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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

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I might of missed something here, but isn't Sansa supposed to of received the anonymous letter from ser Donto's/litlefinger by now ?

My first post by the way.. Hi all ! :D

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Let us make this clear: The show is not the books, the books are the books. If you love the story in the books so much that watching a different story truly upsets you, then re-read the books. Think for a moment about how unreasonable it is to be mad when a different medium ends up being different.

Reasons why this was the best episode to date:

- Charles Dance (Tywin) is staring to prove that he is the most talented actor on the show. His scenes with Arya have been absolutely outstanding. The growing tension we viewers feel in those scenes around Arya's identity is incredible, and I'm really enjoying being tricked into liking Tywin. Also, the show has so few oppertunites to get the history of Westeros in unless the characters talk about it.

- The Jaime escape scene is a really nice nod to the style of the books, even if that scene doesn't actually take place. The characters in the books, especially the Lannisters, use their superior command of language and conversation to make their moves for the throne. The show has a difficult time doing that because of time (think about how abbreviated the conversation between Tyrion and Janos Slynt was when he got him to admit his betrayal of Ned Stark). They really let Jaime be Jamie in that scene to make his move the way book-Jamie would have.

- People have found the Ygritte/Jon scenes to be slow, but not only is she extremely funny, but their conversations are doing a nice job of getting the history in. That is perfectly set up for what Jon has to do next.

- As they said in the "Inside the Episode" piece, that scene between Tyrion and Cersei was incredible. She has nobody else to talk to but her brother, but she hates him. Her brother has a desire to comfort her but it feels awkward. The Lannisters have so much depth to them now instead of a black and white distinction of evil over good. One can ALMOST pity her in that moment.

- I actually thought the Qarth chapters in the book were pretty boring. I'm enjoying those scenes way more in the show.

The fact that one can easily guess that the burned bodies are not Bran and Rickon is a little disappointing, but the reveal is going to be so much quicker in this format than the books. There would only be what, two episodes where you thought they were dead? Still, this was a weak point in the show, especially since they were trying to make such an epic moment out of it and didn't quite get there.

Edited by A Clash of Crows

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I might of missed something here, but isn't Sansa supposed to of received the anonymous letter from ser Donto's/litlefinger by now ?

It does happen fairly early in ACOK, but this subplot doesn't mature until well into book 3. But people are going to completely forget about Dontos if he never appears on screen. He was supposed to be there in the throne room scene where Sansa is beaten too.

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I might of missed something here, but isn't Sansa supposed to of received the anonymous letter from ser Donto's/litlefinger by now ?

My first post by the way.. Hi all ! :D

Welcome to the board!

I don't have the book in front of me now; but I think Sansa should have definitely met Ser Dontos in the godswood by now, or at least had the letter. By the time they get around to it in the show, viewers who haven't read the book will have forgotten who poor Dontos is.

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Jaime ,as he was being led away after being recaptured,to Cat "Why you've turned into a she-wolf in your old age.There's no more fish left in you".

ETA At least that's what I think I heard??

Edited by redriver

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Jaime ,as he was being led away after being recaptured,to Cat "Why you've turned into a she-wolf in your old age.There's no more fish left in you".

ETA At least that's what I think I heard??

Ah that makes sense, I couldn't catch the last part, I heard the she-wolf bit though :)

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It does happen fairly early in ACOK, but this subplot doesn't mature until well into book 3. But people are going to completely forget about Dontos if he never appears on screen. He was supposed to be there in the throne room scene where Sansa is beaten too.

I thought as much, I think the actor that plays Dontos is great too. Maybe Sansa's story arc for this season will end with the secret note, but then that would kind of throw off Sansa's parts during the battle of BW, unless ive got my timeline a little muddled here, i'm sure Sansa takes advantage of the commotion to escape to the godswood where it is revealed Dontos wrote the note. Also the whole Hound and his birdsong scene.

Welcome to the board!

I don't have the book in front of me now; but I think Sansa should have definitely met Ser Dontos in the godswood by now, or at least had the letter. By the time they get around to it in the show, viewers who haven't read the book will have forgotten who poor Dontos is.

Thanks for the welcome :D

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It does happen fairly early in ACOK, but this subplot doesn't mature until well into book 3. But people are going to completely forget about Dontos if he never appears on screen. He was supposed to be there in the throne room scene where Sansa is beaten too.

He actually was in the throne room, but he didn't do anything and didn't put a.. watermelonthing (?) over her head. If you look closely, you will see him.

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I thought as much, I think the actor that plays Dontos is great too. Maybe Sansa's story arc for this season will end with the secret note, but then that would kind of throw off Sansa's parts during the battle of BW, unless ive got my timeline a little muddled here, i'm sure Sansa takes advantage of the commotion to escape to the godswood where it is revealed Dontos wrote the note.

