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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

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1) Catelyn should NOT release Jamie before she finds out about Bran and Rickon. The action of betraying Robb (which is what it is) only makes sense under the prism of her finding out about Bran and Rickon's death.

In the context of what they're showing, it makes total sense for Catelyn to free Jaime. If she doesn't release Jaime, he's going to be lynched by Karstark and those sympathetic to him before the sun rises. To have any chance of getting her daughters back, freeing Jaime is the only thing to do. In this context, I think it becomes less of a betrayal of Robb - Robb isn't there, and doesn't see the situation. Robb wouldn't want Jaime lynched any more than Catelyn does. Sending him off to King's Landing with Brienne is making the best of a bad situation.

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Like when she advised Robb not to send Theon back to the Iron Islands, or asked him to petition for peace with the Lannisters, or told him to ally himself with Renly or Stannis. Oh wait, Show Cat did none of those things. Show Cat is completely incapable to taking any initiative, she exists only to react to all the interesting stuff other characters do, to give us a POV into "important king stuff" and to remind the audience that good mothers stay at home.

? Didn't she do at least two of these things?

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I enjoyed it quite a bit, if you didn't know what was coming I could see a few people getting quite bored of it by now though, is there a website where you can check the screen time of people so far?

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I Don't understand this at all, just a Massive chain being lifted out of the ocean, a great WTF moment for the audience And it turns the tide of the battle.

Didn't read the book?

people need to calm down and enjoy the show for what it is

the ONLY PEOPLE who complain about the show are bookreaders. everyone i know who only watches the show CANNOT wait for the next week after each and every GoT episode. they have one complaint, and that is that the seasons are too short.

I agree about the need to calm down. The show cannot possibly cover all the things that were in the book. Changes must be made to eliminate events and characters. Yes, that would only upset those who read the book, because those didn't, don't know how goo it might have been.

Oh and I almost forgot, those two bodies that were supposed to look like Bran and Rickon were bizzare. They could have at least make them not look like some plain dummies.

Exactly what are bodies covered in tar with parts of limbs missing, supposed to look like?

Edited by Robin Hill

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Exactly what are bodies covered in tar with parts of limbs missing, supposed to look like?

Not like the dummies they used in the show :D I don't know, they just looked silly to me, swinging in the wind and all.

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lol the show only viewers could care less that Jaime is a "kinslayer". its never really been discussed hardcore in the show.

Huh? Surely the show-only viewers don’t care at all about Jaime being a kinslayer. Why do you believe they do care?

Gosh, what really YouTube-ish comments these days!

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lol the show only viewers could care less that Jaime is a "kinslayer". its never really been discussed hardcore in the show.

Huh? Surely the show-only viewers don’t care at all about Jaime being a kinslayer. Why do you believe they do care?

Gosh, what really YouTube-ish comments these days!

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I agree with you about the Robb sending her to Renly part, but disagree about the Jamie release.

With regard to the Jamie release, I think tv-Cat is being smarter than book-Cat.

The two situations are quite different from one another, so I'm not sure it's possible to compare how Catelyn is being smarter in one rather than the other. Sure, in the show it makes sense that she'd free him now rather than after the news of her sons' deaths reach her, but that's not what happens in the books so there's a false equivalency there. In both cases she tries to make the best out of a bad situation, but in the book version she is taking the initiative while in the show version she is just responding to Karstark's impending threat.

I think releasing Jamie in response to a specific offer to trade him for the girls is smarter and more rational than sending him to Kings Landing on the assumption/ hope that the Lannisters will release her daughters.

Book-Cat's decision was an emotional decision after the boys' apparent death, and I thought it was stupid. Here, TV-Cat is rationally assessing the situation in Robb's camp and coming to the probably correct conclusion that Jamie won't last the night and she'll lose her bargaining chip. Just because it's in response to Karstark's raging doesn't take her agency away.

Robb later admitted himself that he should have traded the girls for Jaime when he still had the chance. Even a Sansa-Jaime exchange would have been a great deal for the Starks. Sansa is extremely relevant, politically speaking, as the Lannisters and Tyrells quickly realize (and quickly take advantage of), while Jaime is completely useless. He can't be killed because the Lannisters have hostages of their own, but he can't be exchanged either because he's too important, and having him as a hostage does not in the least prevent Tywin from carrying out his plots. Sansa gives the Lannisters or Tyrells or whomever a claim to Winterfell, aka 1/7th of the kingdom. Exchanging her would have been the smart thing to do. Since Catelyn had no way of doing that earlier, she took it in her own hands in the only way she could. That doesn't make her actions stupid to me.

