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[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion


Ran
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I am still upset but it is just a TV show. It has to be good TV to get me so upset right? LOL

The reality is they have developed characters like Dagmar, Osha and Roz but they didn't develop Jon and his relationship with Q. Halfhand.

I do understand that they are limited for budget and time but why would Jon listen to a guy he doesn't know that well?

The first season was different but they stayed faithful to the nature of the books, this season they have taken to "chances" that are deviating or appear to be deviating away from the nature of Martin's song.

I think tonight was so disappointing to me, I expected to see more than some bony pasting butts in a sex scene, I expected more but there are two episodes left and I am sure some stuff will be streamlined and other things left for next season.

The issue that I have is that the news of Bran and Rickon's death really set a chain of events off that was in my opinion as powerful as Lord Eddard's decapitation.

But, there is another season and 2 episodes left for us to see what D and D can do.

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I thought this was the most balanced and complete episode of the season. Here is what I liked: The Time Taken and the Time Spent: The best part of this episode was that it felt like every individual story-line was given the time and the space to grow and it did not feel like I was watching a “Meanwhile-at-the-Legion-of-Doom” highlights. The episode gave each part of the show the time it needed to feel real and fully formed. This was maybe the only episode all season that did not feel fragmented and disjointed. Heck, I even liked the Jon Snow parts. The King in the North (-West): Look, for reasons not entirely clear to me, some viewers do not like Robb’s relationship with the Volantian woman. But watching Robb comfortably talk to another woman (unlike Jon who with Ygritte has all the comfort of being naked on a nail-bed) is refreshing. He seems to care about her and she seems to have a genuine affection for him (or is a double-agent). When Robb said he did not want to marry the Frey girl, not only do I believe him but I kind of (sort of) understand him. Tylesa is a complete person filled with empathy, kindness, bravery, intelligence and decency. And Robb is all those things as well. And if she turns out to be a double-agent FUCK that's hot... wait, what? And before I forget- I liked that when they were having sex they both laughed. FOR ONCE on this show sex is seen as a positive and fun event. I mean, its going to kill Robb, but hey, still fun. And when he unloaded on Cat I was right there with him. She fucked it up. And she had to be told. Robb told her. And fuck her; freeing the KS was weak. The Siege of Storm’s End and Robert and Renly’s Brother: Stannis is, possibly, my second or third favorite character in the books (Handless and Noseless take 1 and 2 (usually)). And on the show he has stepped up, gotten laid, and nailed this part. Whenever he speaks you get this sense of not only his determination and raw (almost pathological) force of will, but you can sense his emotional void; how when he held Robert’s center he deserved not only praise but gratitude. Instead, he got sent to Dragonstone. And all the while he talked about the horses and cats and dogs and the hate the hate the hate. And also the unfairness. One of the reasons I like Stannis (and one of the reasons I think the actor is hitting Stannis so well) is because I think we have all- at one time or another- known what its like to be truly treated unfairly. Stannis IS the rightful King and his realm is the Seven Kingdoms. Period. Whatever Robb or dead Renly or Tywin think matters not at all. Robert was King died without legal issue. Case closed. And yet he ain't the King. And so that same sense of fairness that drives Stannis also serves him to treat Davos well; it causes him to listen to wise counsel and it makes him toss aside those who are arrogant, proud and wrong. To me that’s why Stannis works. So, ... so the fury comes out... woe be onto they who gets in that way- Mace Tyrell, Renly, the castellan of Storm's End, Gold cloaks, Mance Ryder or some Karstarks. You've. Been. Warned. Fuck... if I was Mace Tyrell I'd want ANYONE King other than Stannis. Stannis has to be the only guy in the 7 Kingdoms who kicks the shit out of you and then says "Want a rematch?" And he never blinks. The actor who plays him I think has blinked like 8 times this season. The Jaime and Brienne Show: Now that Tywin and Arya has been cancelled, I hope the Jaime and Brienne show is able to hold that time spot. So far so good; Jaime is arrogant and infuriating; Brienne proud and unbending. They make an amazing duo. The Salvation of Jon Snow: Okay so it only took them three episodes but I think the show has been able to cobble together the important bits and save Jon Snow’s story-line. They are going to do the Halfhand fight etc. And it may, potentially, save time in the long run. If that’s the case than this worked out. IF not, well…. “You know nothing, Jon Snow” is going to be the worst drinking game ever. The Spider and the Imp: I got nothing ‘cept that. Don’t need to say anything else. Bran: A boy knows… What I am on the Fence about: The Least Shocking Reveal Ever: Who didn’t think it was going to be Roz? Okay, I know- we read it in the books and all but … if you made 50 people watch this show Episode 1 to Episode 18 and then RIGHT BEFORE she walks out ask them “Who is going to walk out in that room?” How many of the 50 say “Roz?” And how many of them roll their eyes when they say it? I’m going to say 32 say “Roz” 20 of them roll their eyes and two guys add the word “fucking’ to her name. Now for me, I was fine with it, it just felt utterly unnatural the whole time. And when Roz walked out all I could think of was “Thank Christ I don’t have to listen to Shae! And then the next scene had Shae in it so I ran cold water in my bath tub in preparation of opening a vein, but, hey- she was fine. Dany: It was a pointless scene. We could have had no Dany this week and tacked on that scene to the week when she burns down the House of the Undying and it would have been fine. But what was there was fine. We Get It He’s A Moron: Whenever Theon talks to … anyone… I just want him to stop. And its not because he’s poorly written or poorly acted, but because Theon Greyjoy is a car wreck. And with that said, its pretty much IDENTICAL to him in the books so not complaining about that just … why does Theon have to be so … human? What I did Not Like: Fuck it! Was a great episode. No bad things to say really. Just next week… I put odds of Stannis dying at 25% and climbing. Fuck… just like Book 5… Stannis. Is. Coming.

