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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

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"You know nothing Jon Snow"

Since Ygritte come in play I've been waiting to hear her say that.

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They're doing the Theon at Winterfell part nicely, I think, although they made it relatively obvious that those were not Bran and Rickon's bodies.

I agree. People who haven't read the books after the scene they were sure that the bodies weren't Bran's and Rickon's.

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The bodies looked ridiculous. It would've been more mysterious had they only tarred the heads and dressed them in Bran and Rickon's clothing as per the book. Also, Theon's worried face at the end gave it away that it wasn't them.

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The bodies looked ridiculous. It would've been more mysterious had they only tarred the heads and dressed them in Bran and Rickon's clothing as per the book. Also, Theon's worried face at the end gave it away that it wasn't them.

Really? His face looked guilty to me.

Bran and Rickon being alive was pretty obvious in the books, so I don't really see what's so different here.

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LOVED this episode. I particularly liked how Dany did some soul-searching, the whole "who am I? who are my people anyway? am I any better than my brother?" bit, for me this COMPLETELY redeemed her cringe-worthy "I will take what is mine with fire & blood rawr!" petulance from the previous episode, which was one of the very few scenes this season I've intensely disliked. Now, it just fits in perfectly with the growth of her character.

The only real WTF moment for me was Jaime killing his poor relative, it seemed a bit gratuitous.. surely a less lethal distraction could've brought the guard in to investigate. But hey, this is the guy that shoved Bran out a window, I have no problem whatsoever believing he'd kill ANYBODY he thought would help him get back to Cersei. They are just reminding the audience of how dangerous and impulsive he is, in advance of his impending release. I do hope they manage to tie in the news of Bran & Rickon's deaths to Cat releasing Jaime.. that is a pretty critical and far-reaching decision on her part.

Love the Jon/Ygritte stuff, I think it will add more complexity and uncertainty (ie, good drama!) to him turning his cloak. (I am assuming Halfhand still manages to pass his final order to Jon somehow, this can still easily happen). Ygritte's first "You know nothing, Jon Snow" was just epically perfect.

Theon -- fantastic. A little thrown by Bran & co. not doubling back and hiding out in the crypts, but this is not an essential plot point and I can understand them simplifying things here (although, how DID they get away then? Theon losing their trail still needs to be explained somehow).

Agree with others that there is really no chance of the audience being "tricked" into thinking the bodies are Bran and Rickon's... my buddy I watched it with didn't buy it for a second. But then you don't REALLY buy it in the books either, for the same reason... we're never shown their actual deaths.

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I couldn't WAIT for my non-book reading wife to freak out about Bran/Rickon. She didn't even flinch. But I think that has to do more with "if I don't see them being killed, then they aren't dead" television phenomenon.

I can't remember what I thought when I first read that. I probably read it, looked at the table of contents, saw more Bran chapters, and then breathed a sigh of relief.

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Actually it wasn't that normal to be married off at 12 during middle ages. Well, it did vary, "middle ages" does cover time period for hundreds of years and average marriage age did not stay the same all the time. However, there were times when average marriage age was well over 20 years even for women. There were many reasons for this; for instance at some point church took over marriage deciding it was one of the sacraments and so blessing of a priest was required for a couple to be legally wed. This was not free and many poorer people needed years to collect suitable amount of money which meant that they were forced to delay their marriage.

For nobles and roayl persons things were of course different. They were sometimes married off very young so in that sense GRRM is quite correct in his books even though it does creep me out (and is one the reasons I don't want to read the books, sorry).

According to the text, Juliet dies just short of her 14th birthday, and her mother, Lady Capulet says to her:

Well, think of marriage now. Younger than you,

Here in Verona, ladies of esteem

Are made already mothers. By my count,

I was your mother much upon these years

That you are now a maid.

So she had Juliet likely just after her 13th birthday.