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Also I thought Jamie's capture was too soon after he escaped, the capture scene was about 5 minutes after he escaped I would have preferred him to be caught trying to escape on the night and join the two scenes

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? Didn't she do at least two of these things?

She tells Robb that Balon is not trustworthy, but she makes no mention of Theon being the envoy. In the books she agrees to having Robb send his offer to the Iron Islands, but she specifically tells him that anyone would be better than Theon as messenger. Robb is the one who has the idea to send someone to Renly's camp, while Catelyn was the first one to think of it (even before the Blackfish) and during the King in the North scene when she should have been pleading for peace she stays silent, not long after she tells Robb that "we will kill them all".

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This^ I completely agree now that there will definately not be any mention of the chain, or the chain itself for that matter. I cannot believe that this piece is going to be omitted. Last night, when Tyrion said "5 days away" I almost shit myself. They have a lot to get ready in King's Landing in 5 days.

This was an odd addition for the writers to make. As far as I can recall this is the first mention of time involved with travel, so even though we can joke about Littlefinger teleporting from Renly's camp to Harrenhal, we don't know for sure how much time has supposedly passed. But barring them saying Stannis has some how been delayed, we know that the events from that point in the episode to the attack in episode 9 = 5 days, which not only rules out the chain being started and completed, but also gives us a time measuring stick for every event in every other story line. Which means that Tywin has to march his army from Harrenhal to King's Landing within 5 days if he is going to participate in day 1 of the battle of blackwater. It will also give us a time frame on any other travel, raven delivery speeds, and events for next episode and up until the attack in episode 9.

I don't really understand how anyone can say the chain was an unrealistic idea, chains have been attempted in real life for similar effect, such as the Hudson River Chain, the harbor of Constantinople,

Edited by Tadco26

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I respect people's complaints and criticisms. I just think some people are getting ahead of themselves. In the books, GRRM sows plot points well before the payoff. In the tv show, it's been clear that they'd shortening the time between sowing of plot point and payoff.

For example,

It wouldn't work for Sansa to be discussing possible escape with Dontos already. She doesn't escape until the Purple Wedding, which won't happen until the end of Season 3 at the earliest. It would feel like really pointless television for her to spend over a season meeting Dontos in the Godswood and discussing possible escape.

Yet, I've seen a lot of complaining that Sansa's not meeting Dontos in the Godswood, but barely any complaints of something we know has been cut- Dontos' efforts to assist Sansa when Joffrey has her beaten.

It's not like the producers don't know where the story is going. They know what has to happen. They've read the later books and have some information about what's going to happen after book 5.

So basically, it's way too soon to be complaining that Tyrion's chain has been cut eliminated (no pun intended). There's plenty of time for the next episode to include Tyrion making last minute preparations for the defense of KL, or even during the battle to instruct someone to raise the chain, etc. If we get to the end of the Battle of Blackwater with no chain, I'm totally on board with complaining that the chain has been eliminated. But for all we know, they'll (actually, GRRM, since he's writing that episode) have come up with some other ingenious method of defense.

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Not like the dummies they used in the show :D I don't know, they just looked silly to me, swinging in the wind and all.

They were hoisted from (I assume) lying on the ground, so some swinging motion would make sense. I'll watch it again.

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I respect people's complaints and criticisms. I just think some people are getting ahead of themselves. In the books, GRRM sows plot points well before the payoff. In the tv show, it's been clear that they'd shortening the time between sowing of plot point and payoff.

For example,

It wouldn't work for Sansa to be discussing possible escape with Dontos already. She doesn't escape until the Purple Wedding, which won't happen until the end of Season 3 at the earliest. It would feel like really pointless television for her to spend over a season meeting Dontos in the Godswood and discussing possible escape.

Yet, I've seen a lot of complaining that Sansa's not meeting Dontos in the Godswood, but barely any complaints of something we know has been cut- Dontos' efforts to assist Sansa when Joffrey has her beaten.

It's not like the producers don't know where the story is going. They know what has to happen. They've read the later books and have some information about what's going to happen after book 5.