Brilliant, mate. FUCKING LOVE STANNIS, TOO :cheers:

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Good Lord you can not care about the changes or care about them and either point is valid. Discuss the points, not the people. If it irritates you to read "purist" comments don't read em. Or find/create a thread that doesn't allow people to disagree with anything HBO does.

I would prefer one that forbade them to complain about every... tiny... inconsequential... deviation... every... d@mn... week.

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I almost laughed when Sam mentioned Qhorin as a great ranger, when in the scene before he's been caught by wildings, all because he let Jon Snow escape from him to execute Ygritte, and somehow couldn't find him in time. Great ranger my ass. He has none of the mystique or presence from the books; just seems to be the ranger in charge whose only purpose is now for Jon to kill. --Robb Talisa. Just don't like these scenes at all, and I really think the time could have been spent better elsewhere. Robb now breaks his promise to the Freys because she told him some really long story about her brother drowning? Whatever.

Agreed.

I really like the scene in A Storm of Swords where Stannis decides to name Davos his hand, when it appeared he might have him executed. Here, he just sort of mentions it offhand, and I'm not really sure why this couldn't wait.--I also think they revealed that Bran and Rickon were alive too early. This could have been held back at least another week, and I feel like they really hammered it home too much. Not only does Theon mention it to Dagmer, but Osha has to be seen outside the tombs and Maester Luwin has to visit them inside. --Cersei Tyrion scene was good, though it does feel really jumbled with how they've been portraying Cersei. Last episode she and Tyrion were confiding their thoughts to one another closely, and now this episode she feels Tyrion is out to kill Joffrey, who she basically admitted last time out she doesn't even really care for him.

Also agree.

There were some great moments in this episode. The best for me was Arya's little shrug in answer to Jaquen's "a girl has no honor." Perfect.

That was awesome.

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I would prefer one that forbade them to complain about every... tiny... inconsequential... deviation... every... d@mn... week.

