[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion

[CrypticWeirwood]

I love the chiaroscuro use of natural lighting, but people without super high-quality/contrast TV sets who view this in a completely dark room are going to have a really tough time with it. And they won’t understand why they can’t see anything.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

I'm thinking that Talisa is going to turn out to be the daughter of Gerion Lannister, Tywin's youngest brother who was last seen in Volantis before he sailed off into Smoking Sea looking for Brightroar amid the ruins of Valyria. As to whether or not she'll turn out to be working or spying for Twywin... no idea.

Intriguing...

I always felt the Ironborn were morons here. Yeah, your strength lies in the sea. You still went to war against the North and you aren't going to conquer it or be ready when Robb goes North by harrying a few villages and staying at sea. Either don't go to war or do it properly. Theon's chances weren't fantastic, but at least he committed to the hopeless war they started. Balon and Asha had learned absolutely nothing from Theon's brothers deaths and would've steered towards the same old end if not for Euron. But here Yara when they were alone went for different angle. A Ironbron dies at sea. She wants her brother to be an ironborn win or lose. Theon doesn't get this, he doesn't see how being Prince of Winterfell and Ironborn are two different things. Which is what his character arc is all about.

Brilliant.

I like Jorah's being all "off course i remember you stepping out of flames unburnt. You were supernaked. I think about that moment every second of every day."

:lmao:

Not a bad episode. I could have cheerfully done without seeing more Robb/Talisa scenes; but at least Roz didn't talk too much while standing in for Alayaya from the books. Cersei was in better form in this episode - perhaps she just had to have somebody whipped to restore the confidence that was lagging in the last episode? It's not easy being queen... Finally, a moment or two when I liked Asha-Yara. It started when she had her feet up on the Winterfell table; a pose that seemed very Asha-ish. Nice scene between her and Theon. Poor Theon is still trying to be both Stark - wanting to compensate the miller for murdering his foster-sons - and Ironborn by claiming credit for killing Bran and Rickon. Alfie Allen is extremely believable as Theon. Tyrion is very much in love with Shae; and it seems fairly obvious to the viewer that she thinks he's cute, or gullible, but she certainly is nowhere near reciprocating his deep feelings for her.

Good points all....totally with you on Cersei...amusingly put...

Re: Shae, I always read her as a total golddigger...ironically the very thing Tyrion thought Tysha was...thought it was great writing for GRRM to juxtapose those two in that way and mess with Tyrion's head and heart.

The Jamie/Brienne Road Trip sets off in fine style! More of these two, less of Talisa and Robb, and I'd be a happy watcher! The Dany/Jorah scene had a lovely view of the Mighty Cheekbones and Azure Eyes of Iain Glen, but not much else.

Here, here!!

I'm sorry but that's one of the main problems I have with this episode, because honestly it makes Tywin look like a fool. All those past episodes I though he knew who she was and just kept her around that way for his own specific reasons that were supposed to revealed later, and I was thrilled to see where this was going. Yet now? Tywin realizes she's a highborn northern girl, yet make no move whatsoever to find out who she is? How many northern girls are running around in a war, I ask you? How come she was able to be captured when the Lannisters haven't even breached northern territory? How come that nobody told Tywin that Amory Lorch chased Arya five minutes before he got murdered? The show also lets Tywin assume he was the target of the murder where the way the killing happened clearly suggests he isn't (Lorch drops dead into his room with the dart already in his neck) Tywin just appears to be big idiot instead of smart strategist. Way to ruin a role, imo.

:agree:

Osha being seen in broad daylight, and Luwin talking to her? Yet more watering down of the great writing in the books to provide TV-esque plottery for the general public. I should have put money on Ros being the Whore That Fulfils All Plot Points That Require A Whore.

Yeah, that Osha thing was a wtf moment for me, too.

Knew that Ros thing was coming...love the way you put it, though.

I think you are missing the criticism. It isn't that change is bad. Its the quality of the changes that's the problem. This is a we will have to be an agree to disagree arguement. And we all realize its an adaption which will necessitate changes. In fact, when they do it well, I think they deserve tonnes of credit (i.e. Theon's execution of Roderick). When its done poorly or not thought through, they can be called out. Tywin and Arya is annoying, because there is no payoff. Its a great concept, with a some great moments, but its pointless because of the lack of payoff. Shae fails, because the writing never established the importance of the relationship to Tyrion before the scene with Cersei. Or a single scene that redeems Shae as a character. They attempted last week with her coming to the defence of Sansa, but that felt trite to me. Talisa and Robb is boring. I know good dramatic and comedic writing when I see it and this season has unfortunately lots of bad writing and plotting.

:cheers:

[baxter]

"

The actress playing Dany said fans wouldn’t be disappointed by her “big scene” this season. Sounds like we may get more than we bargained for in the final episode."

