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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

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Thank the Seven! Daenerys has an interesting time in Qarth instead of simply receiving gifts and going around with bells in her hair. I'm definitely okay with Jon and Ygritte's relationship being established earlier rather than later so it shows there's already some sexual tension. I'm excited for the Jon/Ygritte scenes, which have to be the only sex scenes from the book that I looked forward to seeing. "Lady Talisa" is Jeyne and she'll reveal herself and she'll be like "Oh yeah I lied. Great liar, aren't I? Let's get married!" Also, I hope Cat will get the news about "Bran and Rickon" before too long.

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I think they "jumped the shark" on Dany's story . too much deviation . . JMO everything else is solid. 9/10.

I find this insane. So little happens in Qarth in the book and they need to give one of the shows big stars something to do. This is adaptation 101 stuff here.

What should she be doing for 10 episodes then?

I loved the changes.

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Couldn't disagree with you more. Those Jon/Ygritte scenes were awful. It felt like Ygritte was a hooker trying to land a customer. The writers like to emphasize the celibacy of the watch. They did it earlier with Craster (which was never in the books).

You're "it's an adaption" logic could justify the changes made in season 1. But this season's changes have gone way beyond necessity but rather to soothe the writers' egos. And pretty much all the changes have made the story weaker.

well you can think that if you'd like. I've read the books, several times. I know what's going on. If the show depended on just pleasing the book readers it would've been cancelled last season. This show is for book readers AND new viewers like my dad, my aunt, my two cousins, couple of guys I went to high school with. I believe the writing is to keep them involved as well as us. So changes have to be made like Jaime squiring for Ser Barristan rather than the Sword of the Morning. We as viewers can say, "Oh yeah, I remember that old knight!"

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Yeah I saw that. I thought there was going to be another tag with "until the final episode" but nope, they just left it like that. Maybe the promo folks are so excited about the Blackwater they forgot there's another episode after that?

Anyway as for this episode, its a mixed bag. I liked almost all the individual parts but I thought the episode as a whole was just a little underwhelming; possibly due to a noticeable lack of Tyrion until near the end. I like the Jon/Ygritte interaction but I'm just not sure how they are going to have that story go in a place that makes sense. On the other hand I'm totally on board with the Qarth changes. Pyat Pree is nuts and since none of it really matters in the end I really like having a storyline that I have no idea where its going. Tywin/Arya was fun, although I'm ready for her storyline to start to move forward again. Theon's still such a shit; also I think they made it very clear that those bodies aren't really Bran and Rickon. I'm so glad Jaime is back in the story again too; and he knocked his scenes outta the park. I agree though that it would've made more sense for his scene with Cat to wait until she heard about Bran and Rickon.

Would've been better, but it worked for me this way as well. Bran and Rickon, notwithstanding, she fears (and rightly so) for what will happen to her girls if the Karstarks kill Jaime.

Edited by J.S. Crews

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Are we assuming Catelyn is freeing Jaimie? Isn't it more likely she is just going to cut off his hand first.

Oooh. Very creative idea, but I doubt it.

That being said...will we get The Goat?

As much as I hate Joff and Ramsey, I'm not sure that The Goat isn't my most hated entity in the ASOIAF world.

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I really like the changes to the Qarth storyline; this makes waaaay more sense than what happened in the books. I never understood why nobody ever moved against her in the books; as weak as her khalasar was, somebody should have moved against her while they could, and either captured or killed her dragons.

I'm waiting to judge the Jon's storyline. While I love this Ygritte more than the books, but the way it's playing out is just dumb. Why would Qhorin be so stupid as to leave Jon snow behind like that? The only thing I could come up with was that he expected Jon to screw up because he's a Stark, and planned for him to be captured so they could ambush Rattleshirt and interrogate him for intel.

The music in the last scene was completely inappropriate to the close. They overdid it, and it seemed pretty obvious that it's not Bran & Rickon just based on the rules of TV Drama. I suppose that's inevitible, though.

One thing I didn't like was Shae pulling a knife on the handmaiden; that's just dumb.

I also don't like Jaime killing Cleos Alton. That seems way out of character, even for him.

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Are we assuming Catelyn is freeing Jaimie? Isn't it more likely she is just going to cut off his hand first.

Cat is about to hold Brienne's sword to his chest and make him do quite a bit of vowing. I won't say anymore...

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Not sure about who the orphans will end up being. Might be the Frey cousins, or perhaps the Reeds.

The orphans were from a few episodes ago, when Bran sent them to help that guy build his walls (or whatever it was he wanted help with). Now they're bodies are the fake Rickon and Bran.

I do find it curious that they didn't hide in the crypts. And how are they (or even WILL they) separate Bran and Rickon. Bran obviously needs Hodor to carry him, and Osha appears to be taking the place of the Reeds.

When Bran and Rickon approached the farm, there was that shot of Summer and Shaggydog...and then later Theon and his band with their dogs. Theon fought with Robb and presumably saw the carnage that Grey Wind could do...I wonder if he had any thoughts about going after 2 direwolves with a handful of men and dogs...