Well you're free to start one. This thread is all-inclusive and it's a little unrealistic to expect there won't be "purists"/"nitpickers" etc. on it.

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Can anyone remind me from the books of what the justification was for Renly getting Storm's End in the first place?

Because at the time that Robert “usurped” the Targaryen dynasty, the crown prince to the Iron Throne was “the Prince of Dragonstone”, just as the crown prince of the UK is “the Prince of Wales” and the crown prince of Spain is “the Prince of Asturias”. Stannis was Robert’s heir when Robert took the Iron Throne, so he thought it right to give his heir the heir’s seat. It was meant as an honour not a slight.

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Can we stop bitching about Robb and Talisa's scenes (I thoroughly enjoyed them tonight and completely understand the need to show Robb falling in love - esp. since they aged him up) and get to the matter at hand? The hottest chick on the show got NEKKID this week. Seriously. Oona is gorgeous. I may be girl-crushing. :drool:

I hate to burst your bubble, but I'm 90% sure that was a body double.

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Can anyone remind me from the books of what the justification was for Renly getting Storm's End in the first place? He was just a youngin' and Stannis had already put down the Greyjoy Rebellion, right?

It was pre-Greyjoy Rebellion, post-Robert's Rebellion, I think. Stannis built a fleet and took Dragonstone, hence Robert bestowed it on him, while giving their ancestral seat (the much richer, more powerful Storm's End to Renly).

Robert pretty much didn't like Stannis, so it may've been a straight-up insult, or it could be that Robert was too oblivious to even see what an insult it really was.

EDIT: CrypticWeirwood beat me to the answer and added some very cogent comments as well, though I still see it as short-sighted on Robert's part. Did he intend Stannis should hand it over to the new heir once Robert begat a child and become a lord in name only? If not, why even bother assigning the seat to his heir-apparent, in the first place.

Edited by J.S. Crews
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I liked the episodes but I despised some of the changes.

The sanitizing of Arya. Granted, she's ordered deaths so you can't say the character to innocent. But they didn't have her kill anyone during the "battle" at House Darry and they don't even have her kill the guard to escape. They delete one of the best parts in the book, the Weasel Soup storyline and Arya's Harrenhal arc concludes with a giant disappointment. That's what I call taking a great part of the book and intentionally making his shitty.

Though I did laugh at the "A man has patrol duty" line. Just start every sentence with "A man has..." and you have comedy gold.

If Robb does marry Jeyne...TALISA for love then he deserves to have that sword plunged into his heart by Roose Bolton. I was about to say that made the character look worse on the show but really, I think they managed to sanitize his decision too. They've inexplicably written off the Riverlands this season so what is Robb really breaking off except a marriage pact with an ally we haven't seen since episode 8 of last season? It's cleared he's not going to marry Talisa to protect her virtue so he's going the selfish route.

Robb/Talisa's scene was good together and I liked her Volantis monologue. I liked the name-dropping from Book 5, which included Tyrion mentioning that Tywin basically made him Casterly Rock's chief plumber.

Joffrey is 17 on the show? First time we've heard that...

Didn't mind Robb locking up Catelyn. At this point, he didn't have his "oops" moment with Jeyne/Talisa, so it makes sense for him to be harsher.

The Theon/Yara scene was straight from the books and was very good. Probably Gemma Whalen's best performance to date.

Tyrion/Cersei was also adapted well from the books and I enjoyed seeing Evil Cersei pop up here. The callback to Ros (the necklace she showed Theon last year) was actually clever by the writers. Good acting here by both Dinklage and Headley. And hey, Pod actually was seen!

Enjoyed the Tyrion/Varys/Bronn show. Bronn can actually read on the show but it was used as a clever bit with him reading the name of the Maester.

The Stannis/Davos scene was excellent as we finally get some information about the Siege at Storm's End. I liked what Stannis said about dogs. He likes them because they're loyal but he ate them too. Only bit I don't like is that Stannis seems to want to be on the throne because he wants it as opposed to wanting the throne because he's supposed to get it. There's a difference, you know?

