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[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion

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OK... they could have handled Dany's bit in 5 to 10 minutes. House of Undying... grab those babies... burn the place down. Then we could have her meet up with her new friends at the docks in episode 10.

Instead we had the goofy scene with Robb.

I am glad that the boys are in the crypt. That helps. So long as when they come out, the Reeds are waiting for them.

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I feel almost redeemed with this train wreck of an episode. Every major issue I've had with this season's writing was pretty much proven correct. 1. The miscast and terrible writing of Shae. Who bought for a second that Tyrion had fallen head over heels for her? There hasn't been a single scene this season that would suggest that his feelings are anything more than sexual, and now he is near tears? Uggh... 2. Talisa - Stupid unnecessary rewrite of a minor character which required a long lenghty and boring backstory this week, that adds really nothing to the Robb/Jeyne Westerling union. I wasn't against modifying the original story given the aging up of Robb's character, but this was as awful as expected. It isn't the actors, both are more than competent to deliver the goods, but I wasn't feeling anything with these two. Even the clumsy attempt of humour during the stripping down scene, as least I think was an attempt, came off as terrible. 3. Arya and Tywin - Yes - They have chemistry in spades, but other than Cersei and Tyrion, what two characters had more screen time together this season? And what was the point in the end? Nothing. Yes - We got some lessons in great acting from Charles Dance and Maise, but to have no real significant point for the characters suggests what a poorly thought out idea. Why not at least play up the drama and have Tywin get a letter from Tyrion indicating they have lost Arya and Tywin suddenly clueing in on who this high born girl is? At least it would add some drama to the events at Harrenhal. Or as I like to call it "Arya's Haunted Castle Vacation" 4. Qarth. Despite all the rewrites and changes, it remains the weak storyline that it was in Clash of Kings. It feels like its taking her a month to get from the kidnapping of the dragons to actually visiting the House of the Undying. That said, I did like Stannis and Davros, and Tyrion with everyone (excluding Shae).

1. This was the reveal that Tyrion WAS head over heels! Even Shae seemed surprised. Not everything in a TV show can have an elaborate build up. A lot of people simply expect too much. It's obvious that Tyrion was trying to hide/protect Shae and in this episode, we find out that he's in love with her.

2. So, you'd have rather Robb go off to the Crag and then come back married to some random girl? They couldn't have the duaghter of the enemy roaming around in Robbs camp. Even if it would have been that Jeyne was there to spy as people guessed, Robb would have been forced to execute her once he found out for providing intel to his enemies. This way, you get to see more with Robb, you get to see why he broke his oath and you get to see their love story. This will make future events hit even harder. The fact that Robb marries Jeyne has no consequence in the show/books at all. Talisa gives the audiance something to see in the show from Robb. The book barely had him in it at all.

3. Arya and Tywin gave screen time and insight to two important characters. Regardless of people thinking Arya some how "too innocent" in the show due to not killing a guard herself, She ordered the death of two men and was also responsible for the death of those guards. That alone shows she's capable to taking life. It shows the path she'd going down. I'm guessing they will use the "killing" part as a character arc once she gets to Braavos. They'll likely make her struggle with it. It's a time limited TV show. Would you honestly have rather them give screen time to a bunch of random characters like in the book? And on top of that, a lot of what you get in the book is inner monologue. Another writing device that doesn't work on screen.

4. I don't disagree that Dany's story is the weakest this season, but I appreciate that they tried. Martin really didn't do much with her in this book other than in the HoTU, so the writers on the show gave it more build up. All they did was try to spice up what they were given. Luckily, her story gets better going forward.

Taken for what it is, this is an awesome show. The best on TV right now, IMO. It's honestly sad that people that have read the books (well, a lot) can't just watch it for what it is. This is NOT the book series. It's an adaptation. Minor things will change a lot and very important things will change some too from time to time.. It happens. Stop watching it with a magnifying glass and a copy of the book in hand and you'll enjoy it much, much more. Otherwise, you might as well stop watching altogether and just re-read the books. I promise, nothing will have changed in those at all.

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So Stannis will attack in tow days and Tywin's army is still at Harrenhall and he wants to attack Robb's forces? How would Stannis be defeated at Blackwater? I really hope they won't have Tyrion defeats him only with the meagre forces he has in KL, this would be ridiculous, though given that they are doing their best to whitewahs Tyrion and turn him into a hero with no flaws, it wouldn't surprise me. No word on LF's negotiation with the Tyrells, which sucks, I was hoping we'd see how he arranged the alliance, they showed him in so many pointless scenes this season yet apparently skipped the really important ones.

Anyway, pretty good episode overall. Bu I am disappointed they didn't show how more of the interaction between Cat and Jaime - the vows, how Jaime was released and got out of the camp, etc. The scene between Robb and Cat should've been longer too, so much potential for drama there was largely wasted.