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Jaime... is problematic. The changes really caused damage here. He is now shown to be utter scum, killing a relative who idolizes him just to have a shot at fleeing. That will not only make his half-redemption that much less convincing, it also makes Karstark's actions slightly more reasonable. This is the first (and so far only) serious misstep from the TV series so far.

I'm glad someone agrees. I've taken most of the changes in stride. You know, as long as it leads to the same end. It's kept things fresh for those of us familiar with the story and while I don't always agree with the changes, they still work. But this one has me flustered. Jaime's my favorite character after all! I cannot imagine him actually doing this. Yeah, he's done some horrible stuff. I'll never deny that. But this specifically felt entirely out of character for him. He just... isn't all scheming like that.

After reading book three and four, I kind of started viewing book two, in regards to Jaime, as kind of a cooling off period. You hate him so much in the first book, but then you barely see him in the second, and in the one scene he's in, he doesn't really do anything besides mock Cat (which is kind of funny) and relate a story that makes his killing of Aerys more understandable. I'm not saying that this is what makes him likable, but all the time away from him helps to cool the anger one feels towards him. Now it's just been rekindled all over again! I was already worried that his redemption might not get across so well on television as it did in the books. Now I'm more concerned than ever. I immediately told my brother who was watching the show with me that Jaime did NOT do that in the books. My parents who have also read them were also annoyed.

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I really want to watch an episode with Trebla's dad.

LOL! My mom told me that on Easter he said everybody had to be out of the house by 7:30 because he had to watch "Game of Kings". He's starting to know the names now though rather than just The Little Guy, The Tough Little Girl, The Gay King, The King with the Red Woman, Khalessi, and The Dirty Twins. :P

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Being desperate to get back to Cersei is not at all out of character for Jamie. I mean he tossed a kid from a window for her, so killing some nobody (to him) is no different at all.

Edited by Rev1619

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There are just two major issues I have with the episode.

1) Catelyn should NOT release Jamie before she finds out about Bran and Rickon. The action of betraying Robb (which is what it is) only makes sense under the prism of her finding out about Bran and Rickon's death.

2) Jon getting captured by the wildlings at this point in the story. I'm hitting the panic button on this yet. The episode summary for a later episode indicates this storyline will get back on track somehow.

On #1, I'm hoping that maybe she doesn't release him yet, but hides him, tied up in her tent or something? I don't know. I'm just grasping at straws.

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While I believe that there were similar lines in the books, I couldn't help but notice that Cersei does a very poor job at hinding her belief that Jaime is the father of her sons. She all but told Sansa so, and seems not to have even noticed it. I must assume that Sansa heard the rumors, and by now she must have at least half a belief in them.

Cersei slips up like this a couple of times in the books--this occasion with Sansa and later, when telling Tommen that he'll be as good in tournaments as his father. In the latter case, Margaery coyly calls her out on it. I think it's evidence that, although Jaime never really considered the kids to be his, Cersei clearly did.

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Wait til they chop off his sword hand. Pity is a great catalyst for a change of heart on a character. Cersei's walk and Theon's castration/flaying are other examples of this phenomenon.

There are villains and VILLAINS in ASOIAF. Joff and Ramsey - just nothing horrible enough there to change opinion.

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The reason Ygritte was so over the top in her attempted seduction was intentional in my opinion. She was distracting Jon while walking him into a trap.

That would make sense for one scene, but they had 3 scenes where their conversations were essentially the same. She couldn't have been trying to lead him into a trap for 3 scenes.

Her character comes off as different from the book version to me. But that's probably because none of this dialogue ever happened in the books.

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First Impressions:

The episode went REALLY fast. Like last week, I didn't enjoy Ygritte in the books, and I don't like her on the show (she is smoking hot though). Quorin will still order Jon to kill, don't get all your panties in wads.

Theon is great, well done. I didn't understand the walnut Dagmer found.

Robb and Not Jeyne. Don't care, she's meaningless in the books, and doubt she will mean anything here. (Both of Ned's boys romances bore me)

Arya and Tywin continue to be excellent. I am surprised he didn't leave this week. Harenhal was amazing.

Tyrion and Cersei was a good scene.

Dany and the 13 was a nice addition, I am finding that story much more interesting than the books. Story > Some silly mysticism.

Jaime's escape was underwhelming. I was expecting them to really turn him loose this episode. Instead it happened off camera, like the books. Big disappointment Also, I don't understand having him kill Alton, his face turn is going to be tougher to buy with this. All of his awful things have always been for a damn good reason. This was not so much... They can try to frame it like he had to get free to save his son and Cersei. It does not fit with that scene. He killed Alton because he didn't like being tied to a pole.

I said this last week, there will be no chain. This is a relief as it seemed stupid in the books and would look just plain awful on film.

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It is COMPLETELY WRONG for cersei to hate joffrey and express that to Tyrion.

It makes ZERO sense.

Who is going to believe her reaction when she thinks Tyrion killed her son

HBO is screwin up too MUCH, they are ruining a great story

Who in the NW will believe Jon when he comes back

Why will any of the WIldings believe jon and trust him to go over the wall

Jamie killing his family member= COMPLETELY WRONG, he is now irredeemable

Dany's story makes me want to vomit

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