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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

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Did anyone else think for a while that they might have been setting up Alton to fill in the roles of Cleos and Pod. He seemed to combine both characters quite nicely. Killing him off the way they did was a missed opportunity.

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I agree with you about the Robb sending her to Renly part, but disagree about the Jamie release. Just because it's in response to Karstark's raging doesn't take her agency away.

What in the world does that funny word “agency” mean there? Thus spake the OED:

  1. The faculty of an agent or of acting; active working or operation; action, activity.
  2. Working as a means to an end; instrumentality, intermediation.
  3. Action or instrumentality embodied or personified as concrete existence.
  4. Comm. The office or function of an agent or factor.
  5. An establishment for the purpose of doing business for another, usually at a distance.
  6. The office of an Indian agent, or the establishment forming the headquarters of one. U.S.

Pinky, are you thinking what I’m thinking?

I think so, Brain: it smells like postmodernist deconstructionalistic claptrap to me.

Egad Pinky! Did we really learn nothing from the Sokal affair?

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Several differences in historical chains. The ones in the US (No idea about the one in Turkey) were used to block rivers. At thin points in the river. I've visited West Point and the area around 'The Great Chain". The river there is not very big, less than half a mile, and it was chosen because it would minimize the speed for boats hitting it (and supported by a wooden wall). All of that considered, it was still thought to be a deterrent at most and it would not stop a ship committed to breaking it. 1. Blackwater Bay is massive (at least it looks like it on the map), in the description of the battle, Davos describes many warships in a row going full speed. It has to be huge.

2. Tyrion's chain is secret. The mechanism to operate something like that would be absurdly massive and that prevents it from having any sort of support in the bay itself.

3. How exactly did that massive structure get built with no one noticing it?

4. Who is manning the South side support, which would have to be in the middle of Stannis's troops?

It is one of those cool for fantasy things that would just look dumb if you saw it.

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I agree with you about the Robb sending her to Renly part, but disagree about the Jamie release.

With regard to the Jamie release, I think tv-Cat is being smarter than book-Cat.

I think releasing Jamie in response to a specific offer to trade him for the girls is smarter and more rational than sending him to Kings Landing on the assumption/ hope that the Lannisters will release her daughters.

Book-Cat's decision was an emotional decision after the boys' apparent death, and I thought it was stupid. Here, TV-Cat is rationally assessing the situation in Robb's camp and coming to the probably correct conclusion that Jamie won't last the night and she'll lose her bargaining chip. Just because it's in response to Karstark's raging doesn't take her agency away.

ummm book Cat responded to Cleo's information that Tyrion would trade the girls for Jamie, combind with the boys murders. Cat believes Tyrion will release the girls if Jamie is released. She is banking on tyrion's honor. In the episode last night all Clea (sic) said was the queen ripped up the paper so Cat has NO reason to think that releasing Jamie will result in her daughters release

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I agree with you about the Robb sending her to Renly part, but disagree about the Jamie release.

With regard to the Jamie release, I think tv-Cat is being smarter than book-Cat.

I think releasing Jamie in response to a specific offer to trade him for the girls is smarter and more rational than sending him to Kings Landing on the assumption/ hope that the Lannisters will release her daughters.

Book-Cat's decision was an emotional decision after the boys' apparent death, and I thought it was stupid. Here, TV-Cat is rationally assessing the situation in Robb's camp and coming to the probably correct conclusion that Jamie won't last the night and she'll lose her bargaining chip. Just because it's in response to Karstark's raging doesn't take her agency away.

ummm book Cat responded to Cleo's information that Tyrion would trade the girls for Jamie, combind with the boys murders. Cat believes Tyrion will release the girls if Jamie is released. She is banking on tyrion's honor. In the episode last night all Clea (sic) said was the queen ripped up the paper so Cat has NO reason to think that releasing Jamie will result in her daughters release

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Several differences in historical chains. The ones in the US (No idea about the one in Turkey) were used to block rivers. At thin points in the river. I've visited West Point and the area around 'The Great Chain". The river there is not very big, less than half a mile, and it was chosen because it would minimize the speed for boats hitting it (and supported by a wooden wall). All of that considered, it was still thought to be a deterrent at most and it would not stop a ship committed to breaking it. 1. Blackwater Bay is massive (at least it looks like it on the map), in the description of the battle, Davos describes many warships in a row going full speed. It has to be huge.

2. Tyrion's chain is secret. The mechanism to operate something like that would be absurdly massive and that prevents it from having any sort of support in the bay itself.

3. How exactly did that massive structure get built with no one noticing it?

4. Who is manning the South side support, which would have to be in the middle of Stannis's troops?

It is one of those cool for fantasy things that would just look dumb if you saw it.

All that is covered in the book. Davos notes that a tower has been constructed on the south side of the river, but that it's been built on a islet and is virtually unassailable from the south bank. The chain is large i'll grant you, but the principle is sound and there's historical precedent for it. When Tyrion first mentioned the chain in the books i could see what his plan was, and the payoff was very satisfying.

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Jon/Ygritte, while entertaining (I love her blue-ball quips!) is going in a direction I'm entirely not sure of. I'm just worried they might have Jon turncloack for real, not his storyline double-agent plot.

every double agent is half a turn cloak and so was lord snow.

i really dont see the difference, he's gonna go back to the nights watch when they are south of the wall anyway.