This happens earlier, the night she gets the note. There's indeed a commotion that Sansa take advantage of the first time, but I believe it was just a mob of angry people. She then starts going to the godswood regularly. I believe it's at the time of the Blackwater that Dontos gives her the hair net.

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He actually was in the throne room, but he didn't do anything and didn't put a.. watermelonthing (?) over her head. If you look closely, you will see him.

That's not exactly going to help non book readers is it.

Anyone watching with a non reader who guessed the Bran Rickon ruse straight away?

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That's not exactly going to help non book readers is it.

Anyone watching with a non reader who guessed the Bran Rickon ruse straight away?

No, of course it's not really helping. But he was there, that's all.

From what I hear; not many nonreaders guessed the Bran/Ricking ruse. GRRM killed Ned Stark, that was a HUGE surprise to every nonreaders so I guess they will think 'Okay, he has done it before, he's doing it again.' Especially because of Maester Luwin, that scene was beautifully done.

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Edit : My browser is strange

Edited by Raja

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It's a common way to mash up two words in fandoms.

But to what purpose? That’s what I fail to understand.

What special nuance is conveyed by using an old-school UUCP bang path over and above the sense conveyed by using the hyphen, space, or possessive form from standard orthographic convention?

In other words, what does “show!Arya” buy you that “show-Arya” or “show Arya” or the “show’s Arya” fails to provide? Sure, I suppose you can stack them just like any other bang path, having “1st-season!show!Arya” and such, but again this cries out for an explanation of what it buys you over using standard typography.

Noun-noun compounds, whether hyphenated or not, have been around in English forever, although the unhyphenated version has admittedly increased in popularity over the last century or so.

This innovation must be filling some gap that would not be filled by using standard orthography, or it wouldn’t exist. If not, it would be — well, twee. You know, precious.

What extra semantic is carried by using old-school bang paths like this? I feel like I’ve been left out of the club. Please explain your secret handshake! ⦅;⁍}>⋯

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No, of course it's not really helping. But he was there, that's all.

From what I hear; not many nonreaders guessed the Bran/Ricking ruse. GRRM killed Ned Stark, that was a HUGE surprise to every nonreaders so I guess they will think 'Okay, he has done it before, he's doing it again.' Especially because of Maester Luwin, that scene was beautifully done.

Really? I found that the bodies flung up were less than convincing. Perhaps having something more grotesque would have done the trick , maybe something more personal as well. Maybe something Bran or Rickon used to carry . Because to be frank if anyone has watched any other television show , any off screen death of major characters does not really prove to be true . Thought they could have done better with that scene in particular

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Actually there's no need for speculation because I just remembered that Sansa's age is given right in the first episode of the series. Cersei asks her how old she is and Sansa answers that she's 13. Which means that she is now 14 and that Arya was probably 11 but now 12.

When does she say her age? At the feast? I had forgotten that somehow. :bang:

Good catch.

Edited by J.S. Crews

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Jaime's sudden vulnerable moment with his cousin was pointless to me. I would have rather them spend that extra 4 minutes or so on his talk with Catelyn so we could get the backstory on how Brandon and Lord Rickard died and how he really became the Kingslayer and how the rebellion started.

1. The TV audience doesn't need a double dose of how Brandon and Rickard died - Jaime has already told that tale to Ned in Season 1, so we do not need to waste any time on it in Season 2. Especially if Jaime is also going to tell that story to Brienne in Season 3.

2. The Jaime/ Alton conversation was very good, especially when you listen to what Jaime was saying about youthful dreams and ideals. The dialogue was not just a set-up for the murder, but also a great insight into Jaime's own character and how the knight of his boyhood dreams has now become "Kingslayer".

I know there are often complaints whenever an episode shows 'slow' scenes with just dialogue, but often the key action or character developent IS through dialogue scenes. A TV show cannot rely on extensive exposition or POV memories as in GRRM's books, so that sometimes, lengthy sections of dialogue play a critical role. You just have to pause, listen and hear what is being said!

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Robb was 14 in the first book and 15 when he became King in the North.

The North must have different standards then, otherwise Robb would require a Regent to rule in his place until he turned 16. Either way, my point was that they've aged he and Joffrey up in the show. Richard Madden is 26 and looks it; calling him 18 is a real stretch -- calling him 15 is beyond any hope of suspending reality, imo. Plus, they clearly say in Season 1 dialogue that Robert's Rebellion was 17 years ago, as opposed to 15 years ago in the book. Joffrey is, likewise, played by a college-age actor and looks it. I guess I can buy him as being about 14 to keep him of an age with Sansa, but it's a stretch. He looks and acts 16-17.

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