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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

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2. Tyrion's chain is secret.

It was?

I don't remember that from the book... except that I guess it was keep from being widely enough known so as spies would not find out.

If George put spies in those chapters of the book I don't remember them.

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The Quorin thing is still happening, according to episode summaries.

Good to know, even if they'll have to do some unnecessary adjustments to make it believable that Jon will indeed "defect" for noble reasons.

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Let's get this one out of the way: Tywin orders The Mountain to start burning and pillaging to find the BwB. Except he already ordered him to burn the riverlands in the last ep of season 1. What has he been doing, and what does Tywin think has been going on for the last 6 episodes?

Arya/Tywin is starting to get stale for me. It was really interesting, but they are beating it to death.

Dagmer isn't Ramsay, he's Syrio Forel. It is known.

I went through this on WiC, but in regards to Jaime killing Alton, instead of perhaps just injuring him or including him in an escape plan. I think Jaime would see him as just slowing him down in any escape, so he can't take him with him. He doesn't want to leave him behind either because he's still a Lannister and has some value as a prisoner to the Starks. His intention is to either escape or die trying, so as far as he's concerned he's never coming back to that cell. So in Jaime fashion he decides he just needs to kill Alton, and I don't think he spends more than 30 seconds figuring out this idea before he's committed to it. Then in a slightly more honorable fashion than with Aerys, he spends some time talking to him first so he's got some comfort. Then he's honest about what he's going to do to him. Then he kills him quickly before he really even has a chance to process it. So he's following a sort of Jaime morality about it. I don't think it's out of character for him.

I WAS okay with the idea of Cat releasing Jaime early, before she gets word of Bran and Rickon, if the show needed Jaime released earlier than that would allow. But if Cat is going to release him in the same episode that she finds out about Bran and Rickon, then what is the point of having her not find out first?

Rose Leslie is fantastic enough as Ygritte that I am taking a wait and see approach on how Jon's story will work it out. I don't see how Qhorin can be captured when they made a point of specifically having Ygritte tell us they wouldn't take Qhorin prisoner. So I don't see how this can work out well, but we shall see.

Three episodes in the row without Ros! If I didn't know GRRM was writing Blackwater I would be expecting they would make up for this oversight by having the entire battle narrated to us by Ros as she looks out a window getting fucked from behind.

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As far as Tyrion chain, how can it be a secret when every blacksmith and apprentice was told to start hammering links.

This is another disappointment. When Dragonstone and Pyke were shown, not a singlw longship appeared in on HBO's screen, yet in the book there are hundreds looming off the coast on both sides of Westeros. In light of this, the chain in the book makes sense. We get no action version of the book where soap opera BS talk and makeup are more important than the events pertinent to Clash of Kings.

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Ok - I posted this on the nitpick thread, but after reading this thread, I thought I should post it here too. Apologies for the repeat (if you've read that thread.) :)

My friend (who hasn't read the books), turned to me at the end of the episode with a look of horror and said, "ARE THEY REALLY DEAD???" To which I responded, "Do you really want to know?" He hadn't even noticed the two kids at the farm. So yeah - there are going to be plenty of people who think what they're supposed to think at this point (that Theon really would kill the Stark boys.)

As for the buildup to Blackwater - I think we'll get a TON of that next week. I hope so, anyway... and some talk about The Chain.

I might be the only person who is fine with all the changes so far. Remember, the books are all written from different POVs of certain characters (in/out of their head), so a lot of action happens off-stage and is only described in exposition by other people, whereas we are getting to see some of those events in the show (Robb and Lying Lady Talisa.) There is also the difficulty of PLAYING a character's internal mental/emotional narrative. That somehow needs to be put into live action instead of happening inside their head, because you just can't shoot that. That's why a LOT of the things that are being changed are being changed the way they are.