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Well, actually one of the reasons for my reluctanse to read these books IS the fact that I enjoy the series so much. Firstly, I tend to prefer tv-productions to books. It has happened with Jane Eyre, Pride & Prejudice, Lord of The Rings and with many other "books turned to tv-series/movies" which is why I really doubt that I would think ASOIAF is better than GoT. And actually stuff that I've read here on this forum has only made me more convinced of this. Take this Catelyn's decision to free Jaime. Sure, I haven't read books but from the debate here I got pretty goot idea about her motivations to do so in book universe. However, I really prefer her motivations in the show. Freeing Jaime based on a emotional decision while you have NO guarantee that Lannisters free her children is stupid. And what's even more stupid is that she doesn't even have any way to make sure that Jaime actually gets to King's Landing without being killed on the way which would then result to her daughters death.

I much prefer show Catelyn, at least based on the information here and on other sites I've looked for info about ASOIAF. And this brings me to my second point: I like show characters so much that I don't want to "spoil" my mental image of them reading the books and being influenced by the same characters there. I understand that this might sounds horrendous to people who love these books but that's the way it is. This is something people rarely understand in my way and need to consume fiction so I won't dwell on it deeper. This is a discussion about the episode 7, after all, and not my relationship with the series or books.

I haven't really taken part to discussion here because I'm pretty conscious about my English but I do read this forum a lot end enjoy discussions and debates here.

I have no idea what your first language is, but your English is awesome. Your sentence structure is better than 70% of the population of native speakers.

I totally know what you're talking about, and I too feel that way about many novels vs Films/TV. Anna Karenina comes to mind, along with LOTR (just couldn't finish them, and LOVE the films.) I am so excited about The Hobbit coming out with PJ at the helm, I can barely contain myself.

I hadn't even heard of the books until I finished watching last season, and was so in that I couldn't wait an entire year to find out what happens. I'm now on book 4.

I agree with you, I like a lot of the show characters much better than the book, probably because I saw the show first. I'm also very familiar with screenwriting, and the difficulty in adapting novels to film, that I understand and so far, have no problems with any of the changes. I too like Show Catelyn better. But I'm glad I also know Book Catelyn.

I can only speak for myself, but I see the books as icing on my giant ASOIAF cake, and quite enjoy seeing how D&D&GRRM are working their way through the adaptation. The books are fascinating, and for me, has only made my show experience better.

Edited by bardgal

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I either literally can't fathom what your saying, or I am calling bs. If you actually read the books of aSoIaF, there is absolutely no way you would say that you like the tv show better.

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but not everyone thinks exactly like you.

Just because someone disagrees with you, it's no reason to bully them on an online forum.

I'm reading the books, and watching the show. I am not a purist, and am enjoying BOTH. FACT: There are things I like better in the show. Call BS all you like, it doesn't make it true. But by all means, stay in your little bubble.

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Perhaps you haven't noticed, but not everyone thinks exactly like you.

Just because someone disagrees with you, it's no reason to bully them on an online forum.

I'm reading the books, and watching the show. I am not a purist, and am enjoying BOTH. FACT: There are things I like better in the show. Call BS all you like, it doesn't make it true. But by all means, stay in your little bubble.

Hear hear. I second that. Both have pros and cons. The books are very rich in characters and world building but they can also become bogged down by that richness. The tv-show is an excellent drama, very suspenseful and entertaining, but it can feel rushed from time to time.

Although I do have to agree with others that one can only make a fair comparison by having read/watched both. That much seems obvious to me.

Oh, and I don't understand how people initially didn't believe bran and rickon were dead in the books. That seemed essential to me. It was only after the reveal that I started to get used to (and increasingly annoyed by) GRRM's habit of faux-deaths. They were the first weren't they?

Edited by Dragon greyscale

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Sure, a lot of people didn't buy the hanging tar babies - but to say the reason is that they didn't "look real" I feel is silly. Theon still killed two kids (in the story.) He didn't hang up fake props from the Westeros Weta Workshop™.

