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[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion


Ran
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Sigh. This again. Jaime would've never lived to see the morning. Karstark was right there in camp, stirring-up trouble, as opposed to off with Robb like in the book. If anything, the way the show did it makes more sense, not less, than her letting him go in some desperate (and probably misguided) hope that it'll get her the girls back. She knows, for a fact, that if the Karstarks kill him, the girls are dead meat.

This so much. They get to the same exact place by slightly different routes.

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I get there, but there is a clear undercurrent (practically an undertow) of "shut up about the books because I don't care".

It wasn't always like that. It used to just ask for no spoilers.

Eh, it's hard to blame him. I'm a huge fan of the books, obviously, but he's a TV reviewer, and he's made the choice to judge the series specifically on its merits as a TV show. He always invites discussion in the comments on his reviews for all shows; and after posting a request for no spoilers at the end of his reviews, people crossed the line over and over again until he had to put a moratorium on any book talk at all.

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Episode was boring...I hate Catelyn Stark, she starts this whole war capturing Tyrion which gets her husband killed, and then betrays her son which assists in getting him killed. Anyone know why they don't just call Theon's Sister Asha? Doesn't really make a difference just odd. Really wished they would have at least shown Dany at the HOTU and accomplished something this episode besides pure set up.

There are any number of events which arguably started the war, or at least started the chain of events. My personal choice is Cersei's selfish and stupid refusal to bear at least one of Robert's biological children. She even tells Sansa that you can love a man's children without loving the man. Had she borne at least one actual Baratheron, it would have quelled any suspicion of twincest.

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It must be SO difficult to fit this book into 10 hours. Why can't people realize that and brush off the small things? Either way Jamie and Brienne are off on their adventure. Who cares about the tiny details of how it came about?

Haha yes, Jaime and Brienne were the high point tonight...

Don't mind changes with purpose that I think work well, and who knows, things I hate right now may end up working out in the end. Hell I'm a supporter of a big change from Season One that I thought was more true to character and yet didn't really make the story make more sense for a TV audience, that being Drogo raping Dany on their wedding night. Seemed to me that was more realistic and truer to what a Dothraki horselord would have done but then I would think most of the viewing audience would have a hard time buying the love Dany develops for him. Didn't think it made for "believable" TV but truer to character. I can brush off small things, my complaints are over things I see as important for character or plot development. I can get over weasel soup and Ros vs. Alayaya and the fact that for some reason all the sex between Tyrion and Shae has been absent from this season; bigger changes that don't seem to have an important purpose are another matter for me.

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Why is no one talking about how great a job Tom Wlaschiha is doing as Jaqen H'ghar? The scene when Arya says his name and they have that whole conversation is just brilliantly acted on both parts. They really seem to have chemistry, maybe it's just Maisie Williams because she was fantastic with Tywin too but I think the Jaqen portrayal is amazing. He has a touch of humor and seriousness much like the books.

Also, Oona Chaplin is totally worth the kingdom.

One more thing. I don't think Jaime thinks of the Cleganes with such respect. Yes, they're both gifted, brutal killers and fighters but I think Jaime would think himself much better than those two. I would think Jaime Lannister would know many other knights more skilled and famous than The Hound and The Mountain. Selmy possibly even though he is old and Jaime is cocky as hell. Oberyn Martell? He proved himself to be pretty good, beating the Mountain later in the books. There must be better knights than the dogs.

Edited by pinkie10
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Stannis will arrive within a day or two, so does that mean HBO is changing who wins hmmmm!!!! Tywin decided to go home. I know in the books Edmure "delayed" him so Tywin was forced to retreat and go south, but i'm not sure about this two day arrival thing.

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Huh!? You mean you care so much that you could care less, or are you one of those people who say the opposite of what they mean? Please clarify.

LOL at Stannis mode, but I'm right there with you. I usually just say "And how much less could you care?"

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Why is no one talking about how great a job Tom Wlaschiha is doing as Jaqen H'ghar? The scene when Arya says his name and they have that whole conversation is just brilliantly acted on both parts. They really seem to have chemistry, maybe it's just Maisie Williams because she was fantastic with Tywin too but I think the Jaqen portrayal is amazing. He has a touch of humor and seriousness much like the books.

Totally agree. Both fantastic portrayals. Really enjoy their scenes.

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i honestly hate all the Jon Snow/Qhorin/Ygritte changes, they weren't necessary at all imo

What is with this "necessary" shit people keep throwing around? How can any change be neccesary, as in, it would be impossible for the show to exist if the change wasn't made? Because if that's not what you mean, then necessary is the wrong word and you need to go find the right one.

As to whether the changes matter, they don't, practically to the point of that being an objective fact rather than a matter of opinion. Jon is still going to kill Qhorin to prove himself. Ygritte already spoke up on his behalf to the Lord of Bones. No meaningful change, except that Ygritte now has a better reason to speak up for him than she did in the book, which is a change for the BETTER.