I'm not bothered with the changes so far, because I think they're going to work themselves out in the long run. Ones that come to mind:

- Twyin & Arya: Next week (Ep 8) Roose Bolton could show up at Harrenhall. We've seen a preview of Tywin rushing out (to Kings Landing) to help with the Blackwater. I don't have a problem with he and Arya conversing because it reinforces just how smart Arya is which is paramount (she's already killed three people - Jaqen helped with two), and is about to kill another to escape Harrenhall. It gives Tywin a lot more dimension than he's given in the books, which will make what happens later, a lot better. Of course he speaks to her - she's the only other person at Harrenhall with a functioning brainstem. I did love the "My Lord" vs "Mi'lord" from Tywin, only to be cleverly schooled by wicked smart Arya with the, "My Mother taught me how to talk "proper" (which is the low-born way to say it), followed immediately by, "properly." oh. snap. I'm sorry, WHO is smarter than Tywin Lannister? Yeah... that would be Arya Stark.

- Jon & Ygritte: I was worried until she got away from him last night. There's no reason that they haven't also caught Qhorin while we were watching Ygritte bait Jon. Establishing their relationship now, gives a lot more credence to what happens between them later. Otherwise, it might not be very plausible when she comes to his defense when her life isn't at stake. It also helps establish just how inexperienced Jon is with women, and how different Free Folk Females are from their south-of-the-wall counterparts.

- Ghost's absence: I don't have a problem with this. He goes missing all the time in the books, and that's what they're establishing: "He's a Direwolf, not a pet." Ghost chooses to be with Jon, as do all the other living Stark Direwolves (Nymeria shadows Arya.) I do wish they'd do more of this in the series, but there's plenty of time.

- Jamie & Alton: Alton says something to the effect of being a "distant" Lannister. By taking that into consideration with the rest of his tale, he is of low birth and that means not a REAL Lannister. I have no problem with Jamie killing him. We're already seeing the beginning of his arch with this scene, and everything he says to Alton, then his speech to Cat about all the conflicting oaths, and he saved the Seven Kingdoms when he killed Aerys, but no one can see that, so his bitterness is justified. Jamie doesn't know the future. He doesn't think he'll get caught, so his plan, at the time, is sound. He also knows he's running out of time - he's in a PEN (not a secure dungeon like the book), that could be breached by some drunken idiot with a burning desire to kill him at any moment (there must be bowmen in Robb's army.) Why wouldn't he do everything in his power to escape? To not do so, would be totally out of character. Having this scene also gives Cat more reason to let him go, otherwise he's going to get ripped up by the camp before Robb returns, and *POOF*, there goes her best way of getting her daughters back. Going forward, Cleos really was just dead weight in the Brienne/Jamie story line, which is why GRRM kills him off in the books.

- Jamie confessing in front of Cat & Brienne: He did in the books, so I'm not understanding why people have a problem with this. Just because he's not drunk in the dungeons of Riverrun while doing so matters little in the long run. Cat letting Jamie go really has more to do with getting Arya and Sansa back, so her getting the news of Bran & Rickon AFTER releasing him gives her even more justification for her actions. I don't see Cat cutting off Jamie's hand, because that would mean Jamie and Brienne can't have their mutual ass-kicking scene later on when they're taken by The Brave Companions. That's a huge point for Jamie's character development about how he sees Brienne. I can't see how they skip that. Having Brienne escort Jamie alone reinforces just what a baddass she is.

- Tyrion & Cersei: In the books Tyrion knows, and Cersei knows he knows. To play otherwise in the series would be to dumb-down one of these characters and be a gross disservice and insulting. Giving them that scene does three things: 1. It gives Cersei a bigger/better arch by making her more three dimensional than just being one-note evil. I think it's important to differentiate between the Joffrey degree of evil, and her. They are two different people. 2. It gave Tyrion that magic moment of wanting, needing, and instinctually going to comfort her, and discovering where the invisible CAUTION / DO NOT CROSS yellow tape was. In the book, he touches her, she recoils, and we know his hurt because that chapter is through his eyes. We don't have that internal luxury on film. 3. It gives more buildup to just how insane and evil Joffrey is, and that everyone with a functioning brainstem knows it.