I really don't like Arya didn't have to kill anyone to get out of Harrenhal. This is a crucial part of her character deveopment, showing how ruthless and desensitized she has become because of all the violence she's witnessed at such an young age, and also showing how capable she is to deal with problems.

Stannis hates cats and likes dogs, figures, no wonder he's such a killjoy.

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He doesn't like cats that much. Hate is such a strong word that gets tossed around too easily. I share your worry about Tywin leaving Harrenhal too late... I just can't see how he's still going to make it to King's Landing. The most likely outcome is that the Tyrells will 'save the day' on their own, not something I'm looking forward to. As much as I applaud them going through such lengths in order to not have to skip this battle I fear it'll become the typical tv kind-of battle where the 'larger force' gets beaten through tactics and heroism rather than a stupid trick and overwhelming reinforcements.

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all in all it was a good episode.

love davos/stannis

we now have cool obsidian stuff

need some more jon snow and qhorin (really disapointed with qhorin's hair... a long braid it's like +100 badassery.)

about tywin, he probably owns a car or maybe can do magic like LF and appear out of nowere

Edited by AsoiafFTW!

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It might just be me, but I feel like Roose gives Talisa/Jeyne a knowing look every time he passes her when Robb can't see his face.

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I thought this was a great episode. My feeling was it put everything back more or less on track - Qhorin/Jon setup for the Jon/turncloak storyline; Bran/Rickon/Osha in the crypts; Theon/RAMSAY(!!); Jaime/Brienne. I didn't even mind Ros, but I'm trying to figure out why Cersei thinks she's Tyrion's girl. The only little thing bothering me now is Talisa, but even then I can see why they did it. They needed somebody for Robb to interact with as an equal, to be seen to be relaxed with and able to talk to. This gives Robb a way to be a more well rounded character and sets up the viewers to feel worse about the RW; she needs to be Volantene because if she were Westerosi there could be some kind of favoritism there. I just wish there were more Grey Wind. He really should be up Robb's nose more or less.

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Up until tonight, I really didn't pay attention to anyone theorizing that Dagmer was Ramsay. At all. But, it just seems like they're really endeavoring to prop the character of Dagmer up. He's almost in every scene with Theon. Granted, it's to give Theon someone to talk to, but, that aside. Maybe Roose had known Theon couldn't be trusted, and, as a backup plan, he decided to plant Ramsay on Pyke for Theon's homecoming?

Not a fan of Dagmer = Ramsay, but what if Ramsay sent Reek (Dagmer) to follow Robb and Theon south knowing the North would be ripe for the picking and then onto Pyke to convince Theon. Now all Reek(Dagmer) has to do is open the gates for Ramsay.

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Oh, and I was quite annoyed that Robb kept saying that the deal with the Freys was only "for a bridge" and ignored the 4000 soldiers he got out of it, every single one of which he desperately needs now. After they made a point at the start of the episode to show how Robb considers himself to be a really responsible lord caring for his subjects, ignoring this is quite hypocritical. Not marrying the Frey girl would not be just Robb breaking his word, it would mean losing a large part of his army at a time he really could not afford it and Robb knows that.

Robb and Talisa had the potential to be a good plotline, both of the actors are very good, they have decent chemistry together, and Oona Chaplin being gorgeous helps matters a lot, but the writing is just so bad their scenes remain mediocre at the best of times. Was anyone surprised even a little bit by the story of why Talisa became a medic? It's basically the same story we've all seen and read dozens of times. Every dialogue between those two is so predictable and follows the cliches so closely I can guess the next line basically word for word without even trying much.

Some positives - the Theon/Asha scene at the start was really good. Lena Headey's acting has improved by leaps and bounds since last season, her Cersei looks a lot more convincing to me now. Good to see Varys again.

Edited by David Selig

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Hm, I never realized the Volantenes had such a Rhoynish streak. Weren’t they the “first child of Old Valyria” or some such? Shouldn’t they be blond Andals? Not all people across the narrow sea have an olive complexion.

Or perhaps she isn’t really from there after all? Hm.

Please pardon me for asking such non-abusive questions in a thread dedicated to such, and coming to you unaccompanied by sack-cloth and ashes or the savage tearing out of my hair and eyes. We now therefore return you to your regularly scheduled hatefest about your personal suffering here at the end of the world and the worst of times.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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. It's honestly sad that people that have read the books (well, a lot) can't just watch it for what it is. This is NOT the book series. It's an adaptation. Minor things will change a lot and very important things will change some too from time to time.. It happens. Stop watching it with a magnifying glass and a copy of the book in hand and you'll enjoy it much, much more. Otherwise, you might as well stop watching altogether and just re-read the books. I promise, nothing will have changed in those at all.

