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[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

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Adaptation: the process in which a tv-show based on a series of books turns into something utterly unreckognizable, where change is made for the sake of change alone, where the opportunity to show nude women is never missed and where the characters involved end up a complete 180 from what they were like in the original text

Is that about right?

Ok, now with the hyperbole? First, the changes are made for time and also to add spice to some of the slower stories. And what character is a complete 180? Jaime? The same Jaime that pushed a small boy out of a window hoping that he'd die? Also.. nudity....? Did you read the books? Martin was way more graphic than the show seems to be.

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My only complaint about the series is how radically it has changed my perception of this forum and the members on it. I can't believe how many 'experts' are complaining about things that were explained right on the show. "Wahh, wahh, Catelyn has no reason to free Jaime without hearing of Bran and Rickon." Did you people even watch the episode?

Get the definition of adaptation tattooed on the back of your hands so you can read it while you type.

Yes, having Catelyn freeing Jaime because Karstark is going to kill him makes sense. It just strips her of any agency she ever had, turning an active decision she made on her own into a passive reaction to someone else's plan. I could have accepted it if it had been a one time thing, but the trend since season 2 has been to take every idea Cat ever had in the books and to give it to someone else (usually a male character). As such you have Robb advising her to go to Renly, Tyrion and LF convincing her to release Jaime and Brienne commandeering their escape from Renly's tent and Renly's camp. All of those things should have come from Cat. Instead she spends half her scenes crying "I should be in Winterfell with my babies !!".

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I can't think of one change that has significantly changed the course of the series. Please enlighten me if I missed it.

Here are some of the changes that I´ve had issues with, although we might disagree on their relative importance

Jaime killing his cousin, turning him from a man whos two really bad deeds could be justified into a sociopath, thus making redemption seem unlikely

Robb falling in love with Talisa and flaunting it in front of all of his bannermen, changing alot of things about the Red Wedding

Now it seems that Cat will release Jaime without getting the news of Bran and Rickon, changing alot of things about her decisions

Cersei complaining to Tyrion about what a crazy nutbag Joffrey really is, so why all the drama when they offed him at the Purple Wedding

I could list more but I´ve already done so in the threads about the earlier episodes

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I absolutely love the television series because it is great television. Folks who have not read the series are in for a treat if they decide to pick it up. They have no idea how different the adaptation is from the book's narrative. I have no problem with that. However, there are several adaptations that disappoint me that were unnecessarily left out or changed:

  1. Ser Roderick could have brought in Reek before Theon stole Winterfell, so it won't be necessary to introduce him in a hokey way;
  2. Bran and Rickon should be in the Crypts;
  3. The Reeds should be with Bran;
  4. Where is Varys and Tyrion's unique relationship in the KL arc;
  5. The Tower of Joy should have been introduced in Ned's vision last season;
  6. Jon should be with the Half-Hand trying to double back from pursuit after letting Ygritte go;
  7. It should have been clear that Jon killed Orell;
  8. Jon should have found the dragonglass and broken horn at the foot of the Fist of First Men; and
  9. Amory Lorch should have been fed to a bear by Vargo Hoat instead of getting killed by Jaqen H'ghar.

Now, I will admit that I love the Tywin/Arya arc and the Dany/Qarth arc. Good changes that make sense for TV. I also love or at least approve of the added scenes and using Littlefinger as vehicle to connect the story arcs.

All in all, this is a smashingly good show. I just don't see why such important aspects of the narrative have been omitted. It leaves them little room to connect all the dots once you get to ADWD and beyond.

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Ok, now with the hyperbole? First, the changes are made for time and also to add spice to some of the slower stories. And what character is a complete 180? Jaime? The same Jaime that pushed a small boy out of a window hoping that he'd die? Also.. nudity....? Did you read the books? Martin was way more graphic than the show seems to be.

I had to respond to the "adaptation-tatoo" poster with some hyperbole lol, don´t take it too serious

I´ve read the books, though I must have missed the lesbian sex scenes at LF´s place, the scene where Osha fucks Theon, the scene where Joffrey has the hookers beat eachother and many others. T&A that makes sense = good, T&A for the sake of more T&A = bad

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Cersei complaining to Tyrion about what a crazy nutbag Joffrey really is, so why all the drama when they offed him at the Purple Wedding

Cersei did also mention that the only people in the world she loved were her children and that mothers don't have a choice.

Edited by Mummer's wind

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Jaime killing his cousin doesn't make sense and it wasn't necessary. Adaptation or not, he didn't have to kill the boy, he could have just beat him bloody and then strangled the Stark.

The scenes in Qarth threw me for a loop. I'm still not sure if they even happened or not. I kept thinking Dany was dreaming or already in the House of Undying. Maybe there will be a twist ending to the season and we will learn Dany has been in the House of Undying for the past few episodes. It will explain why her people were killed, her paranoia and why Ser Jorah wasn't around... Either way, I didn't see the coupe coming. I was enjoying Dany's power struggle with the merchants.

I liked all of the history given in the episode. It's a bit heavy on exposition but there's really no other way to convey the information to viewers without a lot of speeches.

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Name me an adaptation that 100% follows the source material and I will name you a liar.

And I'll say this again - name a poster that has said they require a 100% adaption. Because different posters disagree about different points does not mean that anyone requires or expects a 100% verbatim TV show.