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The show purists / praisers are right

Nothing is forbidden probably vampires and aliens will be very well received also

Why talysa and not jayne (Robb loves her in the book too) they spend almost a year married while his mother in law gives her birth control potions

Volantis noble famillies look more like dany than talysa but who cares this is just nitpicking

Last week D&d invented the "yellow" fork of the Trident

No vargo hoat/ no roose taking the harrenhal why bother roose is in the Robb "summer fun" Camp somewher between the Crag (around a day casual riding distance) and the "yellow fork"

Riverunn probably wasnt build yet and Edmure is just reading and fishing while the riverlands are destroyed by Starks and Lannisters

Favorite scene Ros getting abused (probably D&D wanted some slack from the purists/ complainers so they have beaten their pet character as she was destroyed by the purists forums)

The rest i will save for the NwR thread

And no i will not stop complaining about the show when it goes AWOL from the book logic

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The show purists / praisers are right Nothing is forbidden probably vampires and aliens will be very well received also Why talysa and not jayne (Robb loves her in the book too) they spend almost a year married while his mother in law gives her birth control potions Volantis noble famillies look more like dany than talysa but who cares this is just nitpicking Last week D&d invented the "yellow" fork of the Trident No vargo hoat/ no roose taking the harrenhal why bother roose is in the Robb "summer fun" Camp somewher between the Crag (around a day casual riding distance) and the "yellow fork" Riverunn probably wasnt build yet and Edmure is just reading and fishing while the riverlands are destroyed by Starks and Lannisters Favorite scene Ros getting abused (probably D&D wanted some slack from the purists/ complainers so they have beaten their pet character as she was destroyed by the purists forums) The rest i will save for the NwR thread And no i will not stop complaining about the show when it goes AWOL from the book logic

Best satirical post yet. Even better if you didn't realize it was satire when you posted it.

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I thought this was the most balanced and complete episode of the season.

Here is what I liked:

The Time Taken and the Time Spent: The best part of this episode was that it felt like every individual story-line was given the time and the space to grow and it did not feel like I was watching a “Meanwhile-at-the-Legion-of-Doom” highlights. The episode gave each part of the show the time it needed to feel real and fully formed. This was maybe the only episode all season that did not feel fragmented and disjointed. Heck, I even liked the Jon Snow parts.

The King in the North (-West): Look, for reasons not entirely clear to me, some viewers do not like Robb’s relationship with the Volantian woman. But watching Robb comfortably talk to another woman (unlike Jon who with Ygritte has all the comfort of being naked on a nail-bed) is refreshing. He seems to care about her and she seems to have a genuine affection for him (or is a double-agent). When Robb said he did not want to marry the Frey girl, not only do I believe him but I kind of (sort of) understand him. Tylesa is a complete person filled with empathy, kindness, bravery, intelligence and decency. And Robb is all those things as well. And if she turns out to be a double-agent FUCK that's hot... wait, what?

And before I forget- I liked that when they were having sex they both laughed. FOR ONCE on this show sex is seen as a positive and fun event. I mean, its going to kill Robb, but hey, still fun.

And when he unloaded on Cat I was right there with him. She fucked it up. And she had to be told. Robb told her. And fuck her; freeing the KS was weak.

The Siege of Storm’s End and Robert and Renly’s Brother: Stannis is, possibly, my second or third favorite character in the books (Handless and Noseless take 1 and 2 (usually)). And on the show he has stepped up, gotten laid, and nailed this part. Whenever he speaks you get this sense of not only his determination and raw (almost pathological) force of will, but you can sense his emotional void; how when he held Robert’s center he deserved not only praise but gratitude. Instead, he got sent to Dragonstone. And all the while he talked about the horses and cats and dogs and the hate the hate the hate. And also the unfairness.

One of the reasons I like Stannis (and one of the reasons I think the actor is hitting Stannis so well) is because I think we have all- at one time or another- known what its like to be truly treated unfairly. Stannis IS the rightful King and his realm is the Seven Kingdoms. Period. Whatever Robb or dead Renly or Tywin think matters not at all. Robert was King died without legal issue. Case closed. And yet he ain't the King. And so that same sense of fairness that drives Stannis also serves him to treat Davos well; it causes him to listen to wise counsel and it makes him toss aside those who are arrogant, proud and wrong. To me that’s why Stannis works. So, ... so the fury comes out... woe be onto they who gets in that way- Mace Tyrell, Renly, the castellan of Storm's End, Gold cloaks, Mance Ryder or some Karstarks. You've. Been. Warned.

Fuck... if I was Mace Tyrell I'd want ANYONE King other than Stannis. Stannis has to be the only guy in the 7 Kingdoms who kicks the shit out of you and then says "Want a rematch?"

And he never blinks. The actor who plays him I think has blinked like 8 times this season.

