[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion

[Lyonel B]

My only criticism of the episode was it was a bit slow, but that is always going to be the case when an episode is heavy with exposition that, for those of us who have read the books, is not necessary.

I'm watching it with someone who has never read a single page of ASOIAF, and they are absolutely loving the show.

[CrypticWeirwood]

It's a time limited TV show. Would you honestly have rather them give screen time to a bunch of random characters like in the book? And on top of that, a lot of what you get in the book is inner monologue. Another writing device that doesn't work on screen. ... Taken for what it is, this is an awesome show. The best on TV right now, IMO. It's honestly sad that people that have read the books (well, a lot) can't just watch it for what it is. This is NOT the book series. It's an adaptation. Minor things will change a lot and very important things will change some too from time to time.. It happens. Stop watching it with a magnifying glass and a copy of the book in hand and you'll enjoy it much, much more. Otherwise, you might as well stop watching altogether and just re-read the books. I promise, nothing will have changed in those at all.

Excellently well put!

[Puck the Goat]

Oh.. and the Tyrion/Varys stuff was great! I love how Varys gives just enough info about Dany to make himself look like an informant, but discredits her as being so far away and insignificant to the game.

[CrypticWeirwood]

My only criticism of the episode was it was a bit slow, but that is always going to be the case when an episode is heavy with exposition that, for those of us who have read the books, is not necessary. I'm watching it with someone who has never read a single page of ASOIAF, and they are absolutely loving the show.

It’s truly remarkable for how many the experience of having read the books has made watching the show a source for such pathetic misery and abject despair, dead ashes in their mouths instead of the joy that everyone else gets from it.

Smells like misplaced self-importance and childish self-entitlement to me. Why people continue to masochistically watch something that gives them so much hatred and anger and revulsion, I will never, ever come to understand. Like the doctor says, if it hurts so fucking much when you do that, don’t fucking do that. Duh!

Edited May 21, 2012 by CrypticWeirwood

[AegonTheUnlikely]

Seems like opinions regarding the show have diverged here a bit in the last several weeks. Allow me to throw in my own two cents.

1. Robb+Talisa/Jeyne- I was sure she wold turn out to be Jeyne Westerling when she was hesitant to go to the Crag, I'm less certain about that now. But either way, I disagree with all those who call this romance 'useless.' Jeyne Westerling was never more than a plot device, to get Robb to break his pact with Walder Frey, and eventually set up the Red Wedding. Whether she is Jeyne Westerling, or some random Volantene girl, the effect of her and Robb's whirlwind romance/marriage is the same: Frey is pissed, and Bolton see's a chance to move up in the world. Their romance isn't the most interesting thing on the show; but I don't disagree with the showrunners on this one. Robb can't disappear for an entire season- from a storytelling point of view (too long of a hiatus for fans to keep up interest), and from a production point of view (if Madden walks and gets another job, you might not get him back).

2. Arya at Herrenhal- I've liked these bits all season. I once again agree, mostly, with the decisions the producers have made. Having Harrenhal change hands as often as it did in the books would confuse fans- it confused me a bit my first read through. Also, without the Bloody Mummers its kind of impossible to work in the whole weasel soup/double-cross. Lorch was bound for the grave anyways, and Gregor Clegane isn't very well going to betray the Lannisters. The thing about the weasel soup episode, if I'm not mistaken, was that Arya's plan was just kind of icing on the cake. Hoat was already going to give Harrenhal to Bolton (of course, speculation abounds as to whether this was all part of Tywin's plans to set the Red Wedding in motion; it might very well have been his first move in that gambit. IIRC, not long after Bolton takes the castle, Arya overhears the Frey prisoners arguing- over whether or not to get on board the Tywin Train). With so many characters out, it would have been impossible to really recreate the book's plot there. But think about it- Jacquen killing multiple guards serves as a 'weasel soup' of sorts (Arya's last name resulting in multiple deaths of unsuspecting guards); and just because she didn't kill anyone on the way out doesn't mean that she can't slit some poor SOB's throat in episode 9, or 10, and whisper "valar morghulis" as he slips to the ground. I think Maise Williams is a fantastic Arya, and I'm ok with how her story is moving along.

