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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

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Sansa was aged up to...

I guess so. I was thrown by her first flowering, but I guess it isn't unheard of for a girl to have it later than the average age.

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I have nitpicked some other stuff, and I wish they were doing more with some of Tyrion's other machinations, but the chain thing didn't become cool to me until its purpose finally became evident very close to or during the battle itself in the book - before that I just didn't get why Tyrion was having the blacksmiths waste their time making all these links and I was sort of annoyed by the repeated references to it. As a result, I am sort of relieved they seem to be leaving it for the Blackwater episode itself, although I would liked to have seen more about the wildfire preparations, since its value is more intuitive and also important when it comes to the Aerys was going to burn down King's Landing revelation (has the show told us that yet? I don't think so) . If the chain isn't in the actual Blackwater episode itself, however, I will rant and rave and throw a fit, because I thought the river of fire with the chain mostly trapping the ships in was absolutely awesome.

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Maybe Tywin knows Arya is Arya and he wants to keep her around as a prize for the RW. However, he doesn't want to drag her all around through battle so he leaves her in the care of his bannermen figuring she won't escape. What Tywin doesn't know is that she's crafty and has Jaqen to help. Hopefully weasel soup is intact. I read an interview with Maisie Williams where she said she was looking forward.

They are not cutting that whole thing with Qhorin so relax! People thought last week that they wouldn't have the Theon killing Bran and Rickon fake out. They aren't going to take out something that important. They better keep Ghost in that scene though!

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This is really nitpicky but one thing the books and show get wrong is the amount Sansa bleeds during her period. The average amount of blood over the course of an entire period is 1/8 of a cup. Do men seriously think we hemorrage once a month? This was also an issue in Carrie. Men should consult Judy Blume first when writing a puberty scene!

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I guess so. I was thrown by her first flowering, but I guess it isn't unheard of for a girl to have it later than the average age.

Since she has already had her telarche (initial breast development), it would be only be a diagnosis of delayed puberty if she had not had her menarche (first period) by 16 years of age. How old is she supposed to be on the show?

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Since she has already had her telarche (initial breast development), it would be only be a diagnosis of delayed puberty if she had not had her menarche (first period) by 16 years of age. How old is she supposed to be on the show?

They've never said, but she was 12-13 in the book, I think. She seems 15-16 to me in the show, and the actress is 16. All the kids are aged-up from what they were in the books.

Edited by J.S. Crews

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Pumped at the lil mention of Balon Swann. I was hoping they would have introduced at least him and Mandon to make the Blackwater that much more intense and interesting. To know some of the key fighters and leaders would be cool...

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After watching this episode and the preview for 18, I can safely say, they destroyed the best part of ACOK (for me), the Jon Snow story... alright, there will be a fight with Qhorin, I knew there would be... but that's not enough!! They completly took out warging, Ghost and the eagle, the hunt of the NW men, of course, the discussion between Jon and Qhorin.... what is the point?? why would the wildlings want to keep Jon alive?? in the books it was the direwolf that got their attention.... Now what? just because he is the son of a Stark?? that would be a good reason to just kill him, not keep him around. Maybe things will look better when all of this sink in, but how could anyone believe that Jon would defeat alone the greatest swordsman in the NW?? :(

Oh, I forgot, so Tywin suspected all along that Arya is highborn (nice introduction of the m'lord/my lord thing), but how in hell would he have let her still work in the kitchens??? That makes no sens, I am sure this is the same for non book readers. She would make a perfect hostage, a little torture/pressure, whatever and she would confess who she was. Ok Arya had an explanation, a good one I thought, but before that Tywin had an oppinion, and he didn't act on it??? What is going on with the script???

PS: I guess no chain, bummer

It was stated before the season started that there is a great scene with Tywin where he shows the humanity he has )an probably avoids a name being given to a man). I suspect we have not seen that scene yet, and I also suspect Tywin knows exactly who she is.

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which goes back to my original idea of The Hobbit not being all that pricier. It is when looked at per hour of viewing, but not necessarily in the aggregate.

