[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion

[CrypticWeirwood]

Why do people still think Dagmer is Ramsay?

For several possible reasons not often mentioned:

• One is that they don’t believe Ralph Ineson would be cast for a merely third- or even fourth-tier villain like Cleftjaw rather than for a second-tier one like Ramsey. It’s a lot of money and acting chops for somebody who’s bound to go away really soon. The only possible reason is because he’s been given a lot of Ramsey’s plot points — which he quite obviously has — even without being that person. It might be another Osha-née-Meera thing.
  
• Another is that Theon didn’t recognize his old teacher, Cleftjaw. That’s really rather weird.
  
• One more minor one is that Dagmer’s jaw isn’t even cloven, although this isn’t a very strong motivator; I doubt we’ll see Tyrion lose his nose nor any other important limb or member.
  

Edited May 21, 2012 by CrypticWeirwood

[Ghost714]

First Impression:

I can't believe how negative I am about this episode. I have never scored any of them below a 6/10 (and my average score is like in the high 8's), this was a 4/10 and that may be generous. I am hoping I realize I am wrong after a second watching.

Rattleshirt scene was ok, though he looked a bit cartoonish for the show. The scene was fine though. The Quorin/Jon setup was adequate, though only because I like what is coming. This storyline was basically wasted material this week. Where the hell is Ghost?

Robb and Catelyn was excellent. One of two scenes worth watching. Sadly it led to Robb and not-Jeyne: For the first time in 18 episodes, i found myself wondering where my smartphone was so I could play a round of Draw Something while watching an episode. Boring beyond belief. I realize we haven't had sex on screen for a bit and HBO was probably going to fire people if a nipple wasn't seen soon; however this was so forced anf generic, I was reminded of The Matrix 2.

Cersei and Tyrion was just more of the same, and I'm tired of it now. This is probably hurt by the fact I knew it would be Roz, and I don't care what happens to Roz. Not that I cared what happened to Shea in the books, either. Tyrion's reunion with Shae was forced and flat.

Tyrion and Varys is the only other (Robb/Catelyn) thing wirth watxhing in this episode. Good enough scene. I am expecting the people who were holding out hope for a miracle chain scene disagree.

Sam, Grenn and DE worked but really seemed thrown in randomly.

I think there was a Dany/Jorah scene. I seriously can't remember it. I'm pretty sure she ordered him to go get her dragons last week. Why is he still there? Complete waste of time.

Stannis/Davos was fine, though unremarkable. Compared to most of the rest of this episode, it was a pleasant relief from the drudgery.

What an awful (on the GoT scale) episode.

I don't see how anybody can think any of the episodes are boring. Most people call me a purist(even though I have like many of the changes, as long as they are done well), and even if I wish the show was more true to the book, I would never say any of the episodes are boring. No matter what, source material aside, it's still a good show. I watch every episode three times, and I have done the same with this episode, and not one episode on any of my rewatches, has ever been boring(and I have seen a lot of the episodes even more than three times).

[Lannes]

At this point, I almost hope that Dagmer=Ramsey....just so I can watch the internets explode with the intensity of a thousand suns.....

Edited May 21, 2012 by Lannes

[CrypticWeirwood]

The Robb and Catelyn scene worked excellently well. Bravo (and brava, respectively) for them.

[Ghost714]

For several possible reasons not often mentioned:

• One is that they don’t believe Ralph Ineson would be cast for a merely third- or even fourth-tier villain like Cleftjaw rather than for a second-tier one like Ramsey. It’s a lot of money and acting chops for somebody who’s bound to go away really soon. The only possible reason is because he’s been given a lot of Ramsey’s plot points — which he quite obviously has — even without being that person. It might be another Osha-née-Meera thing.
  
• Another is that Theon didn’t recognize his old teacher, Cleftjaw. That’s really rather weird.
  
• One more minor one is that Dagmer’s jaw isn’t even cloven, although this isn’t a very strong motivator; I doubt we’ll see Tyrion lose his nose nor any other important limb or member.
  

Ok, your post explains why the idea might pop into some people's heads, that Dagmer is Ramsey, but it does not explain why people would continue to believe that, if they actually gave it some real thought.

How is it possible for Dagmer to be Ramsey, he looks almost older than Roose, at minimum, way to old to be Roose's son. Why would he be on the Iron Islands? How would he know Theon would turn his cloak? How would the other Ironborn not know him for false, I mean Theon spent most of his adult life in Winterfell, so it might be understandable that he doesn't see Dagmer as a false Iron Islander, but how would Ramsey fool everyone else? The list literally goes on...