Theon!- I think Theon's story in the north is being executed perfectly. Others have said, and I agree, that this was the first time I ever really liked Yara in a scene. She hasn't lived up to the Asha in my mind, but that character only started to become more interesting to me after aCoK anyways. I actually very much enjoyed her chapters in aDwD; call me crazy, but I rather enjoy the whole Iron Born subplot. I'm interested in how Leuwin knowing for certain that Bran and Rickon are alive changes things, but it I think its relatively minor. Indeed, it might turn his unfortunate death into a more noble sacrifice for the little lords. I think speculation that at least one, if not both, Reeds will show up next season is probably correct. The meeting can be done in a number of believable ways, and keeps the story moving on the right track (splitting up Bran and Rickon, destinations, etc.). The fact that Rickon gets so little screen time now is a good thing, in that if he become important several seasons down the line, they can pretty much recast that character as soon as he and Bran are split- unless they plan on showing some of those formerly offscreen adventures. OTOH, the actress playing Osha is said to be a favorite of the showrunners, so they may be juggling who escorts who where. Which might result in Leuwin being left alive to take Rickon.

Tyrion- I've liked his bits this season, too. Its obvious they've streamlined quite a bit (I was mildly disappointed that we don't get as much a sense of Tyrion's personal force of crazy mountain tribespeople; also, not nearly enough Pod, who like Rickon perhaps is being kept anonymous because of a need for future recasting). But, I think the cuts have been mostly good, and they work. I'm surprised they cut the chain, as that seems the easiest bit of the Blackwater to leave in- but Tyrion's masterful defense of King's Landing was the result of more than just one idea. He made several key decisions; as long as enough of them are in the mix, it's his victory.

Jon Snow- Another bit where I've agreed with the changes. I would have preferred the Fist be in the woods, not on a mountain top, but thats nitpicking, IMO. I think the stuff at Craster's, and the changes made with Jon+Ygritte+Qhorin appear to be getting us to the same place. Qhorin has set Jon up to kill him, and go undercover with the Free Folk. It even creates a nice parallel with Jon's earlier inability to do what needed to be done.

Danny- Her's is the story I've been most underwhelmed by; but I don't think its the showrunner's fault. Danny does nothing in Qarth in the books, besides asking for aid from every faction in town, and being turned down by each. The HotU serves as the catalyst to get her on the move. I fully understand why the changes that were made were necessary. How much additional time would it have taken to set up and explain: the pure-born, each of the 3 merchant guilds, Xaro's place as a leader in one of those guilds, the guilds' continuous conflict among themselves, and with the pure-born, and the warlock's and their part in the ongoing petrification of Qarth. Too much, its all too complicated for what amounts to the B (or even C) plot of the book. So the fact that Danny's story has been unfamiliar, and not up to the same quality as the rest of the plots, is not surprising. I'm not worried, though- she still is going to go to the HotU, will still likely burn it down (only she'll mean it this time!), and will still likely have to leave the city quite quickly afterwards. Enter Arstan Whitebeard, talk about a ship sent by Illyrio, and scene. She still goes to Astapor next season, and does her thing in Slaver's Bay. It will be interesting to see if Mereen, where Danny does do quite a bit, will translate better than Qarth.

Wheh, that was long. Any thoughts?

EDIT: Oh, I forgot Sansa. Her story has tracked the book pretty closely. I will say I'm somewhat surprised/disappointed that Ser Dontos has been basically ignored since she saved him from his Ironic Death. Her's is another story that I think will pick up steam once she marries Tyrion, and the Tyrells show up. I suppose that maybe they've delayed the note, and plans to escape, might be due to a desire to make it clear that the entire operation is Littlefinger's. As far as Sansa's story is concerned, as long as they get one of my favorite lines in, I'll be happy : LF telling Sansa to get the guards after pusing Lysa out the Moon Door- "This singer's just killed my wife." Delicious.

Edited May 21, 2012 by AegonTheUnlikely

[Jolene Brown]

Jeyne Westerling was never more than a plot device, to get Robb to break his pact with Walder Frey, and eventually set up the Red Wedding. Whether she is Jeyne Westerling, or some random Volantene girl, the effect of her and Robb's whirlwind romance/marriage is the same: Frey is pissed, and Bolton see's a chance to move up in the world.

