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[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion


Ran
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Most important part of the episode for me: Dragonglass ! Great moment ! Otherwise, it was a pure episode of transition.

Grenn and Sam finding the dragonglass, instead of Jon, was, indeed, a smart move.

(sad, we cannot say the same for all of them in season 2)

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I don't see what you mean at all - I've already established she doesn't look anything like her, Asha is never described as exceedingly pretty, and her character is wholly different as well: when Asha says something mean, it's meant to be mean, Jeyne is simply talking back to Robb to get in his pants. Whereas Asha is more the 'direct attack' type, if you get my drift. Just think back on her memories of the sailor who only knew ten words, one of them being 'fuck'.

Well, I've never said that Talisa has something to do with Asha. They're completely different, we agree on this.

But just try to imagine Oona Chaplin (and not the character Talisa she's playing right now) as Asha. And tell me if you don't find her more convincing that Jemma Whelan.

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I guess we'll never know. For one she'd look horribly out of place and probably too 'soft' for the role, on the other hand I'm very happy with Jemma Whelan's (you saved me the bother of looking up her name, yay) performance. She's every bit as smug and confident as I imagined her in the books, and her smile, which is one of Asha's most important features, is exactly the same. You can just see the Asha-ness radiating off her when you see her on-screen IMO, Jemma and Alfie truly shine in their dialogues. I think it's a good thing they went with an actress that is perhaps less 'pretty' than the Asha from the books to make clear that's not why men follow her. Oona would've just made her 'typical warrior princess No. xxx' I believe.

Edited by StannisandDaeny
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Erm, wow. I think every scene in that episode was perfect. I especially loved Tyrion's "one game at a time, my friend" line. Here are my somewhat non coherent ramblings.

-I was a little apprehensive about the Jon/Ygritte digression last week, because one of Jon's best chapters in the series is the hopeless flight away from the wildling army, trying to get back to the fist. But as long as we get the whole "you must not balk" Jon/Halfhand thing, I'm fine with the change. Bloody love Rose Leslie as Ygritte, and Rattleshirt's armour is awesome.

ETA- Also, Sam getting all nerdy over Dragonglass was awesome. It was nice to get a reminder about Dolorous Edd, Grenn & Sam being on the fist. I still have my fingers crossed that this season will end with the three hornblows...

-Alfie Allen is killing it as Theon! I loved the Yara/Theon exchange at the beginning of the episode. For me, Yara is coming across pretty much exactly how Asha did in the books, but then, I don't have some intense obsessive fanboy crush on Asha. I still firmly think that Roose's bastard is already in Winterfell, it's Dagmer! But yeah, at this stage that's just a guess, it's a theory with holes in, blah blah blah. But I'd be surprised if Dagmer wasn't at least one of the Bastard's boys. Also, glad that the Brickon party are actually in the crypts.

-I loved the Harrenhal scenes. I don't really mind that we didn't see Jaqen's face change, because I still can't see how that wouldn't look cheesy on tv (i'm sure they'll do it well when they get round to it, but it's not really relevant at this stage). Also, if he IS the alchemist, and shows up in season 4, it'll be much better if it's Tom Wlaschiha who shows up because a) he's gorgeous and b)the audience probably won't make the connection that we saw that randomer in season 2. Also, so psyched for the Brotherhood. Will Arya get captured in SO2E10? I think so...

-Jaime and Brienne. JAIME AND BRIENNE. ajkajshidkjsdfndks. Just hit the nail on the head. NCW is just made for that role, and Christie just is Brienne. That is all.

-I've said it before and I'll say it again, I really like what they've done with Talissa/Jeyne! Making her a Volantene or whatnot might be a step too far BUT AT LEAST SHE'S INTERESTING! In the books, it worked fine when Robb reappeared with some pretty but meek wife, because it was a real WTF moment. I completely understand that Martin would never have written Robb's wife as a spunky war nurse, but as we're watching their relationship with the show, thank fuck they developed her a bit more.

-Stannis and Davos scene was great. Stannis was hilarious. Davos was just the exact same Davos we see in the books which is fucking awesome. Win.

-HA, knew Ros would = Alayaya. Knew it. And Dinklage was once again on fire this episode, Tyrion's scene with Bronn was awesome, he and Colneth Hill were amazing together as usual, and it's nice to see Tyrion's emotional side for once. He plays the game so very well that we can forget how human he really is.