[midnightrider]

First Impression: I can't believe how negative I am about this episode. I have never scored any of them below a 6/10 (and my average score is like in the high 8's), this was a 4/10 and that may be generous. I am hoping I realize I am wrong after a second watching. Rattleshirt scene was ok, though he looked a bit cartoonish for the show. The scene was fine though. The Quorin/Jon setup was adequate, though only because I like what is coming. This storyline was basically wasted material this week. Where the hell is Ghost? Robb and Catelyn was excellent. One of two scenes worth watching. Sadly it led to Robb and not-Jeyne: For the first time in 18 episodes, i found myself wondering where my smartphone was so I could play a round of Draw Something while watching an episode. Boring beyond belief. I realize we haven't had sex on screen for a bit and HBO was probably going to fire people if a nipple wasn't seen soon; however this was so forced anf generic, I was reminded of The Matrix 2. Cersei and Tyrion was just more of the same, and I'm tired of it now. This is probably hurt by the fact I knew it would be Roz, and I don't care what happens to Roz. Not that I cared what happened to Shea in the books, either. Tyrion's reunion with Shae was forced and flat. Tyrion and Varys is the only other (Robb/Catelyn) thing wirth watxhing in this episode. Good enough scene. I am expecting the people who were holding out hope for a miracle chain scene disagree. Sam, Grenn and DE worked but really seemed thrown in randomly. I think there was a Dany/Jorah scene. I seriously can't remember it. I'm pretty sure she ordered him to go get her dragons last week. Why is he still there? Complete waste of time. Stannis/Davos was fine, though unremarkable. Compared to most of the rest of this episode, it was a pleasant relief from the drudgery. What an awful (on the GoT scale) episode.

I couldn't agree more. You really hit the nail on the head. I also found myself wanting to do something else, besides watch the show. I started checking my email, etc. This is the first time in all 18 episodes that I completely lost interest. I also watch the show with some friends each week. (All which are non-readers) A few of them said that they do not think they want to keep investing in the show.

The first season was so amazing, and this season has really derailed. HBO focuses on unimportant scenes, and leaves out exciting moments from the book. ??? I feel like every episodes is the same thing, and very little happens. I find that I am not emotionally invested in the characters this season. The season is very rushed and disjointed. I really want the show to stay on the air, but the books only get MORE involved and much more complex. If HBO doesn't start formatting the show differently, I do not think they are going to be able to hold a fan base beyond the loyal readers.

This is just my opinion, and I do not want to upset anyone. :blushing:

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[CrypticWeirwood]

Sure wish folks would try unravelling show-Xaro and Dany-Aerys’s certain revenge upon him for betraying her babies, and what possible rôle Chekov’s Treasure Vault will play in Dany’s broader multi-season plot arc. Pretty sure this all has to go down in S2E10, not later.

But S2E10 has to have a whole series’ worth of critical denoument points in it, including:

• Tyrion’s narrowly surviving Ser Mandon Moore’s perfidy, and subsequent loss of Handship
  
• Stannis’s retreat to Dragonstone and reunion with the Red Witch
  
• Davos’s rescue from the rocks and imprisonment
  
• the combined return of Tywin victorious, along with the two widowed Tyrells siblings
  
• Sandor’s fugue
  
• the breaking-up of Bran and Rickon with their appointed guardians, probably Osha+Hodor vs the surprisingly surviving (but surely not sempervirent) Maester Luwin
  

I don’t really see Chekov’s Treasure Vault as denouement, but maybe. Same with Jaqen’s guaranteed shapechange and gift of coin to Arya. Do Robb and that woman get some sort of denouement? What about Jaime and Brienne? And what of Harrenhall?

Colour me méfiant, but that’s a lot of denouement to still fit in key non-denouement parts like

• the sack of Winterfell — but at whose hand, at whose hand?
  
• and of course Dany’s grand Casa de los Vampiros conflagration.
  

Will Barristan really still rescue Dany from the manticore so that they can all of them sail off into the sunset together? I really can’t see how they can possibly fit this in yet this season.

Edited May 21, 2012 by CrypticWeirwood

[CrypticWeirwood]

I love that Brienne was riding a white horse! Shows who’s the white knight in this courtship, eh?

[CrypticWeirwood]

Now we know where all the horse-budget went!

[Husband to Bears]

Tyrion: "If Stannis breaches the gates, the game is over."

Varys: "They say he burns his enemies alive to honor the Lord of Light."

Tyrion"The Lord of Light wants his enemies burned. The Drowned God wants them drowned. Why are all the gods such vicious cunts? Where is the god of tits and wine?"

Varys"In the Summer Isles. They worship the fertility goddess with sixteen teats."

Tyrion "We should sail there immediately."

[Markers]

Great episode as usual.

Watching this episode I had an epiphany...Could Dagmer/Reek be just be an imagination of Theon? Nobody has ever talked to him. When they talk to each other they're always alone

Edited May 21, 2012 by Markers

[StannisandDaeny]

If that's true Maester Luwin has a very funny way of walking to synchronize with Theon imagining Dagmer pushing him around.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Don’t you think people’d have a whole lot more trouble with Dagmer being a figment of Theon’s damaged imagination than his being Ramsey?

[CrypticWeirwood]

If that's true Maester Luwin has a very funny way of walking to synchronize with Theon imagining Dagmer pushing him around.