That said, a lot of people think Bran & Rickon are really dead. I know, because I know them and they've told me. All I said in response to when they said, "ZOMFGWTF! Theon really killed BRAN AND RICKON????" was, "No one is safe. Period. We lost three main characters last season, Ned, King Robert, and Kahl Drogo." Thankfully, they took that as my answer, and have no idea this website exists. ;) I can't wait for them to call me the second they go back to Bran & Co in the last episode of the season... "But you said....." :cool4:

Tywin has ZERO idea Arya Stark is his cup bearer. Seriously. Who told him? Littlefinger? No way. Littlefinger was at King's Landing when it happened, so he's partially responsible, and he'd not only look bad, but Tywin would wonder why the hell wasn't he told when it happened?? Littlefinger may have recognized her, but he's keeping his mouth shut for now (if he even knows Arya is missing.) Cersei? Again, no way. She was there too. Tyrion? Same. They all bear the blame of her getting misplaced, so finding her, before Tywin figures it out, or hears about it, would be better. Not much different than the books. So if no one told Tywin that Arya is missing, why on earth would he think she'd miraculously escaped custody and made it all the way to Harrenhall without being caught or getting dead? If he thought his family was that incompetent he might just call it a day and kill them all, die of shame, or jump off a cliff himself.

Tywin will find out. But it's not going to be until he gets to King's Landing and figures it out himself. Why would D&D&GRRM rob Charles Dance of such an awesome discovery scene?

Jon will be put into the same cell/pen as QH. They'll have their little chat, and QH will give him orders. All will be well.

As for JonWarg, there is plenty of time for that. Everyone who finds out about him that first time in the books, never make it back to the Fist to tell anyone anyway. So there's no reason he can't begin to go through all that with Mance & Co. The outcome will be the same, and they save $$ on a CGI eagle this season. I haven't given up on that yet.

At least that's what I think will happen... :D

Most of the $$ this season was probably spent on the Blackwater, and HotU. Going to film on location in Iceland is actually saving them money.

Edited by bardgal

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I don't remember that part of season one at all? When did that happen, right before they squared off outside Littlefinger's whorehouse? Secondly, I did listen to what Jaime was saying. Knowing all along that he was going to try to escape, I'm not sure I buy that it was all from the heart and that it gave us some insight into his character. He only starts sprouting that stuff once Alton tells him that he squired for him and that it was the best day of his life. I think he told him what he wanted to hear to serve his own purpose. Jaime even in chains is all about Jaime. The Jamie we come to know who starts becoming introspective and really thinking about what his legacy will be only starts appearing when he loses his hand and his life goes to crap. I think at this point, all he is interested in is being great and killing people.

The scene with Jaime and Ned is at the start of Episode 3 in Series 1, where Ned arrives in KL and enters the throne room. Jaime is sitting on the steps near the throne, waiting for him. Yes, it's a "TV special" scene, but it's excellent. As for the Jaime - Alton conversation, you say you listened to it but I don't think you 'heard' what was being said. One of the things about Jaime, both in the books and the show, is that he is often extremely truthful when being flippant, sarcastic or seemingly just casual. There was quite a bit of 'real' Jaime in that conversation.

Edited by Currawong

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Men do not have a history of being oppressed, so Asha's comment is not offensive in the way that Arya's comment is.

Is that really relevant? I know I have no place to tell people what they can and can't be offended by but bringing up the oppressed stuff seems like you're looking for Arya's line to mean more than it does. Arya hates the typical "lady" type and if I recall the books correctly, she plays it very fast and loose with the word "stupid". It seemed like something she would say. Westeros is a sexist world; this isn't really an example of it.

As a guy, there was a situation in my life where I was treated badly by a female authority figure because of my gender. It's not that big a deal but I didn't like it at the time yet Asha's line didn't horrify me because of it. And her comment is much more vulgar.

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This is unfair "booksnobbery." I've read all the books and I am finding that I am liking the portrayals of all the characters on the show better. Even the way the plot is progressing is fine by me. Someone does not have to read the entire suite of books to like/dislike the show and have a valid opinion. The show is its own entitiy. I think, as one who has read and loved all the books, that the books have slightly poisoned my viewing of the show now. I understand the hatred for the show because it does not follow the books word for word now as Season 1 followed book 1. We now have the unfair expectation that season 2 = book 2, season 3 = book 3 etc...