The Jaime and Brienne Show: Now that Tywin and Arya has been cancelled, I hope the Jaime and Brienne show is able to hold that time spot. So far so good; Jaime is arrogant and infuriating; Brienne proud and unbending. They make an amazing duo.

The Salvation of Jon Snow: Okay so it only took them three episodes but I think the show has been able to cobble together the important bits and save Jon Snow’s story-line. They are going to do the Halfhand fight etc. And it may, potentially, save time in the long run. If that’s the case than this worked out. IF not, well…. “You know nothing, Jon Snow” is going to be the worst drinking game ever.

The Spider and the Imp: I got nothing ‘cept that. Don’t need to say anything else.

Bran: A boy knows…

What I am on the Fence about:

The Least Shocking Reveal Ever: Who didn’t think it was going to be Roz? Okay, I know- we read it in the books and all but … if you made 50 people watch this show Episode 1 to Episode 18 and then RIGHT BEFORE she walks out ask them “Who is going to walk out in that room?” How many of the 50 say “Roz?” And how many of them roll their eyes when they say it? I’m going to say 32 say “Roz” 20 of them roll their eyes and two guys add the word “fucking’ to her name.

Now for me, I was fine with it, it just felt utterly unnatural the whole time. And when Roz walked out all I could think of was “Thank Christ I don’t have to listen to Shae! And then the next scene had Shae in it so I ran cold water in my bath tub in preparation of opening a vein, but, hey- she was fine.

Dany: It was a pointless scene. We could have had no Dany this week and tacked on that scene to the week when she burns down the House of the Undying and it would have been fine. But what was there was fine.

We Get It He’s A Moron: Whenever Theon talks to … anyone… I just want him to stop. And its not because he’s poorly written or poorly acted, but because Theon Greyjoy is a car wreck. And with that said, its pretty much IDENTICAL to him in the books so not complaining about that just … why does Theon have to be so … human?

What I did Not Like:

Fuck it! Was a great episode. No bad things to say really.

Just next week… I put odds of Stannis dying at 25% and climbing. Fuck… just like Book 5…

Stannis.

Is.

Coming.

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Probably my least favorite episode of the season, though most of it has to do with the things I enjoyed in the books being changed or occurring prematurely. Also, the episode just felt really disjointed, like it was moving back and forth between many storylines, with very little actually happening in any of them.

--Jon Snow's storyline has been a pretty massive disappointment. They've sort of rendred him into a bumbling idiot, and Qhorin now looks pretty bad as well. I almost laughed when Sam mentioned Qhorin as a great ranger, when in the scene before he's been caught by wildings, all because he let Jon Snow escape from him to execute Ygritte, and somehow couldn't find him in time. Great ranger my ass. He has none of the mystique or presence from the books; just seems to be the ranger in charge whose only purpose is now for Jon to kill.

--Robb Talisa. Just don't like these scenes at all, and I really think the time could have been spent better elsewhere. Robb now breaks his promise to the Freys because she told him some really long story about her brother drowning? Whatever.

--Arya Jaqen was disappointing as well. She decides she wants Tywin dead, Jaqen says he can't do it, so then she wants him dead? Then she wants to escape? I don't know, that all sounded really rushed, and I'm bummed there will be no weasel soup.

--Davos and Stannis. I actually liked this scene, as it gave some good backgrond info and characterization to both Stannis and Davos, but I think they dropped the ball with the ending. I really like the scene in A Storm of Swords where Stannis decides to name Davos his hand, when it appeared he might have him executed. Here, he just sort of mentions it offhand, and I'm not really sure why this couldn't wait. In the book, Stannis names him because Davos always tells him the truth of what he believes; here, it's like Stannis named him because of what he did twenty years ago during the rebellion.

--Jaime Brienne was fine I suppose, though they didn't really do much.

--I also think they revealed that Bran and Rickon were alive too early. This could have been held back at least another week, and I feel like they really hammered it home too much. Not only does Theon mention it to Dagmer, but Osha has to be seen outside the tombs and Maester Luwin has to visit them inside.

--Cersei Tyrion scene was good, though it does feel really jumbled with how they've been portraying Cersei. Last episode she and Tyrion were confiding their thoughts to one another closely, and now this episode she feels Tyrion is out to kill Joffrey, who she basically admitted last time out she doesn't even really care for him.

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There were some great moments in this episode. The best for me was Arya's little shrug in answer to Jaquen's "a girl has no honor." Perfect.

I'm not a purist when it comes to screen adaptations. It works for me when the feelings I already have for characters are amplified or deepened after watching the TV version of the story -- in tonight's case my love of Stannis's delivery and my overall irritation with Dany's brattiness.

One tiny thing I do wish they'd kept though - I liked that Ghost led Jon to the dragonglass hoard on the Fist. Not a big deal story-wise, but I like the ancient Northern-ness of it.

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