So basically, it's way too soon to be complaining that Tyrion's chain has been cut eliminated (no pun intended). There's plenty of time for the next episode to include Tyrion making last minute preparations for the defense of KL, or even during the battle to instruct someone to raise the chain, etc. If we get to the end of the Battle of Blackwater with no chain, I'm totally on board with complaining that the chain has been eliminated. But for all we know, they'll (actually, GRRM, since he's writing that episode) have come up with some other ingenious method of defense.

Maybe the chain is already in place and someone (maybe Varys we haven't seen a lot of him and Tryion) lets Tyrion know about it

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I have only read the first book, so I know I should not really post here (taking a risk here) but I have a few questions about the series, and I would appreciate if someone took the time to enlighten me :)

1: Is Tywin really as kind to Arya in the book? Do they even talk this much?

2: Do season 2 cover more than one book? I don´t know why I get that impression...

3: How long time would you guess have passed since the end of season 1? I have no idea how long time they spend in the camp between the battles, but it must be several weeks at least.

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It is a difficult thing to divorce ones self from knowledge of material as rich as ASOIAF when dealing with a television adaptation. I have tried to approach each and every episode looking at it in two ways. 1. How does the show do as a whole, independent entity? 2. How does my knowledge of the source effect how I think about the show? I like to think that I'm smart enough, versed enough in pop culture and the general sense of the way television adaptations work, that I can do both.

The reader in me rails at a lot of the general changes in that I think that things may have worked as well to keep certain threads from the story intact that may not have kept viewers who haven't read the books away.

However, as a whole, it's a solid solid show. Grand. Big. Heavy. But it's still very well done. I can see that. I can, and do, enjoy it immensely. Especially since it can be kind of fun to try to out guess where the hell the show creators want to go with the material they've taken and changed so heavily.

So, I try to couch my comments on the idea that the show is it's own entity and how is it working? Though I freely acknowledge that the books and knowledge from there intrudes on some of it.

HA! I called Jon Snow getting "blue balls" last week and Ygritte confirms. :P It was a good scene between the two because while her teasing is fun, it re-established Jon's vows and shows the diiferences bewteen the Watch and the Free People.

The deviation from the end of ACOK here is stark (no pun intended). While the actor playing Ygritte is wonderful (how folks have decided she's "hot" when she's that bundled up...), the scenes themselves aren't working as well as they could for me. They're getting to the same point that the books did, but to take away Jon's interactions with Qhorin and the others as they race through the Frost Fangs, seems to lessen the impact of contrast. Jon goes on the ranging with one set of ideas about the Wildings in his mind. From Qhorin, he not only learns there is more to it than that, but it is also a strong reaffirmation of what it is to truly be a Brother of the Night's Watch. This makes the sacrafice of the others as they try to get back to the Wall, the sitting about the fire saying the oath again, much more powerful and gives some proper context to Jon's orders from Qhorin and his subsequent actions in ASOS.

This is an instance where I don't know that the change works as well.

Other Changes: The timing (and therefore reason) of Cat freeing Jaime. In the books, she learns that two of her sons (Bran and Rickon) are "Dead" and in a fit of motherly rage(?), she frees Jaime in order to broker a deal with the imp to free her daughters.

In the show, she does it before learning of Bran and Rickon, and does so because she knows Jaime will be killed (Which would spell the deaths her daughters, without a doubt). So, I don't have a problem with it. Both choices were fueled by motherly tendencies, and so the basis is intact. It just makes her a little worse, cause she doesn't have the excuse of grief.

From a book standpoint, moving the scene with Jaime and Cat here was a mis-step. Not knowing about Bran and Rickon means that Cat is freeing the Kingslayer (if that's what she's doing) to save his life. I acknowledge that it makes sense that she needs him alive to ensure the life of her daughters, but thinking her sons are gone really amps the drama of the scene.

From a pure show stand point, the escape attempt tracks. Though it seemed a little high handed to have Jaime kill the relative. It is as if they needed to remind the audience that he's still technically a bad guy. I think it may have worked better if the attempt had been part of a Tyrion plot, as in the books, but this still works. Having a Karstark killed still works. The alteration of having Catelyn confront Rickard Karstark sort of works.

