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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

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The two situations are quite different from one another, so I'm not sure it's possible to compare how Catelyn is being smarter in one rather than the other. Sure, in the show it makes sense that she'd free him now rather than after the news of her sons' deaths reach her, but that's not what happens in the books so there's a false equivalency there. In both cases she tries to make the best out of a bad situation, but in the book version she is taking the initiative while in the show version she is just responding to Karstark's impending threat.

Robb later admitted himself that he should have traded the girls for Jaime when he still had the chance. Even a Sansa-Jaime exchange would have been a great deal for the Starks. Sansa is extremely relevant, politically speaking, as the Lannisters and Tyrells quickly realize (and quickly take advantage of), while Jaime is completely useless. He can't be killed because the Lannisters have hostages of their own, but he can't be exchanged either because he's too important, and having him as a hostage does not in the least prevent Tywin from carrying out his plots. Sansa gives the Lannisters or Tyrells or whomever a claim to Winterfell, aka 1/7th of the kingdom. Exchanging her would have been the smart thing to do. Since Catelyn had no way of doing that earlier, she took it in her own hands in the only way she could. That doesn't make her actions stupid to me.

I think the hostage exchange issue was always complicated for the Starks. On the one hand, it seems obvious to consider trading the girls for Jamie. (For that reason, I wasn't bothered that the offer came from Tyrion via Littlefinger as opposed to Cat. I just didn't think it was a uniquely brilliant idea.) On the other hand, for wartime, Jamie, a skilled knight and battle commander, is a much more immediate asset than Sansa and Arya. Sansa's value as a hostage only raises after all of her brothers die. Until then, her claim to Winterfell is 4th in line.

I may have overstated book-Cat's decision to release Jamie as "stupid," but I still think it was an emotional decision that wasn't very well thought out. She had no guarantee that the Lannisters would release her daughters in exchange or that, given there's a civil war going on, that Jamie would reach Kings landing or the girls would reach Riverrun/ Winterfell.

I don't think Cat's taking any more or less initiative in the show than in the book, on this particular point. In the book she was responding to the apparent death of her sons.

Like I said before, I agree with you on your argument that other of Cat's politically astute advice and decisions have come from other characters. I just think that in this episode, she's seemed a lot shrewder.

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Karstark's execution won't happen on the show, mark my words. He's served his purpose already expediting Jaime's release.

I agree with this. There's no sense in having him executed now, especially when we were never introduced to the other Lannisters that Karstark's men murders. I doubt Richard Karstark will show up again on the show, he'll be Greatjon'd off.

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Karstark's execution won't happen on the show, mark my words. He's served his purpose already expediting Jaime's release.

I agree with this. There's no sense in having him executed now, especially when we were never introduced to the other Lannisters that Karstark's men murders. I doubt Richard Karstark will show up again on the show, he'll be Greatjon'd off.

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Huh? Surely the show-only viewers don’t care at all about Jaime being a kinslayer. Why do you believe they do care?

Gosh, what really YouTube-ish comments these days!

i said they dont care....but i get the sense your being sarcastic, although i havent been on this forum long enough to find the "style" of how people post things

people need to get over it about jaime killing alton. its not a complete game changer about his sudden "revival" into a "better" person later.

the way some of you flip out over changes from the book....cant be good for your stress levels, relax and enjoy the sow

The biggest problem ive had so far with the adaptation of the show

unnecessary sex, yes, GRRM has a lot of sex in the books, but in the brothel it all seems a huge waste of screen time. i dont care about ros, i know Joff is evil, we get the point. stop wasting time with it

last comment: we need to let the season finish before judging it completely.

for example, jon snow right now is in an awkward position. as a reader of the books, i dont know whats going to happen, but im willing to give the writers a chance to explain what happens to him in the next 3 episodes, rather than complain about how different this is and what happens with the halfhand.......let it play out and THEN judge, same with Dany and her lost dragons

Edited by UncertainPerson

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I didn't see this mentioned but there was a lot to read through so here's my question: does anybody think that the guy lying face down with Quaithe was Euron? She says he's headed to Valyria. I'm not sure about my timeline, but given what's about to go down at the HOTU, Euron will be capturing some of those warlocks soon.

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I mean the chain itself would look horrible. It makes no sense, and while you can get away with that in print, on film it's tough. More scenes with Tyrion scheming would be welcome here!

What is it about the chain that doesn't make any sense? Chains have been used to block ships from rivers for pretty much all of history. It's not something GRRM just made up.

Here's one example from the Revolutionary war: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_River_Chain and another from the American Civil war http://www.saveastory.com/travel/20080502_chain_across_the_mississippi_river.htm

There's countless others if you look for them.