-Dany was a little short changed this week but we'll get the HoU soon and that will end her arc with another bang this season. Also, Emilia Clark and Iain Glen work really well together.

So yeah. Loved it.

Edited by HyacinthGirl
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Can we stop bitching about Robb and Talisa's scenes (I thoroughly enjoyed them tonight and completely understand the need to show Robb falling in love - esp. since they aged him up) and get to the matter at hand? The hottest chick on the show got NEKKID this week. Seriously. Oona is gorgeous. I may be girl-crushing. :drool:

I disagree. I'm on Team Natalie Dormer.

I'm not a purist, but Cat freeing Jamie before she finds out about Bran and Rickon bugs the hell out of me. Honestly I'm just trying to pretend it didn't happen.

If they waited until after she heard the boys were dead, Karstark's argument would have been hugely deflated because Cat would have the upper hand in the morality debate.

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If they waited until after she heard the boys were dead, Karstark's argument would have been hugely deflated because Cat would have the upper hand in the morality debate.

Why is Cat having the upper hand in the morality debate a problem for the show? I'm still not sure why they changed it; makes more sense for Catelyn to free Jaime and Robb to sleep with Jeyne (Talisa) after they found out Bran and Rickon died. The timeline matched up too, if they just waited an extra episode. It's not like they needed to move up Jaime's escape.

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They didn't even really have to wait an extra episode, just make some minor changes to the sequencing of scenes. They could easily have had Robb/Catelyn find out about Bran/Rickon at the beginning of this episode, then have that be the determining factor that convinced Catelyn to really let Jaime escape instead of just considering it, as well as the reason he slept with Jeyne/Talisa.

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If they waited until after she heard the boys were dead, Karstark's argument would have been hugely deflated because Cat would have the upper hand in the morality debate.

I think that's the whole point of people being unhappy with it! If they created the whole 'Jaime was going to die anyway due to the trouble Karstark and his men were making' why ignore it like that now... I imagined Robb would be quite angry at Karstark, but no. What the show does do though, is show how Catelyn Is Always Right and Robb is acting like a fool: he's even more irresponsible in the show because he makes the first move(s) to get Jeyne rather than the other way around, even when not emotionally shattered. And that right after he berated his own mother, no less. This might actually give Catelyn some sympathy because it's clear Robb is being hypocritical here. Losing the Freys is more crucial than losing Jaime.

Stannis was hilarious.

I knew, one day, one day I would finally see this sentence on this forum :D He was hilarious when speaking of his almost dead wife who was so scared she couldn't speak, though? That's cold, man, real cold x')

Edited by StannisandDaeny
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OK... they could have handled Dany's bit in 5 to 10 minutes. House of Undying... grab those babies... burn the place down. Then we could have her meet up with her new friends at the docks in episode 10.

Instead we had the goofy scene with Robb.

I am glad that the boys are in the crypt. That helps. So long as when they come out, the Reeds are waiting for them.

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I feel almost redeemed with this train wreck of an episode. Every major issue I've had with this season's writing was pretty much proven correct. 1. The miscast and terrible writing of Shae. Who bought for a second that Tyrion had fallen head over heels for her? There hasn't been a single scene this season that would suggest that his feelings are anything more than sexual, and now he is near tears? Uggh... 2. Talisa - Stupid unnecessary rewrite of a minor character which required a long lenghty and boring backstory this week, that adds really nothing to the Robb/Jeyne Westerling union. I wasn't against modifying the original story given the aging up of Robb's character, but this was as awful as expected. It isn't the actors, both are more than competent to deliver the goods, but I wasn't feeling anything with these two. Even the clumsy attempt of humour during the stripping down scene, as least I think was an attempt, came off as terrible. 3. Arya and Tywin - Yes - They have chemistry in spades, but other than Cersei and Tyrion, what two characters had more screen time together this season? And what was the point in the end? Nothing. Yes - We got some lessons in great acting from Charles Dance and Maise, but to have no real significant point for the characters suggests what a poorly thought out idea. Why not at least play up the drama and have Tywin get a letter from Tyrion indicating they have lost Arya and Tywin suddenly clueing in on who this high born girl is? At least it would add some drama to the events at Harrenhal. Or as I like to call it "Arya's Haunted Castle Vacation" 4. Qarth. Despite all the rewrites and changes, it remains the weak storyline that it was in Clash of Kings. It feels like its taking her a month to get from the kidnapping of the dragons to actually visiting the House of the Undying. That said, I did like Stannis and Davros, and Tyrion with everyone (excluding Shae).

