I think tv-Cat is being smarter than book-Cat.

I think releasing Jamie in response to a specific offer to trade him for the girls is smarter and more rational than sending him to Kings Landing on the assumption/ hope that the Lannisters will release her daughters.

Book-Cat's decision was an emotional decision after the boys' apparent death, and I thought it was stupid. Here, TV-Cat is rationally assessing the situation in Robb's camp and coming to the probably correct conclusion that Jamie won't last the night and she'll lose her bargaining chip. Just because it's in response to Karstark's raging doesn't take her agency away.

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Cersei is still kind of holding it together until Joff dies then she goes nuts, like any mother would… she realizes Joff is crazy, Tyrion mentioned the Targaryn line being 50/50 sane/insane since they were a product of brother and sister…

Jamie didn't let family get in his way, like Ned did

I hope they don't show any more Bran and Rickon until season 3, much better catalyst for Rob to hook up with Talisa/Jeyne and for Catelyn to chop off Jamie's hand. I don't know what redemption many of you are talking about for Jamie, he's totally depressed and can't hold a sword through the next few books, until his dyslexic ambidexterity kicks in and he starts messing stuff up left handed in the Winds of Winter book…

I don't mind the changes with Qarth, I thought the HoUD killing all the merchants was pretty wild and gruesome. Besides they were just using Dany to take over the city, Dany is once again a pawn in someone else's game.

do the Wildlings force Qhorin and Jon to a duel ?

I do wish it was 12 episodes this season

The chain could be interesting but I don't get the physics of a giant chain trapping 200 ships in a bay, I can suspend disbelief for dragons and zombies but giants chains border or farce, the Hell Fyre or whatever it's called is much more plausible

I am still holding out for Sam finding the dragonglass soon

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