I've been thinking all along that the reason the Qarth scenes have been so, shall we say, cheap and without much substance is because they baked in all their budget for the final HofU scenes, which were very detailed in the books. Plus you know they have to be budgeting for that dragon CGI. Same goes for the battle at KL.

Honestly, my only beef has been that they haven't had Tyrion working on the chain subtly. If they just drop it in all of a sudden like an ah ha moment, its going to blow.

[CrypticWeirwood]

If you mention rims of frost I am going to plotz

¿Cómo? You no speaka me linguage, hombre!

[Rickon is FIERCE]

It's clear that she bothers him and he sees what's coming and perhaps might already be thinking ahead like the crafty bastard he is. Foreshadowing at its best. Nicely done. Because of the necklace he gave her in episode 1. Trust me, you've seen nothing. You should have seen the Sword Of Truth forum when the show aired - it was enormous. I think people on this board are very civilized in voicing the gripes they have with the show and should have the right to voice these without being shot down as 'bloody purists'.

:cheers:

[Rickon is FIERCE]

It's official, Ros is the Kilroy of Westeros. I'm debating whether or not I should start a thread about how instrumental Ros was to every mystery in the story. I resented the character, I struggled against her...but like a stockholm syndrom victim, I embraced her and began to love it.

Who hid the Dragonglass in the Fist of Men? Ros, of course.

Also, three guesses as to who is under Qualithe's mask.

(Also, an excellent episode mostly because it had interactions between my favorite banter couples...Tyrion/Bronn, Davos/Stannis, Jaime/Brienne. I had to go lie down after all that)

Fucking brilliant.

[Ghost714]

Why do people keep thinking Dagmer is Ramsey? Why would Ramsey just be chillin on the Iron Islands, hoping Theon would turn his cloak? How could Roose know Theon would be a turncloak?

If this guy was not a true "Iron Islander", then how does he know enough to school Theon on their ways and customs, and wouldn't Theon's crew notice if this guy was not Ironborn? If Dagmer is Ramsey, how would he sack Winterfell and take Theon captive? In the book, "Reek" said he knew some Dreadfort men he could find to come help them. In the show, what do you think "Dagmer" will do? I can't see him saying "my prince give me some bags of silver, I know I am "Ironborn", but unexplainably, I have hundreds of friends in the neighborhood that will come to your aid". Just to name a few holes in this crackpot theory...

The biggest one though IMO, is the fact that Dagmer is in his 40's, and he looks it!!! Roose in the book, is in his mid to late 40's, Roose in the show looks about the same. However, for the sake of argument, let's just say Roose is 50, considering everybody was aged up a little bit for the show. Do you people think Roose had Ramsey when he was seven?!?

I know that Dagmer has been playing the role of Reek/Ramsey, every since Theon and his crew got to Winterfell, but that does not mean Dagmer is Ramsey.

The show gave some of the role of the Reeds to Osha, but that does not mean Osha is Meera Reed.

Obviously Dagmer could be Ramsey, the show can do that if they ultimately wanted to, I am just saying if that's the case, it makes no sense at all, and I hope the show writers aren't that dumb.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Weird to think of Stannis and Tyrion as in-laws.

[CrypticWeirwood]

The biggest one though IMO, is the fact that Dagmer is in his 40's, and he looks it!!! Roose in the book, is in his mid to late 40's, Roose in the show looks about the same. However, for the sake of argument, let's just say Roose is 50, considering everybody was aged up a little bit for the show. Do you people think Roose had Ramsey when he was seven?!?

Oh it’s workable, all right: Roose is supposed to look ridiculously young for his age, whereas Ramsey is supposed to look rather older than his age. Remember when Asha finally finds Theon again, she thinks he’s an old man. Clean living versus self-(or otherwise)abuse makes a huge real-world difference in perceived ages.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Yes, that's why the first part is more like a joke (it *was* funny), and the second is what I'm really thinking. I don't think people are as negative as you're making it out to be. @ Versiroth: Yes, I believe what Alboin is saying is that he doesn't mind that at all, but that he does mind the decision of Robb to bang her of his own accord (rather than Jeyne wanting to 'comfort' him) before even 'finding out' Bran and Rickon are dead (like most of us do). It just destroys a lot of sympathy you could have possibly had for the Starks that they take the decisions that lead to their doom without the emotional devastation that news caused them. It also destroys the possibility it was a Westerling plot all along (I always felt that way, what with Jeyne not getting pregnant and the Wolf not trusting them).