You make a lot of good points, but this is one that other people have made and that I really disagree with. It makes a huge difference in how people see Robb, and whether she is Jeyne Westerling in the books or Talisa as written in the show or even Talisa who turns out to be Jeyne says very different things about who he is as a person and how we see his decision to marry her.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Danny- Hers is the story I've been most underwhelmed by; but I don't think its the showrunner's fault. Danny does nothing in Qarth in the books, besides asking for aid from every faction in town, and being turned down by each. The House of the Undying serves as the catalyst to get her on the move. I fully understand why the changes that were made were necessary. How much additional time would it have taken to set up and explain: the pure-born, each of the 3 merchant guilds, Xaro's place as a leader in one of those guilds, the guilds' continuous conflict among themselves, and with the pure-born, and the warlock's and their part in the ongoing petrification of Qarth. Too much, its all too complicated for what amounts to the B (or even C) plot of the book. So the fact that Danny's story has been unfamiliar, and not up to the same quality as the rest of the plots, is not surprising. I'm not worried, though- she still is going to go to the House of the Undying, will still likely burn it down (only she'll mean it this time!), and will still likely have to leave the city quite quickly afterwards. Enter Arstan Whitebeard, talk about a ship sent by Illyrio, and scene. She still goes to Astapor next season, and does her thing in Slaver's Bay. It will be interesting to see if Mereen, where Danny does do quite a bit, will translate better than Qarth. Wheh, that was long. Any thoughts?

Agree that Dany’s plodding ineffectiveness at her begging in Qarth accurately reflects how she was in the book. She is unwittingly recreating her brother’s sad tale that earned him the name of the Beggar King.

The change in Xaro is intriguing; I want to know what they are trying to do with him. He’s now black instead of gay, and more importantly, he is now involved in this plot to take her dragons from her and to become “King of Quarth”. How come he let all of his own men get killed?

Why take the dragonlings only to give them back? Seems like a strange way to go about it. The warlocks didn’t think they could get her to come visit the House of the Undying to have their vampires suck out her lifeblood without the lure of her stolen dragons? Really?

And what is Chekov’s Treasure Vault all about, eh? What is the form that Xaro’s comeuppance will take? Or are the showwriters intent on following Martin’s lead in which people don’t get their comeuppance, because life isn’t about justice?

[King Rickon]

Anyone else want to see a show where Bronn, Tyrion, and Varys drive around the country in a van solving mysteries? Anyone? Because I would pay cash money for that.

Yes! Please, please, please! And if we could throw in Little Finger and Jaime along the way to further prod them, it would be wonderful. I call all of the Varys/Littlefinger scenes in Season 1 "dick-offs" as they're both trying to be ever so dickish (but in the politest way) to each other.

[pleonasm]

1. This was the reveal that Tyrion WAS head over heels! Even Shae seemed surprised. Not everything in a TV show can have an elaborate build up. A lot of people simply expect too much. It's obvious that Tyrion was trying to hide/protect Shae and in this episode, we find out that he's in love with her. 2. So, you'd have rather Robb go off to the Crag and then come back married to some random girl? They couldn't have the duaghter of the enemy roaming around in Robbs camp. Even if it would have been that Jeyne was there to spy as people guessed, Robb would have been forced to execute her once he found out for providing intel to his enemies. This way, you get to see more with Robb, you get to see why he broke his oath and you get to see their love story. This will make future events hit even harder. The fact that Robb marries Jeyne has no consequence in the show/books at all. Talisa gives the audiance something to see in the show from Robb. The book barely had him in it at all. 3. Arya and Tywin gave screen time and insight to two important characters. Regardless of people thinking Arya some how "too innocent" in the show due to not killing a guard herself, She ordered the death of two men and was also responsible for the death of those guards. That alone shows she's capable to taking life. It shows the path she'd going down. I'm guessing they will use the "killing" part as a character arc once she gets to Braavos. They'll likely make her struggle with it. It's a time limited TV show. Would you honestly have rather them give screen time to a bunch of random characters like in the book? And on top of that, a lot of what you get in the book is inner monologue. Another writing device that doesn't work on screen. 4. I don't disagree that Dany's story is the weakest this season, but I appreciate that they tried. Martin really didn't do much with her in this book other than in the HoTU, so the writers on the show gave it more build up. All they did was try to spice up what they were given. Luckily, her story gets better going forward. Taken for what it is, this is an awesome show. The best on TV right now, IMO. It's honestly sad that people that have read the books (well, a lot) can't just watch it for what it is. This is NOT the book series. It's an adaptation. Minor things will change a lot and very important things will change some too from time to time.. It happens. Stop watching it with a magnifying glass and a copy of the book in hand and you'll enjoy it much, much more. Otherwise, you might as well stop watching altogether and just re-read the books. I promise, nothing will have changed in those at all.