The evidence is right there in his maester’s chain. See that link forged of metallurgic alldizium? That one’s from the Ministry of Silly Walks.

Edited May 21, 2012 by CrypticWeirwood

[gougef]

Rattleshirt was sooo much better in the show than in the book imo. He looked scary and mean. This episode was perfect!

I always thought that he sounded kind of comical in the books.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

True, but if they had not bothered to have so much "Robb" time, which he gets none in the books whatsoever, maybe we have much more time for everyone else. Think of it: they have a mere ten ep.s for this massive book and they give Robb his own set of scenes, plus this new made up chick and her own story line. Why? It adds nothing to the overall series and he of all the characters changes the least of any. I'm sure it's why GRRM never gave him his own POVs. He stays the same more or less, despite his actions being pivotal to the stories of all the other characters.

Because it's television and it's important for the viewer to see more of Robb to feel emotionally connected to him for when the RW happens. Why would the audience care if we only get a few small snippets of him? We need to know who he is and what is character thinks. Also it is important for the viewer to see his romance with Talisa/Jeyne develop so they understand why he would make such a grevious error in his alliance with the Freys.

[Arawni]

Two things re: Robb:

First, I found this.

And...

I just re-watched ep. 8 and he and Talisa/Tulisa/whatever are definitely walking toward Robb's camp, as in having been to the Crag and are now returning. The rider coming from the camp approaches them from the front.

EDIT: This was talked about earlier in the thread i.e. whether or not they'd already been to the Crag or were going there and were called back.

Wow. It was actually strange to read that article you linked because those were exactly my thought about Robb and Talisa ending up having sex. As a non-reader I did not expect him to hear about Bran and Rickon and then fell into the arms of the first available woman. I actually felt for Robb in this episode. He goes on and on raving about how Theon betrayed him and then he felt that his mother betrayed him, too. So he's utterly ALONE - and here comes someone with whom he can connect, who listens to him. So he succumbs. I found it believable.

I've read about Robb's marriage in the books and reasons behind it. However, I don't buy them. So Robb is this very honourable guy who wants to "do the right thing". How come rescuing a lady is more honorauble than keeping the word he has given to one of the lord and who has already done him a great favor? If Robb IS so very honourable, I simply cannot believe he would back from his word just because of one night's mistake. Actually I would've expected him to act like Ned and promise he'd raise the child if sex has lead to pregnancy.

Only reason I can see an honourable Robb to break his promise is the one thing that makes even clever and apt people do stupid things: love. And while I'm not that invested in Robb/Talisa pairing, at least I find it believable that he falls in love and because of that breaks his promise to lord Frey.

[StannisandDaeny]

Robb is nothing short of hypocritical in this episode. He isn't around to keep his men in control because he's on a random love date and then blames his momma for it, then loses the Freys for no reason other than a random girl, which is much worse than attempting to trade the Kingslayer for (in their mind) 2 girls. As formidable as he is Jaime doesn't weigh up to the difference of having the full support or the full enmity of the Freys. Please don't proclaim you're a non-reader and then say 'I don't buy the reasons from the book'. That's just irritating. Book-Robb is like, 15 years old and not as much a douche as Show-Robb (who jumps Jeyne rather than being jumped by her after he's injured and heard about Bran and Rickon's 'deaths') and there's far more (often subtle) information in the books than you can get on the net.

Edited May 21, 2012 by StannisandDaeny

[Arawni]

Robb is nothing short of hypocritical in this episode. He isn't around to keep his men in control because he's on a random love date and then blames his momma for it, then loses the Freys for no reason other than a random girl, which is much worse than attempting to trade the Kingslayer for (in their mind) 2 girls. As formidable as he is Jaime doesn't weigh up to difference having the full support or the full enmity of the Freys. Please don't proclaim you're a non-reader and then say 'I don't buy the reasons from the book'. That's just irritating. Book-Robb is like, 15 years old and not as much a douche as Show-Robb (who jumps Jeyne rather than being jumped by her after he's injured and heard about Bran and Rickon) and there's far more (often subtle) information in the books than you can get on the net.

Ok. I'll say that I don't buy people's interpretation of the book-Robb's actions. Happy?

I do think that Robb is doing major mistakes here and yes, he's also somewhat a hyppocrite. He wants to make war but doesn't want to face the consequenses of fighting. He's trying to live some kind of ideal that's not really possible but still he's requiring other people to back up his delusions. So he's far from being practical and efficient leader and it's no wonder he'll loosing support of his bannermen and he would've even without marrying the wrong the girl. He's actually little bit like Hannibal trying to beat Rome: he can win but he cannot ripe fruits of his winnings. He's very flawed, indeed and cannot even excuse himself as being almost a child. So basically he's humanbeing. Which is why I'm starting to like this guy. Pity he has to die but truth be told he is asking for it.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Why do the First Men have such frosty manhole covers?