Yep. I really thought the whole Westerling Momma/Tywin/Frey plot which led to the RW was great writing and good storytelling, which we have been set up for. We know how prickly Frey is about being slighted by the greater houses- the Tully's in particular- from Season 1, so I do feel the motivation for him would be the same were Robb married to a Westerling vs. a Volantian. If folks feel the need to see the falling in love, that's their perrogative, just don't really see the point of switching her character. I'm not sure we need slave city backstory, slavery=bad to everyone already, just the fact of a city being a slave city would be enough, I think. I don't see how Tulisa's little life lesson story makes anyone feel anything about slavery that we didn't already.

It was clear in the books that Tywin and the Westerlings (not necessarily Jeyne, but maybe) had a deal; Mom Westerling kept pouring moon tea into Jeyne to keep her from producing an heir, and Tywin mentions the Reynes of Castamere in a conversation with Tyrion re: Robb and the Westerlings and we put two and two together. It's all perfect Tywin and I'm not sure why they might want to drop it. Hope they won't.

I should have just gone to school today instead of sitting home and bitching.

Probably.

I love Ygritte in the show more than I liked her in the books, and I really liked her in the books

I also think she's doing a great job, which is nice because I couldn't stand her in the books.

[Mulled Wino]

Man, Jon Snow looks like an impotent douche.

He can't buy a lick of credit on the TV series, he couldn't even get indirect credit for finding the dragonglass through Ghost.

[SelaBela]

Hey we got the full Monty from Theon in season 1...

Theon?? :ack: Might be worth muting and watching, but we almost got ROBB!

Besides, I think androsexual outrage over the lack of man meat has been kept at a minimum. Whereas if there was a marked decrease in boobies, gynosexuals would be up in arms.

Though the comments would get a lot less creepy.

[Balefont]

Why is Cat having the upper hand in the morality debate a problem for the show? I'm still not sure why they changed it; makes more sense for Catelyn to free Jaime and Robb to sleep with Jeyne (Talisa) after they found out Bran and Rickon died. The timeline matched up too, if they just waited an extra episode. It's not like they needed to move up Jaime's escape.

Makes for better TV, imo.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Man, Jon Snow looks like an impotent douche.

Why do you call him a “shower” for fuck’s sake!? Do you mean he’s a wet blanket, a party pooper? Or that he’s a jerk or a freak or a sop? Me no speaka dis nuvo kidztalk! What are you saying, this time in proper English instead of ghetto slang?

[CrypticWeirwood]

Probably.

’Fraid you’ve been flattened by my ironing board, mate.

[White Harbors Wrath]

Man, Jon Snow looks like an impotent douche. He can't buy a lick of credit on the TV series, he couldn't even get indirect credit for finding the dragonglass through Ghost.

Can you imagine that toolbag as head of the 'watch? He shouldn't be running the stables.

[A Stark in Salem]

Good episode. Jeyne is really hot, Jaime was wrong. All I want to know now is how the Battle of the Blackwater will be presented. The chain is not out of plans, or at least this episode made me think that way. Thank the Seven that GRRM is the writer of the episode.

When Tyrion and Varys were speaking, you could hear the distinct but faint sound of iron being hammered in the background for most of the scene. Obviously a detail meant only for book fans since anyone else would not notice it at all or not get it's inference.

[Arya The Assassin]

One of the best episodes so far! Looking forward to Blackwater!

Good:

• The first scene with Theon and his sister. Nice dialogue.
  
• Arya asks Jaqen to kill Tywin, but it turns out to be too late. This makes more sense than in the book, where she never asks him to kill Tywin (IIRC, she asks him to kill someone else of lesser importance, and she basically wastes her opportunity). A pity I don't get to see more scenes with Arya and Tywin, their scenes have been one of the biggest highlights of the series so far.
  
• The scene with Tyrion and Bronn was a bit funny.
  
• Tyrion and Cersei. Well acted and written scene. Nice touch to introduce Ros as Tyrion's whore (but perhaps not that surprising).
  

Bad:

• A was a bit disappointed that we didn't get to see the 'weasel soup' (or at least some kind of action), but I didn't really expect it to happen anyway because of the other (positive) changes that had been made. And it also makes more sense to me that they manage to escape in this 'stealthy' manner, given the circumstances.
  

[CrypticWeirwood]

No royal Robb-arse? For shame!

[A Stark in Salem]

Can you imagine that toolbag as head of the 'watch? He shouldn't be running the stables.

Can you imagine that toolbag as head of the 'watch? He shouldn't be running the stables.

Yeah, well for some reason they haven't bothered to even show Ghost except a few seconds for about a week in the show's timeline. Save some money some where else people and keep the wolves in the story! It can't be that expensive for Pete's sake. They are not CG, but enlarged/composited actual wolf actors. It's not a super expensive thing to do (and I work in CG). Maybe I'll volunteer my services to next season just to see more of the dire-wolves, heheh.