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You're the second person I've seen who has said that, and it makes a lot of sense. Although I have to admit that when I saw the scene, I was so focused on the idea that he knew who she was that I thought he made her eat so he could watch how she did it - lowborn girls eat in an entirely different way than girls of noble birth.

That's a great big Bingo. Without saying it, Twyin had noticed from square one that she did not speak like a commoner.

Does not eat like one, and then we have 'milord'- 'MY Lord' thing to finish it off.

He must know that Arya is missing... but could be does not know it's her.

Or... he does... then what? He has to leave next episode for the battle in E9.

He could have her jailed , maybe with Gendry and Hot Pie too.

That when she does the Jaqen 'trick' and has him break them out, tho that could be E10, thinking of the name of that episode.

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The size is (by far) the biggest issue, thats what would make it absurd visually (and realistically, but that is a lesser issue). Especially combined with the secret installation and mid battle lift. And still on the South tower, this somehow unassailable tower, which is int he midst of enemies forces, with a MASSIVE chain trailing into the water, which no one cares about? (Other than Davos seeing them).

I'm not trashing it in the books, it was kind of cool. But then i thought about what it would look like on film and I just can't see it looking anything but stupid and/or cheap (OH No Captain! That Chain has stopped us! *Cut to a a single shot of this monstrosity only seeing about 10 feet of it). For it to work on film, you have to see it go up, you have to see burning ships crashing into it. For that to be done properly would be a massive CGI undertaking which I don't think they could put into a TV budget.

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We have no reason to think Tywin knows Arya is missing. Tyrion assumed they had her when he left Tywin and made a point of saying how he has not been in contact with them. LF threw out the tester when he talked about Catelyn's daughterS to see if Tywin knew and he gave no indication. Now Tywin could be playing his cards very close to his vest with LF, but there is no reason to think he knows she is missing.

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As good as the ACTING is in the scenes with Tywin and Arya, we are missing so much that SHOULD be happening with Aryas development.

In Harrenhall she acted the mouse and trained and killed, critical steps to her becoming the super ninja she is destined to be. She is not getting much training walking from table to table in Lord Tywins solar.

So we are to believe she will suddenly go to being a super ninja? the basics have not been established.

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The size is (by far) the biggest issue, thats what would make it absurd visually (and realistically, but that is a lesser issue). Especially combined with the secret installation and mid battle lift. And still on the South tower, this somehow unassailable tower, which is int he midst of enemies forces, with a MASSIVE chain trailing into the water, which no one cares about? (Other than Davos seeing them).

I'm not trashing it in the books, it was kind of cool. But then i thought about what it would look like on film and I just can't see it looking anything but stupid and/or cheap (OH No Captain! That Chain has stopped us! *Cut to a a single shot of this monstrosity only seeing about 10 feet of it). For it to work on film, you have to see it go up, you have to see burning ships crashing into it. For that to be done properly would be a massive CGI undertaking which I don't think they could put into a TV budget.

Well if you're sure. Personally I think it could work quite well on screen without much more CG work than was required for the Wall, Harenhall or Qarth. I guess we all have our own limits of belief and we either see something as credible in a work of fiction or we don't. To me the chain was quite believable, and was one of Tyrion's finest moments, but i'm willing to accept that other people might disagree.

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I was pretty much totally correct/really close in my Quaithe/Dragons/Pyat Pree/HotU guess. Everyone was all "Uh uh! She wasn't in the 'Previously on Game of Thrones' clip."

It was the easiest way to progress her story line.

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Tywin placing a dagger into the very hand of his diminuitive foe was sublime, made all the more excellent as he turns his back on his little bird as if in uncaring nonchalance. Strange foreshadowing of brother Kevan’s last curtain call.

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and I find it completely unbelievable that Tywin does not have Arya questioned harshly

lets look at the facts

Lorch was a chief LT, killed on his doorstep by a poisoned dart. Poison is the weapon of FM, women, eunuchs and cravens.

Tywin KNOWS arya is a high born maid who has been lying to him

Lorch died on his doorstep, presumably with a note in his hand he grabbed it from Arya last epi, that note will tie Lorch's death to Tywins solar

Tywin is willing to kill 20 soldiers of his and burn villages etc, but not question his cupbearer?

COMPLETELY ILLOGICAL, ARYA SHOULD BE NO. 1 SUSPECT

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I hope Jon still has to kill halfhand, otherwise, whats his excuse?

Maybe, when he meets Halfhand, Rattleshirt will make him kill him and Qhorin and Jon will exchange a look like "Do it, boy!".... and boom!

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My only problem with this episode is that it's very obvious that Bran and Rickon are alive still.

When you read ACOK for the first time I think GRRM did a good job putting doubt in your head and making you think that maybe they are really dead. I watched that episode with 2 of my friends who never read the books, and they both thought it was very obvious right away that Bran and Rickon were alive still.

This. Such a poor execution of their faux deaths. So so obvious. It just goes to show the difference in televison and literature. There were too many visual clues to make it a surprising reveal. The walnuts were really unconvincing and the hanged bodies looked terrible.

The entire episode was a bit meh to me. I liked qarth but I really disliked winterfell (which is ironic since the latter is truest to the books).

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one thing the series is going to have a problem with ina few years is when Arya hits puberty, gonna be kind of tough picturing a post pubescent Arya as a 9 yr old FM acolyte

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