Yes but its relevant because that ridiculously large amount of money enables the ability for more effects, more characters and props, more companies lining up to do work on the show and for the show, and the fact that people will be paying every single time they go see The Hobbit means more money to be made to compensate for the money spent. GOT doesnt have that luxury. And its a bigggggg difference between 70 million and 500 million.. lol its like the diff between a crappy 10k used car and a gorgeous 70k car... Ahhh if only this show had that kinda money to spend!! Of course with the Hobbit they have that other luxury of having lots of characters but basically it all revolves around one or 2 groups/parties. Its kinda like stuff is happening we just dont see it or care, unlike our GOT where we are part of 7048 diff aspects of the story... I cant imagine what LOTR wouldve been like if we hopped around from Rohan to The Shire to the Elven Forest and all different POVs back and forth.. itd be impossible to cover all that but LOTR never really focused on all of that. Those other areas and storylines were passing thru points and minor moments.... ASOIAF makes every aspect part of our experience and thats why its so difficult to put into a show or a movie. But wow if we actually had the time to show everything with more episodes and longer episodes.. thered be no naysayers... Well maybe a few but itd all be for good reasons, not for things thatd be resolved if we had more time and money.

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In a lot of ways, I almost felt like this episode was specifically designed to shock people who read the books. There were at least three occasions where I sat back in total surprise.

I liked the Qarth changes a lot. Dany's time in Qarth was rather boring in the books, so I'm glad they're actually having things happen there in the TV show. Xaro and Pyat Pree's coup was believable, and it establishes them as serious and credible threats for Dany. I'm really looking forward to seeing the House of the Undying next episode.

I also like the dynamic between Tywin and Arya, it's absolutely brilliant character interaction. I don't think it's as out-of-character for Tywin as people think. He's in private with a lowly serving girl, it makes sense he'd let his guard down a little bit. I can definitely see how Arya would remind him of Cersei too. I don't think these scenes make Tywin look weak either, he's always made it very clear to Arya that he's her master. He's a master who can be kind to his servants when they serve him well, but he's still careful to make sure they don't get too comfortable around him. In my opinion this is completely consistent with the way Tywin was portrayed in the books.

What happened with Jaime, on the other hand... I have very mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, it was incredibly well-done. I was suckered right along with Alton into thinking that Jaime was a decent guy trying to be friendly. I felt like I'd been punched in the gut when the poor sap got murdered, which is a lot more than I felt when Cleos Frey died in the books. I can see why Nikolaj Coster-Waldau said it was the best scene he'd ever done, and I'm inclined to agree with him. In terms of writing, acting, and directing, it was a superb scene.

My problem with the scene is that it effectively makes it impossible for Jaime to have a convincing redemption arc, as he does in the books. This version of Jaime is a cold-blooded sociopath. He's about as close to irredeemable as you can get. Unless they completely change around his role later in the series, I don't see how this characterization could possibly work in the long run.

Also, they had Jaime kill Karstark's son during his escape, rather than on the battlefield. It makes sense for a TV show, since it'd be hard to build a plot around something that happened off-camera last season, but it makes Karstark's attitude seem a lot more sympathetic and reasonable. (I know Jaime killed some Riverrun guards in the books too, but that was never why Karstark hated him.) I'm also baffled by their choice to have Catelyn free Jaime before she finds out about Bran and Rickon's "deaths," that was the one mitigating factor that made her decision understandable. The way the show's portrayed things, I'd be on Karstark's side.

For the VAST majority of non book readers, I suspect throwing a 10 year boy out of a window is far worse than killing a really remote relative to try and escape

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I guess so. I was thrown by her first flowering, but I guess it isn't unheard of for a girl to have it later than the average age.

lol itd explain why she was so uptight

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I think the wailing and gnashing of teeth in righteous indignation when there is not a SINGLE vision in the House of the Undying will be epic.

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The thing with Jon and his plot change is we might not have him warging Ghost, further into the story the fact that he is a warg seems like it will be important as it will for Arya, Rickon and already is for Bran.