I think you are missing the criticism. It isn't that change is bad. Its the quality of the changes that's the problem. This is a we will have to be an agree to disagree arguement. This is hardly the best tv show on right now. Yes - It might be the most ambitious, but the quality of writing and plotting is mixed at best. And we all realize its an adaption which will necessitate changes. In fact, when they do it well, I think they deserve tonnes of credit (i.e. Theon's execution of Roderick). When its done poorly or not thought through, they can be called out.

Tywin and Arya is annoying, because there is no payoff. Its a great concept, with a some great moments, but its pointless because of the lack of payoff.

Shae fails, because the writing never established the importance of the relationship to Tyrion before the scene with Cersei. Or a single scene that redeems Shae as a character. They attempted last week with her coming to the defence of Sansa, but that felt trite to me.

Talisa and Robb is boring. That's the problem. It not that they changed anything, but the change itself is boring. Replace Talisa with Jeyne Westerling and retain the same scenes and dialouge and it still would suck.

I know good dramatic and comedic writing when I see it and this season has unfortunately lots of bad writing and plotting.

Edited May 21, 2012 by pleonasm

[AegonTheUnlikely]

You make a lot of good points, but this is one that other people have made and that I really disagree with. It makes a huge difference in how people see Robb, and whether she is Jeyne Westerling in the books or Talisa as written in the show or even Talisa who turns out to be Jeyne says very different things about who he is as a person and how we see his decision to marry her.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one. I found Jeyne more important not for what she was, but what she wasn't. She wasn't a Frey, and she wasn't a Northerner. She wasn't the prudent choice. Its tough to quibble with the direction the producers take with scenes and material that was only ever offscreen. We never really see how Jeyne and Robb fall for each other, so I was never all that attached to it as a subplot.

Agree that Dany’s plodding ineffectiveness at her begging in Qarth accurately reflects how she was in the book. She is unwittingly recreating her brother’s sad tale that earned him the name of the Beggar King. The change in Xaro is intriguing; I want to know what they are trying to do with him. He’s now black instead of gay, and more importantly, he is now involved in this plot to take her dragons from her and to become “King of Quarth”. How come he let all of his own men get killed? Why take the dragonlings only to give them back? Seems like a strange way to go about it. The warlocks didn’t think they could get her to come visit the House of the Undying to have their vampires suck out her lifeblood without the lure of her stolen dragons? Really? And what is Chekov’s Treasure Vault all about, eh? What is the form that Xaro’s comeuppance will take? Or are the showwriters intent on following Martin’s lead in which people don’t get their comeuppance, because life isn’t about justice?

Most of that is just to take up time. They have to find some way for "Danny does nothing in Qarth; leaves," to fill space, and bridge the gap to a much cooler third and fourth season. Xaro is black because they liked the actor, and in any event it's only of minor importance. The racial composition of the city in the books may play some small role; but where Qarth has been simplified politically, it doesn't really matter. It also give them the option of perhaps cutting out a Slaver's Bay City (Yunkai?), and having Xaro/Qarth fill that role come Mereen. It gives Danny a nice, memorable antagonist out there, which may be useful.

[rmholt]

Is there really this huge clamor to know more about Volantis? It seems weird to infodump something that will not become even remotely relevant until they hit ADWD, if then. Why not make her from Astapor, Yunkai, or Mereen? Or Bravoos? It just seems odd. It's hard for me to see why including info about Volantis is a big positive.