I liked Jorah/Dany too. I hope they manage to pull off the House of the Undying.

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There is no fucking way that Ramsey Snow was just chillin' on a dock on the Iron Islands. Do people think that Roose just magically knew that they'd be able to convince Theon to take Winterfell and set that plan in motion? Hate this Dagmar = Ramsey business.

Up until tonight, I really didn't pay attention to anyone theorizing that Dagmer was Ramsay. At all. But, it just seems like they're really endeavoring to prop the character of Dagmer up. He's almost in every scene with Theon. Granted, it's to give Theon someone to talk to, but, that aside. Maybe Roose had known Theon couldn't be trusted, and, as a backup plan, he decided to plant Ramsay on Pyke for Theon's homecoming?

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The sanitizing of Arya. Granted, she's ordered deaths so you can't say the character to innocent. But they didn't have her kill anyone during the "battle" at House Darry and they don't even have her kill the guard to escape. They delete one of the best parts in the book, the Weasel Soup storyline and Arya's Harrenhal arc concludes with a giant disappointment. That's what I call taking a great part of the book and intentionally making his shitty.

Did she escape already? I wasn't clear on that, if they had only just gotten past one of the gates. If that's really the end of her stay in Harrenhal, that's really lame. Having her slit the guard's throat and not care at all is the best ending for her arc for the season. Plus, she has to meet up with Jaqen again; him knowing her real name and giving her the coin is very important.

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Did she escape already? I wasn't clear on that, if they had only just gotten past one of the gates. If that's really the end of her stay in Harrenhal, that's really lame. Having her slit the guard's throat and not care at all is the best ending for her arc for the season. Plus, she has to meet up with Jaqen again; him knowing her real name and giving her the coin is very important.

Yeah, it didn't occur to me until several posters pointed that out...technically the escape isn't necessarily over, so there is still hope. Totally agree with you.

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Can anyone remind me from the books of what the justification was for Renly getting Storm's End in the first place? He was just a youngin' and Stannis had already put down the Greyjoy Rebellion, right? Also, was it Mayce Tyrell who was holing Stannis up under siege? May The Seven forgive me as I have only read the books twice.

Well the most obvious and simple answer is that Robert liked Renly more than Stannis. What happened if I recall is that when Stannis was lifted from the siege (it was indeed Mace) he went off to capture Dragonstone which is where he was when the war ended so Robert gave it to him.

And the Greyjoy Rebellion had not happened yet.

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Yeah, it didn't occur to me until several posters pointed that out...technically the escape isn't necessarily over, so there is still hope. Totally agree with you.

I can't see how that wasn't meant to be the escape. We'll see them again in ep. 10, but they're gone from Harrenhal. That joint is going to go monkey shit crazy when the dead guards are found; Arya and co. can't just be chillin' in the outer-bailey of the castle -- they'd be found in minutes.

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Why is no one talking about how great a job Tom Wlaschiha is doing as Jaqen H'ghar? The scene when Arya says his name and they have that whole conversation is just brilliantly acted on both parts. They really seem to have chemistry, maybe it's just Maisie Williams because she was fantastic with Tywin too but I think the Jaqen portrayal is amazing. He has a touch of humor and seriousness much like the books. Also, Oona Chaplin is totally worth the kingdom. One more thing. I don't think Jaime thinks of the Cleganes with such respect. Yes, they're both gifted, brutal killers and fighters but I think Jaime would think himself much better than those two. I would think Jaime Lannister would know many other knights more skilled and famous than The Hound and The Mountain. Selmy possibly even though he is old and Jaime is cocky as hell. Oberyn Martell? He proved himself to be pretty good, beating the Mountain later in the books. There must be better knights than the dogs.
Yes. All of this.

I think Maisie could probably have chemistry with a chair. She's so brilliant!!

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