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I'm terribly sorry to ask this, if it has been asked before (don't want to read 28 pages!) But during the thirteen scene where Pyat Pree slits everyone's throats, did he kill Xaro as well? because right after that scene Xaro was nowhere to be seen.

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They've never said, but she was 12-13 in the book, I think. She seems 15-16 to me in the show, and the actress is 16. All the kids are aged-up from what they were in the books.

She was 11 in the books and 13 in the show IIRC. She should be around 14 now.

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Is Aflie Allen a legit contender for Best Supporting actor??? I think so! And Ygritte is everything I hoped she would be... amazing

No unfortunately he's not. Peter Dinklage and Kit Harrington are the nominees for the Emmys this year. Maybe Kit steps up during the later episodes but so far I'm not impressed at all.

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I am starting to like the changes from book to show. If not for the changes it would be mostly traveling and eating

Sorry man, this episode was so painful I have kind of lost hope for the rest of the series. And as a preempt, I am not a book "purist", but I do love the story and character dynamics, and to be honest, the HBO series has kind of wrecked a lot of the dynamic that was dear to me, and can only be something vaguely similar in plot to ASoIaF for me at this point, and I thought season 1 was great. What is great about the book series is after all the characters and their dynamics, without this, the series is just any other fantasy plot (and GRRM himself acknowledges this). Let's go over what was so wrong with episode 7:

1) Jaimeanderthal - His murder was extremely out of character for him. Some of you have been like "ZOMGZ BUT HE KICKED A BABBY OUT OF A TOWER THATS WORSE CUZ BABBYS R CUTE". Please, killing bran was an inescapable necessity for preserving his love life and the kingslayer part -- need we mention Aerys was a MAD KING who burned people alive in his throne room, and was highly unfit to rule? What Jaime would do for love... well, I can tell you killing his cousin was not (nor was it portrayed as such) killing "for love", it was killing because he was greedy (or "evil") -- and that is completely out of character for him. Jaime is awesome, and a great character has now been ruined.

2) Tywin-or-you-die-or-you-give-Arya-your-dinner - A man who would have a full barracks of women rape a woman of lower class to prove to his son that all women of lower class are whores in that they want a lord for their money -- this type of man would not give a serving girl his meal. He would certainly not COMPARE his daughter to a serving wench.

3) Cersei-iously? What happened to the self-entitled spoiled princess in her? What happened to the one who in the future does very mean things to her brother she seemingly bonds with (or is willing to cry in front of.....) There is a reason why Cersei actually crying for the first time in the series feel cathartic -- and that's because she would never boohoo like she did in episode 7.

4) Ygritte-my-teeth-in-exasperation: Well, let's let it slide that the actual development of the love story is butchered. "You know nothing Jon Snow" was for me a metaphor for the clash of civilizations their impossible love tryst is, not a metaphor for "You aint never felt me warm wet soft innards ye crow". To be quite blunt, she came off more like a whore from in Kings Landing than an strong experienced battle-worn independent wildling.

5) Don't-Shae-Nuthin-To-Nobody-Or-I'll-use-this-butterknife-to-make-you-toast: For those of you who recall Shae's later actions, you know this was not only stupid of her but also out of character for her to try to "save" Sansa (How wrong is it to think of the Unreal style announcement "First Blood!" during the Sansa scene?). Not to mention she really doesn't have any incentive to -- she's a whore/servant, since when did she have loyalty? And fine, fine fine! She is a loyal whoreservant. Then PLEASE explain to me where this loyalty of hers goes in aDoD? She is more loyal to a random princess she serves than a lord who has given her all of what she has, and is even loyal to her? Or are they going to ruin that love story as well!?

So, yeah. As another preempt to the insecure Anti Criticism League, I DO like what the series overall did with Greyjoy, Arya, Sansa, Brienne, C aetlyn. So please don't try to pull that "This guy is just in a sour blue balls mood and is taking it out on the internet, haterz gonna hate" lines to dismiss any valid articulate criticisms of the HBO series, PARTICULARLY this season. It's dropped it's standards pretty low.

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