- Dany: They're giving her a LOT more to do than they did in CoK. Stealing the dragons gives another note to GIVE ME WHAT I NEED RIGHT NOW that is Dany's only objective in CoK, which is too repetitive and one-note for the TV series. They're also setting up The House of The Undying and a justifiable reason for Dragon Woop-Ass.

- Robb & Lying Lady Talisa: In the book Robb's marriage comes as a shock. This way we see WHY, and we get to see more Robb. That is win-win for the show's ability to tell the narrative vs the books.

- Bran, Rickon, & the Reeds: I'll bet we're not going to see Bran & Rickon again until the last episode (so many non-book peeps will believe they're dead, with everyone getting raven scrolls about Theon killing them to reinforce this), and this season will end with the four of them exiting the crypts of Winterfell (minus the Reeds), just like the book. Next season they can meet up with the Reeds, because they need to separate Bran and Rickon somehow, and need someone other than Hodor to look out for Bran. This way they give Osha more screen time before she disappears with Rickon, and the overall narrative stays the same.

Things I am missing that I think are needed at some point:

- The Reeds - Can wait for next season.

- Ser Dontos for all the Sansa escape stuff - but there really is plenty of time for this, since it's very repetitive in the books, and could wait until next season.

- The cache of Dragonglass at The Fist - since Jon has already gone north, they can wait for this until next season really, especially since it's more The Slayer's story than Jon's.

- Weasel - how are they going to do Weasel soup? I'll miss that if it doesn't happen, but they could get the same outcome with other events.

There are three main scenes I thought when I read the book that they HAD to have this season, and would spend $$ on:

- The riot (which was only missing horses - which is fine, and impossible to film without hurting someone with horses in that space.)

- The House of the Undying (she has reinforced this with her claim this season of "My dreams come true.")

- The Battle of the Blackwater - just hope they don't skip Tyrion's chain.

I still have faith.

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Tywin is willing to kill 20 soldiers of his and burn villages etc, but not question his cupbearer?

COMPLETELY ILLOGICAL, ARYA SHOULD BE NO. 1 SUSPECT

Is that a joke? Why in the seven hells would he suspect a little girl servant?

All the kids are aged-up, except, apparently, Sansa.

Sansa was aged up too... Edited by Morrigan

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I really hope they still give the Halfhand a chance to give his last order to Jon. How else will they justify his turncloaking?

I'm still confused if the change in circumstances for Cat's releasing Jaime makes her more or less of an idiot. Instead of only Cat getting the surprise (married Robb), Robb will have a shocker when he gets back from the Crag. Also, knowing that Robb's bannermen are very much aware of, and despise, Talisa, why hasn't she been assaulted yet? Raped, harassed, verbally abused, whichever. She's a "foreign bitch" getting the attention of war-torn men. Something should have hapened by now.

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I really hope they still give the Halfhand a chance to give his last order to Jon. How else will they justify his turncloaking?

I'm still confused if the change in circumstances for Cat's releasing Jaime makes her more or less of an idiot. Instead of only Cat getting the surprise (married Robb), Robb will have a shocker when he gets back from the Crag. Also, knowing that Robb's bannermen are very much aware of, and despise, Talisa, why hasn't she been assaulted yet? Raped, harassed, verbally abused, whichever. She's a "foreign bitch" getting the attention of war-torn men. Something should have hapened by now.

I watched the promo for next week and the Halfhand is imprisoned with Jon so I guess we'll get his order that way. Also, both Robb and Catelyn get their surprises (albeit it's in SoS not AoK). I think Catelyn is releasing Jaime because she knows with Robb at the Crag and Karstark looking bloodthirsty that Jaime (and thus her daughters) were screwed cuz Karstark was pretty much ready to murder Jaime.

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Three episodes in the row without Ros! If I didn't know Martin was writing Blackwater I would be expecting they would make up for this oversight by having the entire battle narrated to us by Ros as she looks out a window getting fucked from behind.

Doggone it, I really wish folks would use spoiler tags! It’s past my bedtime, and now that image is going to be hounding my dreams all night long. And you know she’ll be on a leash, too, with studded doggy collar and everything.

