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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

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True, some changes are necessary, some are fine, and some even add good stuff to the story; some changes are frivilous, stupid and pointless. And those are the ones I rail against.

For example, I had no problem with them consolidating the scene where Arya frees Jaqen, Yoren is killed, and Arya & Gendry are taken captive and sent to Harrenhal. In the book, nothing of huge significance happens while Arya, Gendry & Co are on the run before taken by the Mountain's gang, so why not get them on to Harrenhal that much quicker?

I do, however, have a problem with Ros the non!canon whore sucking up valuable screentime, when we already have precious little of it to go around.

I have a problem with Joffrey having whores beat each other just to show us how ZOMG!EVYL he is, when we just saw him have Sansa stripped and beaten in the middle of the Hall. He's a douche. We get it.

What's infuriating about things like that, to me, is that Jaime's canon!escape attempt could have been a quick scene included in that episode, instead of Joffrey's nonsense. That way, Jaime wouldn't have been off-screen for 5 full episodes.

My $.02.

Can't disagree with any of this. I could add to it, certainly, but my overall issue is theremoval of things from the book that I loved and that I consider important to make room for the addition of things that, at this point, seem superfluous and out of step with the rest of the series that adheres more closely to the book.

Its not a matter of thinking 'Jaime/Littlefinger/Cersei didn't say that', its a matter of thinking that 'Jaimie/Littlefinger/Cersei wouldn't have said that'.

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does anyone know if the brotherhood with out banners are going to get any screen time? dondarion was in season 1 and they have mentioned them three times now. why would they do that if they are going to omit them? anyone have any insider knowledge?

The Brotherhood don't make an appearance until SoS so I don't think we'll see them this season.

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does anyone know if the brotherhood with out banners are going to get any screen time? dondarion was in season 1 and they have mentioned them three times now. why would they do that if they are going to omit them? anyone have any insider knowledge?

I think they'll have to bring them in at some point. Lady Stoneheart needs followers. Actually, without Dondarion there can't be a Lady Stoneheart at all can there?

Edited by Stanmore

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"I think they'll have to bring them in at some point. Lady Stoneheart needs followers. Actually, without Dondarion there can't be a Lady Stoneheart at all can there?"

100% true. i guess i should have clarified, I didn't really mean this season particularly. I am hoping they get a full fleshed story, as it was one of my favorite things in all the books. I also hope that season 3 or 3.5 or 4 end with the reveal of zombie cat like in SoS, that was an awesome thing to read.

Edited by timstanton

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Just saw the episode. So far I was happy with the way they were doing things but now it's getting out of hand. It feels like the plot barely moved. I cringed many times at changes and how the episode seemed a big Lannister-charm offensive at times. So far the changes had been okay with me but right now some of them just seem irreversible to me. How is Daeny going to meet Xaro Xoan Daxos again later when he already betrays her like this now? Not, I guess. Okay then. Wasn't the way Jon joined up with the wildlings pivotal to his story? How is he going to win their trust now? Jeez. Jaime admitted he f-d Cersei, what the hell is going on? Cersei is admitting Joffry is a monster, what the hell is going on? Kit Harington has destroyed the image of Jon I had, I'm sorry, I tried to like him but he's a disappointment, although I realize the writers are to blame for this rather than the actor. The Mountain looks ridiculous! Bonus points for a couple of good laughs involving Brienne though: the quote already listed above when Cat says her name, how sternly she took Jaime's remarks, and most of all her conversation with the announcement guy who burst into the tent. When she bit 'man' at him I really lost it. So eh, I won't give up hope 'cos this is only the first episode that made me cringe but I hope the next episode will ring a few more bells rather than fall into irrelevant dialogue that isn't based on anything.

Edited by StannisandDaeny

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Note to David Benioff and D.B. Weiss: For God's Sake stop using Ian Whyte as Ser Gregor Clegane!

The camera even looks as if it's trying to hide him! Plus his voice sounds dubbed. He's a great White Walker. Send him north!

We don't even need the Mountain in this Season.

As for the carping about about Emilia Clarke. She seemed fine to me in The North Remembers and The Night Lands (Alan Taylor directed those, but went by lightning fast!) (After all Clarke was one of the surprise stars of last year)... the I lay the problems at Benioff and Weiss's feet, it's their baby. Nothing wrong with Dany becoming more assertive, I thought George didn't do enough of this in the novel. But why does she have to spiel such fire and brimstone when she is smart enough to know she does not have an army and the dragons are too small to be effective? Logic is taking a holiday within her dialog. That's the teleplay writer's job.

With Gemma Whelan (if we really see her again) and Carice van Houten it's take on character, demeanor and projection... I don't blame it on the actresses. Tho lately van Houten has been given some better latitude.

From here on out it's Alan Taylor and the well regarded Neil Marshal.

And George and D&D , maybe the next three teleplays will fix all sins?

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Ygritte actress is pretty good to me. When my wife came down and saw her on the TV, she said "You're watching Downton Abbey without me?" LOL Same actress, not quite the same role....or world for that matter.

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I'm glad someone agrees. I've taken most of the changes in stride. You know, as long as it leads to the same end. It's kept things fresh for those of us familiar with the story and while I don't always agree with the changes, they still work. But this one has me flustered. Jaime's my favorite character after all! I cannot imagine him actually doing this. Yeah, he's done some horrible stuff. I'll never deny that. But this specifically felt entirely out of character for him. He just... isn't all scheming like that.