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1: Is Tywin really as kind to Arya in the book? Do they even talk this much?

2: Do season 2 cover more than one book? I don´t know why I get that impression..

3: How long time would you guess have passed since the end of season 1? I have no idea how long time they spend in the camp between the battles, but it must be several weeks at least.

A1: Tywin and Arya never talk in the books and Tywin isnt really nice to anyone, that has been the point of contention for a lot of reader/viewers. Although in my opinion, I think Tywin is smart and knows what he is doing, he clearly knows shes a noble and just because he's a dick, doesn't mean he doesn't like conversation, especially when it always pertains to how much of a badass he is(all he ever does to arya is brag and tell her what to do.)

A2: season 2 is basically the second book, but they have taken some many more liberties this season as opposed to 1, that its really hard to say. the writers have said from the beginning, since the books were written from a POV perspective, its inevitable for some stuff from all books to run together. for example, at the end of season one, they were showing some stuff that was in book 2 with arya. there are tons of other examples. basically they are just trying to tell the story the best they can.

A3: it was my impression that no time really had "passed." like i said, since its written in the POV style, it really depends on the chapter youre reading, but they basically pick up where the other left off.

as far as cat releasing jaime without the news of the boys deaths. I re-watched the episode and they wrote it in a way that made sense. When cat walks up jaime says something along the lines of "you came to see me on my last night alive" and the guards specifically tell cat that he wont last the night, brienne also notes it. I think it makes sense for her to release him on the pretense that he is worthless dead, so she might as well try to get something. i also think that she might have cut off his hand, since its entirely possible that they cut out the brave companions completely, although i think it would be an injustice to brienne and jaime to not show them fight, it really said a lot about both characters IMO. this is my first post, my grammar is terrible, and im sorry.

Edited by timstanton

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My only problem with this episode is that it's very obvious that Bran and Rickon are alive still.

When you read ACOK for the first time I think GRRM did a good job putting doubt in your head and making you think that maybe they are really dead. I watched that episode with 2 of my friends who never read the books, and they both thought it was very obvious right away that Bran and Rickon were alive still.

Edited by Maester Hodor

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"That way, Jaime wouldn't have been off-screen for

5 full episodes

."

He's been in a prison the whole time... what kind of scenes would you have liked?

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I haven't read this entire thread, so I apoligize if this has been discussed already. What do you guys think Tywin is up to with Arya? It's clear that he knows she's not a common girl ("If you're going to pose as lowborn..."). Who does he think she is? How many highborn noble Northern girls could there be running around who have need to pose as common boys? Does he know she had been bound for the Night's Watch before? Originally I thought he just took a liking to her because she was smart; now I think he knows he has something of value, but I can't figure out why he'd let her have the run of the castle if he thought she could be used. Even if she were only a minor lord's daughter, I doubt Tywin would let the opportunity to collect a ransom escape. Could Tywin recognize her as a Stark? She *is* supposed to be the spitting image of Lyanna.

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the fact that they have possibly omitted the chain annoys me because i think it really speaks to tyrion winning the battle of blackwater. I am hoping that it is going to be something that comes up this week and it will have been something tyrion had been working on for a while in secret. :dunno:

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I haven't read this entire thread, so I apoligize if this has been discussed already. What do you guys think Tywin is up to with Arya? It's clear that he knows she's not a common girl ("If you're going to pose as lowborn..."). Who does he think she is? How many highborn noble Northern girls could there be running around who have need to pose as common boys? Does he know she had been bound for the Night's Watch before? Originally I thought he just took a liking to her because she was smart; now I think he knows he has something of value, but I can't figure out why he'd let her have the run of the castle if he thought she could be used. Even if she were only a minor lord's daughter, I doubt Tywin would let the opportunity to collect a ransom escape. Could Tywin recognize her as a Stark? She *is* supposed to be the spitting image of Lyanna.

i think its possible that he knows she is arya and knows her value. maybe littlefinger (who i think knew) told him. i think its possible that arya will find out that tywin knows who she is and it might lead to her eventual departure from harrenhall? i am intrigued by this storyline none the less.

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I like the changes to the Dany story line, which was boring in the books. I think that stripping her of her extended family is moving her from words to action.

I find the changes to the Jon story line a little troubling as it just seems to be leading up to his sympathy for the oppressed free folk when he remains a brother at heart throughout, but found the Ygritte scenes charming.

I am operating on the theory that Talisa is a Lannister spy: her talk with Rob was at the strategy table. On the other hand, it seems like he might be winning her over.

Love watching all of the scenes with Arya and Tywin, but feel they are off track.