Fuggetaboutit... that is NOT going to happen and can't happen. The books offer muliple parallel stories in the same time line. GRRM repeatedly warns us in each of the books after GoT that this is going on. There's no way to make the story unfold on TV like that and include everything without getting bogged down in minutia. That being said, it's very possible that since time and the stories are getting stretched out and rearranged, there are more chances to put more of the book content on screen since HBO seems to be content with keeping the show on the air for a long time. I shudder to think what will happen if HBO gets cold feet and destroys the show like they did Deadwood after 3 seasons. The horror....

A great part of me is excited to find out the new story being written in our beloved universe on the TV screen. It was the TV show that sucked me into reading the books in the first place which was a stretch for me because I too prefer watching to reading. The same happened to me with the Lord of the Rings movies, another great example of an adaptation that had to make some pretty serious comprimises in order to get the story on-screen. I wish they had 20 hours to tell the Lord of the Rings story instead of the 9 to 10 hours of all the movies. Maybe we would have seen Bombadil?? Let's set aside our snobbery and see what unfolds as I would rather have the show than nothing at all.

Not one person that I have seen is freaking out about the changes that are understandable, changes for reasons of time and budget are fine. Same goes for changes that must be made do to the fact that we can't hear the characters thoughts. Stuff like that, those changes are fine, not one person is complaining about that. It's all the ridiculous changes that don't make any sense, those are the ones people don't agree with. When they are changing things just for the sake of being different, that's what people get mad about. Its the little things really that doesnt make sense. For example, in the books, Qhorin has four men that go with him into the Skirling Pass, counting Jon. The show also has four men go with Qhorin including Jon, so if they kept the same amount of men, why change the names of two of the characters? In the books it's Qhorin, Jon, Stonesnake, Ebben, and Squire Dalbridge. Yet in the show they changed the names of Ebben and Squire Dalbridge. It's not a huge change, but why do it?

In the first season, they showed Jon developing as a character, they showed him getting over himself and they showed him growing up. Yet now in season two, it's like they forgot about all that great character development with Jon, by making him say things like "I fought and killed a Wight. How many Rangers can say that?", in an attempt to persuade Mormont to let him go with Qhorin. Jon would never say that, especially to Jeor Mormont his Lord Commander, and especially not infront of other Officers. So when they make Jon look like an idiot like that, not only are they not staying true to the book, but they are also contradicting their own character development that they gave Jon in season one. In every episode so far, that had Jon in it, they found a way to make Jon look extremely incompetent, and there really isn't a reason for it, other than just for the sake of change. By making Jon give some dumb ass reason for why he wants to go with Qhorin, not only are they changing how Jon goes with Qhorin, but they are also destroying great back story, for why Qhorin chose Jon, like in the book.

Another thing people don't agree with, and that's the fact that the show has changed entire personalities and motives of characters. They have made some characters more likable and some less likeable. For some characters, it is a coin toss, half the fans like them, and the other half hates them. Yet the show is changing some of these characters, and by doing that they are basically saying that the audience should or should not like that character. D.B. Weiss has said Stannis would be a bad King, and that is just his personal opinion, which is fine, people can have there own opinions. However, Weiss's opinion of Stannis is showing in the character on the show, because they made Stannis way more unlikeable than the books, and I have a big problem with that. It should be up to the viewers to deside how they feel about a character, the writers personal opinion should not be obvious in the adaptation, because there is no evidence in the books saying Stannis would be a horrible King. There is some evidence that he would be a good King, and other evidence that he might not be.

Also, when GRRM agreed to let them do the show, they made it seem like they would stick to the books as best as possible, especially because that was GRRM's wish(for them to stick to the books as best as possible), and I believe that for the most part, they did that in season one. Yet in season two, they have made a score of pointless changes, just for the sake of change. The changes I am talking about have nothing to do with the budget, and nothing to do with time restriction etc... When you make an adaptation, you should stick to the source material when ever its possible. If you don't want to stick to the source material, then why make an adaptation? If you can't stick to the source material, then you should make your own story, you don't half ass copy someone elses story. Especially when GRRM feels that same exact way about adaptations.