1. This was the reveal that Tyrion WAS head over heels! Even Shae seemed surprised. Not everything in a TV show can have an elaborate build up. A lot of people simply expect too much. It's obvious that Tyrion was trying to hide/protect Shae and in this episode, we find out that he's in love with her.

2. So, you'd have rather Robb go off to the Crag and then come back married to some random girl? They couldn't have the duaghter of the enemy roaming around in Robbs camp. Even if it would have been that Jeyne was there to spy as people guessed, Robb would have been forced to execute her once he found out for providing intel to his enemies. This way, you get to see more with Robb, you get to see why he broke his oath and you get to see their love story. This will make future events hit even harder. The fact that Robb marries Jeyne has no consequence in the show/books at all. Talisa gives the audiance something to see in the show from Robb. The book barely had him in it at all.

3. Arya and Tywin gave screen time and insight to two important characters. Regardless of people thinking Arya some how "too innocent" in the show due to not killing a guard herself, She ordered the death of two men and was also responsible for the death of those guards. That alone shows she's capable to taking life. It shows the path she'd going down. I'm guessing they will use the "killing" part as a character arc once she gets to Braavos. They'll likely make her struggle with it. It's a time limited TV show. Would you honestly have rather them give screen time to a bunch of random characters like in the book? And on top of that, a lot of what you get in the book is inner monologue. Another writing device that doesn't work on screen.

4. I don't disagree that Dany's story is the weakest this season, but I appreciate that they tried. Martin really didn't do much with her in this book other than in the HoTU, so the writers on the show gave it more build up. All they did was try to spice up what they were given. Luckily, her story gets better going forward.

Taken for what it is, this is an awesome show. The best on TV right now, IMO. It's honestly sad that people that have read the books (well, a lot) can't just watch it for what it is. This is NOT the book series. It's an adaptation. Minor things will change a lot and very important things will change some too from time to time.. It happens. Stop watching it with a magnifying glass and a copy of the book in hand and you'll enjoy it much, much more. Otherwise, you might as well stop watching altogether and just re-read the books. I promise, nothing will have changed in those at all.

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So Stannis will attack in tow days and Tywin's army is still at Harrenhall and he wants to attack Robb's forces? How would Stannis be defeated at Blackwater? I really hope they won't have Tyrion defeats him only with the meagre forces he has in KL, this would be ridiculous, though given that they are doing their best to whitewahs Tyrion and turn him into a hero with no flaws, it wouldn't surprise me. No word on LF's negotiation with the Tyrells, which sucks, I was hoping we'd see how he arranged the alliance, they showed him in so many pointless scenes this season yet apparently skipped the really important ones.

Anyway, pretty good episode overall. Bu I am disappointed they didn't show how more of the interaction between Cat and Jaime - the vows, how Jaime was released and got out of the camp, etc. The scene between Robb and Cat should've been longer too, so much potential for drama there was largely wasted.

I really don't like Arya didn't have to kill anyone to get out of Harrenhal. This is a crucial part of her character deveopment, showing how ruthless and desensitized she has become because of all the violence she's witnessed at such an young age, and also showing how capable she is to deal with problems.

Stannis hates cats and likes dogs, figures, no wonder he's such a killjoy.

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He doesn't like cats that much. Hate is such a strong word that gets tossed around too easily. I share your worry about Tywin leaving Harrenhal too late... I just can't see how he's still going to make it to King's Landing. The most likely outcome is that the Tyrells will 'save the day' on their own, not something I'm looking forward to. As much as I applaud them going through such lengths in order to not have to skip this battle I fear it'll become the typical tv kind-of battle where the 'larger force' gets beaten through tactics and heroism rather than a stupid trick and overwhelming reinforcements.

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all in all it was a good episode.

love davos/stannis

we now have cool obsidian stuff

need some more jon snow and qhorin (really disapointed with qhorin's hair... a long braid it's like +100 badassery.)

about tywin, he probably owns a car or maybe can do magic like LF and appear out of nowere

Edited by AsoiafFTW!
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I thought this was a great episode. My feeling was it put everything back more or less on track - Qhorin/Jon setup for the Jon/turncloak storyline; Bran/Rickon/Osha in the crypts; Theon/RAMSAY(!!); Jaime/Brienne. I didn't even mind Ros, but I'm trying to figure out why Cersei thinks she's Tyrion's girl. The only little thing bothering me now is Talisa, but even then I can see why they did it. They needed somebody for Robb to interact with as an equal, to be seen to be relaxed with and able to talk to. This gives Robb a way to be a more well rounded character and sets up the viewers to feel worse about the RW; she needs to be Volantene because if she were Westerosi there could be some kind of favoritism there. I just wish there were more Grey Wind. He really should be up Robb's nose more or less.