I did like Cersei's speech to Sansa, which seems to indicate to me that Cersei knows that Joffrey is a losing cause.

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One thing I didn't like was Shae pulling a knife on the handmaiden; that's just dumb.

Indeed, what was the point of that? Even with the Hound, how would that ever have been effective? Have to assume it will expose her to Cersei and perhaps Cersei beats her rather than Alayaya?

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I liked this one better than last week's, but I really wish I could like it more. So loved the first season, but this one is just too much for 10 episodes. Way to much. The writers are leaving out threads in the books that really suck the flavor out of the story. First, the crypts were already mentioned- maybe not major in itself but it combined an important set of details. One of the coolest things IMO of the whole escape sequence was having the two dire wolves go off and leave a bunch of confusing paths for Theon and friends to run around chasing. So now it's like Theon actually just gives up chasing them down even though they are on horses? OK- pretty lame, though it makes him killing the Miller's kids looks even more cruel and pointless I admit.

And what is up with Jon? Seriously, where the F is Ghost!? He's with him the entire time he's beyond the wall, save for hunting for a few hours! The only time he's separated a bit is because he has to climb up that huge cliff, which didn't happen in the show anyway. He's definitely with him by the time he meet's Rattleshirt. Maybe Ghost will be another surprise appearance in the nick of time but it doesn't show much of the connection they have, whcih by then in novel is only getting deeper.

Actually the whole Ygritte thing is kind of annoying in general. She doesn't seem that tough, speaks too well, and Jon looks like an idiot letting her escape twice. And again, the rest of the rangers surely would have tracked them down and met up way before a whole day had gone by.

I still don't really get the stolen dragons thing either, though it seems likely the story line will be resolved pretty much the same way it did in the book I guess.

I don't mind the Tywin/Arya thing that much, though she seems to be getting less clever minute by minute. Now she's bragging the to leader of all she hates about her history knowledge, and yet expects to be taken for a mason's daughter? OK.... I forget who got that speech about My Lord/M'lord. was it actually her, or someone else? And why do we never get to see her sword (Needle work) training in secret as it mentions maybe 100 times in the books? It's key to her thirst for vengeance and hatred for what's happened to her and her family. I still like seeing her thread but it's not as interesting.

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What bothers me is that people are shocked that an adaptation of a book made changes from the source material. I don't care about people talking about it, but the people who are acting apalled or shocked over it is a bit much.

You're absolutely right. If Dany had hatched winged badgers instead of dragons, well, that's just part of the adaptation. Deal with it. :rolleyes:

I don't know when you came to this series, but some of us have been with this story and characters for most of our adult lives. I first read Game and Clash 13 years ago. I eagerly anticipated Storm coming out and waited every agonizing year for Feast and then Dance. I've known the story and characters since I was 19 years old, have read the books countless times - I literally have lost track of how many times. At least once a year, and that's even after Feast and my disappointment in GRRM's dicking around.

So seeing something as jarring (and in my opinion - stupid) as Jon taking Ygritte captive and then himself getting captured by the Wildlings is something I'm fucking entitled to be shocked and appalled about. I like some changes, I love a few others, and haven't been bothered by any others. Except this one. It's dumb. And I have every right to come here and express that. So does anyone else no matter what gripe or opinion they have.

In closing, piss off with the "durr adaptation durr you can't complain here because you not fan if you complain durrrrrr"

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Jon and Ygritte wandering all over the place for the sake of some nice scenery and endless childish sex talk. Meaningless filler. And Ghost has conveniently disappeared.

I

I never really know how to feel after the episodes with all the unneccessary additions and scenes and then they go and have Jon and Ygritte traipsing around with NO GHOST??? My poor husband watches with me and I go off on a tangent. About Ghost!!!!

It just seems so trivial with all the other wackyness that is going on.

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"That way, Jaime wouldn't have been off-screen for

5 full episodes

."

He's been in a prison the whole time... what kind of scenes would you have liked?

Read the rest of my post re: bumping up the escape attempt a few episodes.

Rather than putting all 3 of Jaime's scenes into this episode, and rather than Joffrey & Da Hors, Jaime's escape attempt could've come in an earlier ep. For example.

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I have some problems with the adaption especially concerning Robb as he was my fav in the book but on the whole i love the show. Will talk more about it when have time maybe

just want to add I think i have a crush on Ygritte.....she is sexy.

And i get a big smile on my face whenever Hodor says "Hodor". Love the way he says it

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does anyone know if the brotherhood with out banners are going to get any screen time? dondarion was in season 1 and they have mentioned them three times now. why would they do that if they are going to omit them? anyone have any insider knowledge?

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