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Winterfell: The walnuts are there as a plot devise for the audience only. Dagmar's idea was to pull a bait and switch, which is actually what happens. The walnuts are there simply to fool the audience into thinking the boys are the one's killed. Bran, Rickon, Osha and Hodor will likely never return to Winterfell. You won't see the scene with master Luwen either. It's just not important to the TV show that he knows the boys lived, since he's about to die anyway. All that's left is likely Yara showing up to tell Theon he's screwed and then Ramsey sacking Winterfell (making it seem as though Theon is killed, I'm sure).

I'm pretty sure they'll show Maester Luwin's death. He's had a lot of screen-time during the past two episodes - they even added several scenes for him over the course of the two seasons - they won't pass up such a great opportunity for drama when he dies. They've shown every named characters death on screen so far, even when the characters aren't supposed to die/be maimed (Mago, Irri, Rakharo, Marillion etc.), it would make no sense for them not to show Luwin's as well.

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Did I misunderstand? Did it say only 2 more episodes left?

Is it possible that the season finale will be a double-episode lasting 2 hours?

This would mean there are two more 'broadcasts', yet three more 'episodes'...

Just a thought!

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And even if this season was 20 episodes, they still couldn't show 10 scenes with John doing little more than marching through the snow. I can't think of one change that has significantly changed the course of the series. Please enlighten me if I missed it.

well, they changed it to many scenes of jon marching through the snow. in the book, jon and halfhand were being chased by wildlings, coming up with different strategies to elude them. what the show gave us instead was jon wlaking through the snow with ygritte

i think most complaints are not about stuff being changed. its about stuff that doesnt work. and really a lot stuff thats new hasnt come together well. if you really want me to complain about a show ask me about the walking dead, and I've never read the source material there.

I know they can't follow it exactly. I don't even want them too. I was hoping for many new scenes of Robb in the West(though those have been a disappointment) but I do expect scenes that are well thought out and executed.

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Here are some of the changes that I´ve had issues with, although we might disagree on their relative importance

Jaime killing his cousin, turning him from a man whos two really bad deeds could be justified into a sociopath, thus making redemption seem unlikely

Robb falling in love with Talisa and flaunting it in front of all of his bannermen, changing alot of things about the Red Wedding

Now it seems that Cat will release Jaime without getting the news of Bran and Rickon, changing alot of things about her decisions

Cersei complaining to Tyrion about what a crazy nutbag Joffrey really is, so why all the drama when they offed him at the Purple Wedding

I could list more but I´ve already done so in the threads about the earlier episodes

Again, this is the same Jaime that tried to Kill a small boy "for love". Do you think sacrificing some distant relative is some how worse than that? I think this is a case where your mindset with Jaime is of him after his "redemption". Pre-missing his hand Jaime was not a good person, at all.

We never saw how Rob fell in love with Talisa/Jeyne in the books. And the red wedding will happen just the same. Robb will likely come back from the Krag married to Jeyne and the Freys will be outraged. Either that, or they'll add in more plot of him being wounded at the Krag, tended to by "Talisa", etc. Either way, the end result will be the red wedding.

Catelyn has 4 children that are currently being held captive. She has something in her possession that she feels will free two of the 4. That's honestly reason enough. Especially since her bartering tool may not last the night, and she knows that Sansa and Arya are as good as dead if Jaime dies. Plenty of reasoning there.

Cersei also tells Sansa that she will love her Children as she does her own. Knowing that Joffrey is crazy and not loving your son are two different things entirely. Of course she'd be upset when he dies.

Edited by Versiroth

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Robb's going to have a busy week next week - he's going to have to be wounded so Jeyne can take care of him, heal enough to have sex, and then get married. What a day.

I like the Quarth changes, but the set looks like Disneyworld.

Love Ygritte, Where is this going? My guess - the wildlings have also captured Qhorin. He sees Jon is captured also and starts screaming "turncloak!" Jon's like NO, WTF, but then he catches on. They're forced to fight, and Qhorin sort of hisses instructions to Jon as they're trying to kill each other. I guess it could work. I LOVED hearing "you know nothing" - this is the line I've been watiing for!

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You guys seemed to miss when Robb is with his troops and they say they have captured more Lannister Troops. Karstark is going to murder the Lannister prisoners. So Robb will still take off Karstark's head. I'm more wondering what that look between Roose and Talisa/Jeyne -- I think Roose is noticing Robb being dragged around with his other head. Which is now starting to spin the wheels about the R&W and maybe sending a Raven to Ramsay.

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I had to respond to the "adaptation-tatoo" poster with some hyperbole lol, don´t take it too serious

I´ve read the books, though I must have missed the lesbian sex scenes at LF´s place, the scene where Osha fucks Theon, the scene where Joffrey has the hookers beat eachother and many others. T&A that makes sense = good, T&A for the sake of more T&A = bad

Did you forget Jaime mixing semen with Cersei's period blood? Martin was plenty sexually graphic (and often completely outside the needs of the books). They have done it in different places, but they are quite true to him there.

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Is it possible that the season finale will be a double-episode lasting 2 hours?

This would mean there are two more 'broadcasts', yet three more 'episodes'...

Just a thought!

There's already a thread about this stating the preview was removed from the second broadcast. There are 3 more episodes already named and displayed in this forum. There are three more episode synopsis available on the internet. Highly doubt that it's anything else than an HBO flub.

In fact, knowing HBO there may even be a two week wait for one of those episodes, they normally skip holiday weekends (the 27th).

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