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Up until tonight, I really didn't pay attention to anyone theorizing that Dagmer was Ramsay. At all. But, it just seems like they're really endeavoring to prop the character of Dagmer up. He's almost in every scene with Theon. Granted, it's to give Theon someone to talk to, but, that aside. Maybe Roose had known Theon couldn't be trusted, and, as a backup plan, he decided to plant Ramsay on Pyke for Theon's homecoming?

Not a fan of Dagmer = Ramsay, but what if Ramsay sent Reek (Dagmer) to follow Robb and Theon south knowing the North would be ripe for the picking and then onto Pyke to convince Theon. Now all Reek(Dagmer) has to do is open the gates for Ramsay.

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Oh, and I was quite annoyed that Robb kept saying that the deal with the Freys was only "for a bridge" and ignored the 4000 soldiers he got out of it, every single one of which he desperately needs now. After they made a point at the start of the episode to show how Robb considers himself to be a really responsible lord caring for his subjects, ignoring this is quite hypocritical. Not marrying the Frey girl would not be just Robb breaking his word, it would mean losing a large part of his army at a time he really could not afford it and Robb knows that.

Robb and Talisa had the potential to be a good plotline, both of the actors are very good, they have decent chemistry together, and Oona Chaplin being gorgeous helps matters a lot, but the writing is just so bad their scenes remain mediocre at the best of times. Was anyone surprised even a little bit by the story of why Talisa became a medic? It's basically the same story we've all seen and read dozens of times. Every dialogue between those two is so predictable and follows the cliches so closely I can guess the next line basically word for word without even trying much.

Some positives - the Theon/Asha scene at the start was really good. Lena Headey's acting has improved by leaps and bounds since last season, her Cersei looks a lot more convincing to me now. Good to see Varys again.

Edited by David Selig
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Hm, I never realized the Volantenes had such a Rhoynish streak. Weren’t they the “first child of Old Valyria” or some such? Shouldn’t they be blond Andals? Not all people across the narrow sea have an olive complexion.

Or perhaps she isn’t really from there after all? Hm.

Please pardon me for asking such non-abusive questions in a thread dedicated to such, and coming to you unaccompanied by sack-cloth and ashes or the savage tearing out of my hair and eyes. We now therefore return you to your regularly scheduled hatefest about your personal suffering here at the end of the world and the worst of times.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood
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. It's honestly sad that people that have read the books (well, a lot) can't just watch it for what it is. This is NOT the book series. It's an adaptation. Minor things will change a lot and very important things will change some too from time to time.. It happens. Stop watching it with a magnifying glass and a copy of the book in hand and you'll enjoy it much, much more. Otherwise, you might as well stop watching altogether and just re-read the books. I promise, nothing will have changed in those at all.

How many folks had this complaint last season? Not as many as this season I gather . ..

They have changed the nature. I don't care about Talisa or Jeyne, I don't care about Ygritte have better teeth than I have in the 21st century, I don't care about Shae, I don't care about Bronn being head of the Gold Cloaks, or Melisandre being skinny and not curvylicious,

The reality is that when you have something so essential as the development of a relationship between Jon and the Halfhand, and something as essential as the black rage and utter despair of Robb and Cat after she hears that Bran and Rickon are slaughtered, you start to lose the nature of the story, the nature of the drama.

Halfhand's death will seem pointless as Jon is already questioning his vows to the watch thanks to some booty shaking by Ygritte (who looks flawless for a wilding woman), and it seems like Cat was just a selfish weasel. Not a mother who had nothing left, a dead husband, 2 dead children, and was all in for her girls . .. it harms the nature of the story.

I will admit and will take chastening for my whining earlier this month, you are correct, I need to read ACOK and shut up. But not this time, this was WRONG, this was GARBAGE, this had me furious because it makes the Starks look like selfish jerks.

Right now the Lannisters look more noble and trustworthy than the Starks . . .

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