You may disbelieve, but I think you’re barking up the wrong tree by thinking Martin wouldn’t pull whatever bone out of his backside that is asked of him. Not even the Great Master himself could overcome The Problem of Ros, so why should you get off any easier?

D&D chart out each seasonal decalogue, then hand off individual writing assignments to their kennel of well-heeled writers to produce the requisite doggerel.

If George’s assignment included an episode frameworking of Ros dogging it the whole battle long in supervisory sexposition, make no bones about it: you know he’d really dig it. You know they’d never let him off his leash long enough to chase squirrels.

Ros baby, you fetching narratrix of the Blackwater you, here we come! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrruffu!!!

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Book interests are entirely different than HBO show interests as far as revelations... With thousands of pages we have more than enough time to worry about eye color and who a character really is and all these different mysteries to solve. There is no time to have a show progress in such a short amount of time and then expect it to benefit the viewer experience by including all these flashbacks and sidestories (sidestories with regard to the show because fact is we would never have enough time to be able to really enjoy the results). For those saying its not enough to say its an adaptation I just disagree. I agree with the frustration because there is SO much I would love to see on screen after my experience with the books, but I know the time allotted would never accommodate that notion. But the fact is a TV show has to have added elements to attract a wider demographic for this shows survival. Its not a book where you can survive with less readers and still finish the series... its a TV show that without attracting more and more people from all walks of life we will never come close to seeing the on-screen ending.

Some changes just have to be made because we have no time for 20 POVs. Look how rushed it looked having what... 5 POVs in an episode? Some things have to be sacrificed. And look how boring Dany's storyline is in the books to the point where people almost murder eachother going insane on how little progress she makes so how would the writers of the show expect to have that little happen and keep viewers with a character like Dany people are now so enthralled with? They had to add story to her world or else we would all hang ourselves watching those scenes. And whats wrong with making some twists so that we, as readers, can have the potential luxury of watching an episode and not knowing exactly whats going to happen every step of the way. I love not always knowing where theyre going. Who the hell wanted to go see The Sixth Sense if somebody had the shocker ruined for them that Bruce Willis is really dead? The show is a twist on a phenomenal backing story. I dont want to have a checklist of 100 things and cross them off in order 1 after the order when they happen, I want the possibility of new things happening for us.

Sadly I feel like the whole world of flashbacks and hidden meanings/prophecies is just way too much for a limited TV airing to convey so we will just miss out on most of it until the books address it all. Theres no care whatsoever about Jons mother on the show or figuring out the truth of a lot of things we go through in the books. It sucks but its expected.

As for what happens with Alton, who cares? He was a made up character anyway. And it was NOT out of character of Jamie in the slightest bit. Jamie is an arrogant, selfish prick lol. He did as is expected for his own survival. With Cersei saying Joff is a monster basically but then saying oh yeah why would she call if he is killed? Theres a little bit of a difference between saying yeah my son has turned into a sadistic a*hole and saying I dont care if my son is murdered.

The negative here I feel like is just the whole season, we came into this season expecting some greatness about the direwolves.... but where the hell are they? Wheres the warging concept? We could certainly benefit from using more time on showing these storylines..

In conclusion... enough anger that the show isnt as epic as the books.. There is not enough time for the epic to be told on screen, and never will be. The second we accept this is the second we can sit back and just enjoy the show. I dont recall hearing people care about the variations to X-Men or Avengers as venomously as ASOIAF readers seem to care about the differences here. Accept the very definition of "BASED ON". My main concern here is making sure GRRM finishes our books. These shows are a great way to get me through my time waiting. Be happy guys... its not like the writers butchered the show like Eragon got butchered ruining that phenomenal series. This is a great show.

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Don't get me wrong a lot of the changes I have really liked and have found entertaining but am I the only who wished they pulled more dialogue straight from the book like last season? There hasn't been as much and there are some really good lines they could have used but didn't.