After reading book three and four, I kind of started viewing book two, in regards to Jaime, as kind of a cooling off period. You hate him so much in the first book, but then you barely see him in the second, and in the one scene he's in, he doesn't really do anything besides mock Cat (which is kind of funny) and relate a story that makes his killing of Aerys more understandable. I'm not saying that this is what makes him likable, but all the time away from him helps to cool the anger one feels towards him. Now it's just been rekindled all over again! I was already worried that his redemption might not get across so well on television as it did in the books. Now I'm more concerned than ever. I immediately told my brother who was watching the show with me that Jaime did NOT do that in the books. My parents who have also read them were also annoyed.

Yeah, I haven't minded a lot of the changes they've made but it's quite different if it's one's favorite character. They seem to be going in the opposite direction with Jaime (more villainous) and Cersei (more sympathetic). I shall adjust to it if I must 'cause I enjoy some of the reinterpretations. Though, non-book readers are missing out on Ultra-cold Tywin, whispery Roose etc. but at least they're spared bat-shit crazy Cersei.

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Jeez. Jaime admitted he f-d Cersei, what the hell is going on?

Actually, that's canon, taken straight from the book - from his conversation w/Cat:

Not knowing how long this game might continue, Catelyn wasted no time. “Are you Joffrey’s father?”

“You would never ask unless you knew the answer.”

“I want it from your own lips.”

He shrugged. “Joffrey is mine. As are the rest of Cersei’s brood, I suppose.”

“You admit to being your sister’s lover?”

“I’ve always loved my sister, and you owe me two answers. Do all my kin still live?”

<SNIP>

His smile cut. “I’ve never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I have been truer than your Ned ever was.

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Perhaps Jamie's even-more-villainous TV persona will set him up for an even stronger redemption arc.

That said, why the hell would he kill Cleos when beating him up would accomplish the same goal?

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why the hell would he kill Cleos when beating him up would accomplish the same goal?

Actually it wouldn't, he'd have another person to worry about, either having to take him along, or yelling out to call even more guards. All he needed was a quick distraction and enough noise to bring the Karstark kid into the cell...pure Jaime.

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Really? Would you prefer that we are introduced to a Karstark who already has a grudge against Jaime? Or that they had introduced Karstark last season just to have his son killed, and then had to awkwardly remind us of it now? Changes like this are the kind that are absolutely necessary for an adaptation. It was the only way to make Karstark's story work.

Karstark was introduced last season in the "King in the North" scene, actually, he just wasn't named to the non-reader audience from what I remember.

Anyway, I didn't find Torrhen Karstark dying to be the problem, I just found it strange that they had him acting as a prison guard. It has nothing to do with the books vs. TV show adaptation argument that other people are having, it just didn't make sense to me that a highborn man would be doing a common soldier's job. I'd have preferred if he died, say, catching Jaime during the escape, even offscreen.

Edited by Ser Hippie

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yeah I actually fell asleep during this episode and I am a rabid fan! Cant even really recall anything from it, I'll have to re-watch with eyes wide open. The fast cut scenes are killing me. and I want more San/San!

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Actually it wouldn't, he'd have another person to worry about, either having to take him along, or yelling out to call even more guards. All he needed was a quick distraction and enough noise to bring the Karstark kid into the cell...pure Jaime.

So he should have beaten him senseless then. Having Jaime set out to kill him was for added shock value, nothing more.

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Didn't read the book?

If you read the aforementioned quote, the lack of understanding is in relation to the Other Posters statement about it being horrible to shoot on-screen. Which imo is crazy, just a shot of a giant chain being made or a mention from someone about the blacksmiths being held up by the hand. Also I think its clear that ive read them.

It also seems that atleast a few people here think this is actually an implausible thing or that it just couldn't work. This is actually a Real military defense tactic from the middle ages to protect harbor's from invading ships.

In the Blackwater its effectiveness was due to after it being decimated by wildfire, whatever ships that might have survived(however intact) to possibly run ashore or even to escape to fight another day, were ripped to shreds & those resulting deaths would have been catastrophic.

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I liked episode very much, but what got me worried is that i cried in Tyrion & Cersei scene. o.O

I also cried at last scene, but that was to be expected, coz it was so emotinal.

I also liked Jaime's escape & confrontation with Cat, Pyat Pree & Co, Jorah visiting Quaithe, and Yiggrite.

Iceland and Harenhall view were stunning.

Cant wait for the next episode.

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yes, the scenes are so short ... it gets really noticeable.

I am not so sure what to make of the new Mountain. He is definitely less impressive than the guy from season one, but from the little I saw of S1 Mountain I got the impression he was a truly horrible actor. That cartoon glower when he opened hs visor to bow before king Robert, and how he shouted "sword" and thenstomped off at the end of that scene ... it all seemed so artificial and affected. Might be the new Mountain was the better choice.

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Actually, that's canon, taken straight from the book - from his conversation w/Cat:

Not knowing how long this game might continue, Catelyn wasted no time. “Are you Joffrey’s father?”

“You would never ask unless you knew the answer.”

“I want it from your own lips.”

He shrugged. “Joffrey is mine. As are the rest of Cersei’s brood, I suppose.”

“You admit to being your sister’s lover?”

“I’ve always loved my sister, and you owe me two answers. Do all my kin still live?”

<SNIP>

His smile cut. “I’ve never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I have been truer than your Ned ever was.

Under pressure, yes, it makes less sense he would simply decide to admit it by himself to make an argument to defend his honour (I f- my sister, har har, look at me I so honorable) when Cat hasn't even posed the question. There was more trouble with the dialogue, for instance

Theon: "After all, it's only just a game!" No, no it's not! In the next scene you're explaining to Luwin how important this whole thing is to you!

Brienne: "Threatening my lady is an act of treason!" When did Karstark threaten her? It should've been 'insulting my King is an act of treason' since he was referring to Robb.

No, they've done a good job so far but a large part of this episode bugs me, and mostly not for these little things I've mentioned.

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