Theon's scenes - He's really a great actor, though I imagine everyone who haven't read the books are really going to be calling for his blood after this episode. One thing I will say is that it could have been slightly more obvious who the hanging bodies were supposed to be — Both my father and my friend, who haven't read the books, asked me who the hanging, charred bodies were, because he never really says their names. I had to deadpan and say Bran and Rickon without giving up any spoilers. That was REALLY difficult, I'm not the best at poker.

So much of Theon's ACOK scenes have been used in the Winterfell arc. I can see the GRRM dialogue as the characters are saying the lines. Sure, some aspects have been changed, but it's still the strong wording and context that is there...UNTIL we get to the chase in the woods. I know we're still getting Ramsay Snow/Bolton based on the earlier episode, but changing the bit with the orphans to being essentially Theon's idea? It just doesn't track with the character that has been portrayed. Theon on the show, as in the books, is so desparate to be accepted for who he believes he is, he's always been easily manipulated by stronger personalities (which is why his POVs are sometimes hard to read and why his road to redemptions/realization in ADWD is as strong as it is). Here, if using the unseen orphans was Dagmar's idea, it didn't come through clearly, and even if it had, this Dagmar is underutilized to make him seem inconsequential.

Yes, changing it to be Theon's idea is a drastic departure from the books, but it's also a drastic departure from the show as well, as Theon on the show has never actually shown any ability for thinking on his feet in such a manner, nor has he shown any kind of evil streak. Petty and cruel in a kicking puppies kind of way, but never evil.

Yes, there was some kind of something or other between Roose and Jeyne when he left. I can't quite say what it was...a recognition of some kind? Not sure.

Does it matter? There's been too little shown on the show to establish a proper chain of events that will lead to Roose's defection/betrayal. That he's still with Robb, rather than at Harrenhall really does lessen some of the impact. Just my opinion on that one though.

I remain neutral on the Dany stuff until I see how they go about it. I still predict a very tepid House of the Undying, as any images she gets will not be of the prophetic Red Wedding type, or flashbacks to Rhaegar as that would make no sense to anyone as they've barely talked about him or the significance of the Song of Ice and Fire. As a whole with regard to the show, it's working (for the most part), though other than Jorah and that one Dothraki guard we see at the top of the stair in her first scene last night, is there anyone left with her?

The Theon scenes (kinda like in book 5) are owning.

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I have only read the first book, so I know I should not really post here (taking a risk here) but I have a few questions about the series, and I would appreciate if someone took the time to enlighten me :)

1: Is Tywin really as kind to Arya in the book? Do they even talk this much?

2: Do season 2 cover more than one book? I don´t know why I get that impression...

3: How long time would you guess have passed since the end of season 1? I have no idea how long time they spend in the camp between the battles, but it must be several weeks at least.

Since you're taking a risk, as you said yourself, I'll keep it spoiler free. I'm by no means an expert, but here I go:

1. Tywin and Arya never even come into direct contact in the book, she acts as another character's cupbearer after Tywin leaves Harrenhal.

2. The bulk of the season roughly covers book 2, although there are elements from book 3 included, such as certain scenes in Robb's camp (Riverrun in the books)

3. I honestly have no definite idea, but my rough guess would be about 2 months?

Edited by A_Man

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I agree about the need to calm down. The show cannot possibly cover all the things that were in the book. Changes must be made to eliminate events and characters.

True, some changes are necessary, some are fine, and some even add good stuff to the story; some changes are frivilous, stupid and pointless. And those are the ones I rail against.

For example, I had no problem with them consolidating the scene where Arya frees Jaqen, Yoren is killed, and Arya & Gendry are taken captive and sent to Harrenhal. In the book, nothing of huge significance happens while Arya, Gendry & Co are on the run before taken by the Mountain's gang, so why not get them on to Harrenhal that much quicker?

I do, however, have a problem with Ros the non!canon whore sucking up valuable screentime, when we already have precious little of it to go around.

I have a problem with Joffrey having whores beat each other just to show us how ZOMG!EVYL he is, when we just saw him have Sansa stripped and beaten in the middle of the Hall. He's a douche. We get it.

What's infuriating about things like that, to me, is that Jaime's canon!escape attempt could have been a quick scene included in that episode, instead of Joffrey's nonsense. That way, Jaime wouldn't have been off-screen for 5 full episodes.

My $.02.

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