For the record, I am not against every change. I love the changes with Margaery Tyrell's character, I think they were well done and it is synergetic to combine Margaery's character with the character of Olenna Tyrell. I really like scenes with Arya and Tywin, I believe they are very well done, and the two actors are absolutely great together. I am not sure yet how I feel about the changes with Jeyne "Talisa" Westerling, I have to give that more time. I really like the dialogue between Jon and Ygritte last episode, Rose Leslie is doing a great job. I just wish they would have gone about those scenes differently, for how they got to the dialogue. It made no sense for Jon to spare Ygritte, and then chase after her. It made no sense for Jon to be lost, unable to find Qhorin, after only running, at most 4-5 hundred meters. It made no sense that Qhorin, this badass Ranger, could not track and find Jon. Also, the change with Arya and Yoren was fine.

So not all change is bad, it's just the change that is pointless that makes people mad. They should not be changing things just for the sake of change alone, and when they do make changes, they need to be well done. They have taken out alot of really really good scenes from the books, only to add in some pointless made up scene for the show.

If you have read all the books, and if you claim to love the books, I have a really hard time believing that you could like the show more. If you love this story, it makes no sense that you would like the show more. The books give you just way more, they give you more characters, more of the world, and just more of the story. So for anybody to love the story, the books are going to be better automatically, because they give you way more of what you love. How could you love the story in the books, and then proffer the cliff notes version? Not to mention all the changes that aren't accurate to the books, in the show. It just makes no sense to claim to love something, and then proffer the shorter version. That's like saying you love a person, but you would proffer to only be with them for 10 years, opposed to 50. How could the shorter more mainstream version be proffered? The show has tried to make the story appeal more to the average person, when the books are more controversial and stuff, and that's why the books are so good, you either love them like crazy, or they are not for you.

So I don't get the whole, "I love the books and I have read all of them, but I like the show better" stuff. Like for real, have you really read all of them or what? Because if you have, there is no contest. Very rarely is a show/movie better than the books, and with aSoIaF being such pure gold, it's impossible for the show to be better. Even if the show was as accurate as possible, it still would not be better, because no matter what they would not be able to include everything from the books. They can't include every character, things have to be on a smaller scale etc etc, it just not possible with these books.

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So I don't get the whole, "I love the books and I have read all of them, but I like the show better" stuff. Like for real, have you really read all of them or what? Because if you have, there is no contest. Very rarely is a show/movie better than the books, and with aSoIaF being such pure gold, it's impossible for the show to be better. Even if the show was as accurate as possible, it still would not be better, because no matter what they would not be able to include everything from the books. They can't include every character, things have to be on a smaller scale etc etc, it just not possible with these books.

So you don't get that people have different opinions than yours ?

You basically said that the books are better because they have more stuff. Ok..

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It's all the ridiculous changes that don't make any sense, those are the ones people don't agree with.

There haven't been any ridiculous changes that don't make sense, which renders the remaining points moot.

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Look.. the worst that happens is that you start the first book and say "meh.. not for me". But, at least give them a go!

Some of the folks I've introduced to ASOIAF are watching each season, THEN reading the book, which seems to be working-out pretty well for them.

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Men do not have a history of being oppressed, so Asha's comment is not offensive in the way that Arya's comment is.

Or perhaps neither of them are offensive in the slightest and you're being far too sensitive.

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< dons flame retardant suit >

< discards flame retardant suit because ninja don't need that shit >

I like the guy playing The Mountain in this episode. He may not be as physically "huge" but his voice was great and his face is way more like I pictured him in my head.

He was far better this week, but I still like the other dude better.

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Perhaps you haven't noticed, but not everyone thinks exactly like you.

Just because someone disagrees with you, it's no reason to bully them on an online forum.

I'm reading the books, and watching the show. I am not a purist, and am enjoying BOTH. FACT: There are things I like better in the show. Call BS all you like, it doesn't make it true. But by all means, stay in your little bubble.

Wow. You guys are awfully sensitive. Bullying? Really?

Edited by J.S. Crews

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