Res ipsa loquitor. The fact that the writers put in the volantis soliloquy means they thought it was important. not having been in the writers room, whether there was a clamor or not, I cant answer

[Versiroth]

How many folks had this complaint last season? Not as many as this season I gather . .. They have changed the nature. I don't care about Talisa or Jeyne, I don't care about Ygritte have better teeth than I have in the 21st century, I don't care about Shae, I don't care about Bronn being head of the Gold Cloaks, or Melisandre being skinny and not curvylicious, The reality is that when you have something so essential as the development of a relationship between Jon and the Halfhand, and something as essential as the black rage and utter despair of Robb and Cat after she hears that Bran and Rickon are slaughtered, you start to lose the nature of the story, the nature of the drama. Halfhand's death will seem pointless as Jon is already questioning his vows to the watch thanks to some booty shaking by Ygritte (who looks flawless for a wilding woman), and it seems like Cat was just a selfish weasel. Not a mother who had nothing left, a dead husband, 2 dead children, and was all in for her girls . .. it harms the nature of the story. I will admit and will take chastening for my whining earlier this month, you are correct, I need to read ACOK and shut up. But not this time, this was WRONG, this was GARBAGE, this had me furious because it makes the Starks look like selfish jerks. Right now the Lannisters look more noble and trustworthy than the Starks . . .

Robb and Catelyn... DRAMA! Robb locking up his own mom = Drama. Robb releasing her when he finds out that his brothers are dead = drama. Robb instantly forgiving Catelyn never made sense in the books anyway. This way, he did the right thing by imprisoning her and the news of the deaths will give him reason to release her. And it was made obviously clear that Karstark was planning on killing Jaime. So, her releasing him in an attempt to free her daughters was obvious. Learning of her sons deaths doesn't change that she saw this as her lone opportunity to free her daughters.

Not once has Jon shown to be questioning his vows. He couldn't kill Ygritte in the books and he couldn't in the show. Heck, in the books, he actually lets her go... which shows him staying more tru to his vows that in the book even. The Halfhands death will be the same. He will order Jon to kill him and then play the role of spy. They're already setting that up. The only difference is that Jon got more time with Ygritte, a character that will play a big part next season over Quorin, who dies soon anyway.

Some times, written word just doesn't translate. You can't read a book and then expect inner monologue, pointless travel scenes, scenes about how much food the characters have left, etc will make the cut into a time limited series. They simply do not have the time.

[rmholt]

OK... they could have handled Dany's bit in 5 to 10 minutes. House of Undying... grab those babies... burn the place down. Then we could have her meet up with her new friends at the docks in episode 10. Instead we had the goofy scene with Robb. I am glad that the boys are in the crypt. That helps. So long as when they come out, the Reeds are waiting for them.

I tend to agree with whoever posted that Maester Luwin is going to be going with Bran, Osha with Rickon. Bran may have to take on the greendreaming duties. Did he not have the dream about the sea drowning Winterfell earlier in the TV series?

[HyacinthGirl]

1. This was the reveal that Tyrion WAS head over heels! Even Shae seemed surprised. Not everything in a TV show can have an elaborate build up. A lot of people simply expect too much. It's obvious that Tyrion was trying to hide/protect Shae and in this episode, we find out that he's in love with her. 2. So, you'd have rather Robb go off to the Crag and then come back married to some random girl? They couldn't have the duaghter of the enemy roaming around in Robbs camp. Even if it would have been that Jeyne was there to spy as people guessed, Robb would have been forced to execute her once he found out for providing intel to his enemies. This way, you get to see more with Robb, you get to see why he broke his oath and you get to see their love story. This will make future events hit even harder. The fact that Robb marries Jeyne has no consequence in the show/books at all. Talisa gives the audiance something to see in the show from Robb. The book barely had him in it at all. 3. Arya and Tywin gave screen time and insight to two important characters. Regardless of people thinking Arya some how "too innocent" in the show due to not killing a guard herself, She ordered the death of two men and was also responsible for the death of those guards. That alone shows she's capable to taking life. It shows the path she'd going down. I'm guessing they will use the "killing" part as a character arc once she gets to Braavos. They'll likely make her struggle with it. It's a time limited TV show. Would you honestly have rather them give screen time to a bunch of random characters like in the book? And on top of that, a lot of what you get in the book is inner monologue. Another writing device that doesn't work on screen. 4. I don't disagree that Dany's story is the weakest this season, but I appreciate that they tried. Martin really didn't do much with her in this book other than in the HoTU, so the writers on the show gave it more build up. All they did was try to spice up what they were given. Luckily, her story gets better going forward. Taken for what it is, this is an awesome show. The best on TV right now, IMO. It's honestly sad that people that have read the books (well, a lot) can't just watch it for what it is. This is NOT the book series. It's an adaptation. Minor things will change a lot and very important things will change some too from time to time.. It happens. Stop watching it with a magnifying glass and a copy of the book in hand and you'll enjoy it much, much more. Otherwise, you might as well stop watching altogether and just re-read the books. I promise, nothing will have changed in those at all.