Edited by Warden of the North121

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One funny detail: I was amused by the mention of Balon Swann. He's one of those little characters I really enjoy !

I was completely astonished to hear that. I wonder what it portends?

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Tyrion's chain has to be a secret or it's not much of a trap. As I said, it's fine to gloss over these things in print because it's no big deal and it's a fun little scheme. However, when you put it to film, you see the massive undertaking this thing would be and it becomes silly.

I looked up that Constantinople Chain (thanks btw, it was pretty cool). It's about 800m in length according to the map on Wikipedia (and it was floated for support). Again not close to the size that Tyrion's would have to be. But really, the reality of this isn't my main problem It's fantasy, dragons fly, warlocks get the Loki magic trick and guys who look like me get hot babes. My (expected) issue with it was going to be how it looked on film. Ships in battle are incredibly expensive to film, now add green fire (CGI can handle that). With the money they are dealing with, it's either going to be a cheap stage Prop (the 10 ft length/ Godzilla's hand prop), or a monster CGI shot which needs to interact with these expensive ships. If you had Peter Jackson's budget for The Hobbit, it would probably look cool. Here I think it wouldn't. Something like this isn't something you can half-ass.

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Not like the dummies they used in the show :D I don't know, they just looked silly to me, swinging in the wind and all.

Not like the dummies they used in the show :D I don't know, they just looked silly to me, swinging in the wind and all.

I wonder if their resemblance to the murdered men on the bridge at the Battle of Fallujah was coincidental. I recall how strikingly horrible this was in RL.

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I was completely astonished to hear that. I wonder what it portends?

I dont think we will see Balon Swann in the show, so for me that was just a little tribute to the character and something to please us book-readers.

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Ships in battle are incredibly expensive to film, now add green fire (CGI can handle that). With the money they are dealing with, it's either going to be a cheap stage Prop (the 10 ft length/ Godzilla's hand prop), or a monster CGI shot which needs to interact with these expensive ships. If you had Peter Jackson's budget for The Hobbit, it would probably look cool. Here I think it wouldn't. Something like this isn't something you can half-ass.

Agreed that you can’t let it be half-assed. Remember that the showrunners went back and asked HBO for another 15% of funding. Also remember that they spent an entire month filming Episode 9, “Blackwater”. Put that all together, and I almost dare to hope that it won’t be half-assed after all.

I was thinking that The Hobbit wasn’t all that much better endowed financially than Game of Thrones, but quick napkin calculations say I was wrong. Peter Jackson has $500 million for perhaps six to eight hours of show. David and Dan have $69 for ten hours of show. That means PJ has about the same amount of money for one hour as D&D have for their full season, so call it ten times as much.

That’s not peanuts.

On the other hand, if we got ten ten-hour seasons once all were said and done, that’d be a hundred hours of show. The price per hour will still be only ten percent of Jackson’s, but there will be incredibly more show as far as viewing time goes, and in the end, Game of Thones will indeed end up spending more money than The Hobbit will, which goes back to my original idea of The Hobbit not being all that pricier. It is when looked at per hour of viewing, but not necessarily in the aggregate.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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And I'll say this again - name a poster that has said they require a 100% adaption. Because different posters disagree about different points does not mean that anyone requires or expects a 100% verbatim TV show.

The only 100% correct adaptation I have seen is Silence of the Lambs. that was AWEsome.

2001:A Space Odyssey is close, but technically not an adaptation since the book and movie were done together.

I am always grateful when the movie (or TV show) doesnt completely hash the book.

Exhibit A: The Natural.

I am happy that the main points of the book are there and the talent is so good - writing, acting, etc, etc.

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Tyrion's chain has to be a secret or it's not much of a trap. As I said, it's fine to gloss over these things in print because it's no big deal and it's a fun little scheme. However, when you put it to film, you see the massive undertaking this thing would be and it becomes silly.

Remember in the novel Davos suspects something?

He wanted Imry Florent to send some of Salladhor Saan's swift ships to scout the harbor for traps and things like that.

Like French Knights Florent and his captains voted Davos down.

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