:agree: Pretty much identical to my thoughts. I wish people would stop playing spot the difference and enjoy the show, because it's fantastic television. The phrase 'bad writing' or 'lazy writing' is thrown about so much on these threads but 99% unjustified to say that, because some people can't handle minor changes and go apeshit at the 'evil writers' for 'butchering' the show just because they're translating it into another medium. :rolleyes:

[rmholt]

Most important part of the episode for me: Dragonglass ! Great moment ! Otherwise, it was a pure episode of transition.

This would be true if I could figure out why they were digging up the snow to begin with. Seemed like a Monty Python moment.

[Versiroth]

I think you are missing the criticism. It isn't that change is bad. Its the quality of the changes that's the problem. This is a we will have to be an agree to disagree arguement. This is hardly the best tv show on right now. Yes - It might be the most ambitious, but the quality of writing and plotting is mixed at best. And we all realize its an adaption which will necessitate changes. In fact, when they do it well, I think they deserve tonnes of credit (i.e. Theon's execution of Roderick). When its done poorly or not thought through, they can be called out. Tywin and Arya is annoying, because there is no payoff. Its a great concept, with a some great moments, but its pointless because of the lack of payoff. Shae fails, because the writing never established the importance of the relationship to Tyrion before the scene with Cersei. Or a single scene that redeems Shae as a character. They attempted last week with her coming to the defence of Sansa, but that felt trite to me. Talisa and Robb is boring. That's the problem. It not that they changed anything, but the change itself is boring. Replace Talisa with Jeyne Westerling and retain the same scenes and dialouge and it still would suck. I know good dramatic and comedic writing when I see it and this season has unfortunately lots of bad writing and plotting.

Yeah, we will agree to disagree then because I disagree with you completely.

[Istari]

No I think he was talking about the Mountain. He left Gregor in charge and he told Arya to try to keep him sober. Basically Tywin gave her a death sentence! :P Speaking of the Mountain....let's talk about the MOST IMPORTANT question of the show! Who are the three men that Jaime think might be able to best him!?!?! I'd say the Mountain and the Hound for sure. Who is the third? In the books he does think about the men who are stronger than him: The Cleganes, Robert, the Greatjon, and Strongboar. I hope Jaime brings back this topic again so he can give the audience a mention to who I think the third is: The Red Viper. Would be a good setup to next season. ;)

Hound, Mountain, Barristan the Bold

[HyacinthGirl]

This would be true if I could figure out why they were digging up the snow to begin with. Seemed like a Monty Python moment.

Latrine trench, it was part of the dialogue.

[Versiroth]

This would be true if I could figure out why they were digging up the snow to begin with. Seemed like a Monty Python moment.

They said in the show that they were digging a latrine.

[rmholt]

More thoughts:

All the deviations from the book that I didnt care for were TOTALLY redeemed by Rattle shirt's helmet and armor.

People seem to have problems with what appears to be the fact that the Dagmar character carries some of the Ramsey/Reek load and there is another actor in the wings which Roose has sent to Winterfell who will come off the bench, kill Dagmer, and take over the Ramsey/Reek duties.

I console myself over the weasel soup scene by realizing that they probably wouldnt have met my expectations.

I would love to see Arya kill her pursuers after escaping Harrenhal in the form of Nymeria. That was a killer scene in the book. Not holding my breath!

It is stated in the book that giving Dragonstone to Stannis was MEANT as a slight - I think by Cersei.

I wish they had shown more clearly that Cersei was the loser in the Ros/Alayaya scene - by guessing the wrong whore - and giving Tyrion (or so he thought) justification for taking revenge. In this scene she looks like the winner. OTOH they do show the pathos of Tyrion fooling himself into falling in love with Shae which has been glaringly missing.

Here;s a broader question - why do the rangers wear black beyond the wall, talk about terrible camo.

All the best

Marie

Edited May 21, 2012 by rmholt