How many folks had this complaint last season? Not as many as this season I gather . ..

They have changed the nature. I don't care about Talisa or Jeyne, I don't care about Ygritte have better teeth than I have in the 21st century, I don't care about Shae, I don't care about Bronn being head of the Gold Cloaks, or Melisandre being skinny and not curvylicious,

The reality is that when you have something so essential as the development of a relationship between Jon and the Halfhand, and something as essential as the black rage and utter despair of Robb and Cat after she hears that Bran and Rickon are slaughtered, you start to lose the nature of the story, the nature of the drama.

Halfhand's death will seem pointless as Jon is already questioning his vows to the watch thanks to some booty shaking by Ygritte (who looks flawless for a wilding woman), and it seems like Cat was just a selfish weasel. Not a mother who had nothing left, a dead husband, 2 dead children, and was all in for her girls . .. it harms the nature of the story.

I will admit and will take chastening for my whining earlier this month, you are correct, I need to read ACOK and shut up. But not this time, this was WRONG, this was GARBAGE, this had me furious because it makes the Starks look like selfish jerks.

Right now the Lannisters look more noble and trustworthy than the Starks . . .

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My only criticism of the episode was it was a bit slow, but that is always going to be the case when an episode is heavy with exposition that, for those of us who have read the books, is not necessary.

I'm watching it with someone who has never read a single page of ASOIAF, and they are absolutely loving the show.

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It's a time limited TV show. Would you honestly have rather them give screen time to a bunch of random characters like in the book? And on top of that, a lot of what you get in the book is inner monologue. Another writing device that doesn't work on screen. ... Taken for what it is, this is an awesome show. The best on TV right now, IMO. It's honestly sad that people that have read the books (well, a lot) can't just watch it for what it is. This is NOT the book series. It's an adaptation. Minor things will change a lot and very important things will change some too from time to time.. It happens. Stop watching it with a magnifying glass and a copy of the book in hand and you'll enjoy it much, much more. Otherwise, you might as well stop watching altogether and just re-read the books. I promise, nothing will have changed in those at all.

Excellently well put!

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Oh.. and the Tyrion/Varys stuff was great! I love how Varys gives just enough info about Dany to make himself look like an informant, but discredits her as being so far away and insignificant to the game.

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My only criticism of the episode was it was a bit slow, but that is always going to be the case when an episode is heavy with exposition that, for those of us who have read the books, is not necessary. I'm watching it with someone who has never read a single page of ASOIAF, and they are absolutely loving the show.

It’s truly remarkable for how many the experience of having read the books has made watching the show a source for such pathetic misery and abject despair, dead ashes in their mouths instead of the joy that everyone else gets from it.

Smells like misplaced self-importance and childish self-entitlement to me. Why people continue to masochistically watch something that gives them so much hatred and anger and revulsion, I will never, ever come to understand. Like the doctor says, if it hurts so fucking much when you do that, don’t fucking do that. Duh!

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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Seems like opinions regarding the show have diverged here a bit in the last several weeks. Allow me to throw in my own two cents.

1. Robb+Talisa/Jeyne- I was sure she wold turn out to be Jeyne Westerling when she was hesitant to go to the Crag, I'm less certain about that now. But either way, I disagree with all those who call this romance 'useless.' Jeyne Westerling was never more than a plot device, to get Robb to break his pact with Walder Frey, and eventually set up the Red Wedding. Whether she is Jeyne Westerling, or some random Volantene girl, the effect of her and Robb's whirlwind romance/marriage is the same: Frey is pissed, and Bolton see's a chance to move up in the world. Their romance isn't the most interesting thing on the show; but I don't disagree with the showrunners on this one. Robb can't disappear for an entire season- from a storytelling point of view (too long of a hiatus for fans to keep up interest), and from a production point of view (if Madden walks and gets another job, you might not get him back).

2. Arya at Herrenhal- I've liked these bits all season. I once again agree, mostly, with the decisions the producers have made. Having Harrenhal change hands as often as it did in the books would confuse fans- it confused me a bit my first read through. Also, without the Bloody Mummers its kind of impossible to work in the whole weasel soup/double-cross. Lorch was bound for the grave anyways, and Gregor Clegane isn't very well going to betray the Lannisters. The thing about the weasel soup episode, if I'm not mistaken, was that Arya's plan was just kind of icing on the cake. Hoat was already going to give Harrenhal to Bolton (of course, speculation abounds as to whether this was all part of Tywin's plans to set the Red Wedding in motion; it might very well have been his first move in that gambit. IIRC, not long after Bolton takes the castle, Arya overhears the Frey prisoners arguing- over whether or not to get on board the Tywin Train). With so many characters out, it would have been impossible to really recreate the book's plot there. But think about it- Jacquen killing multiple guards serves as a 'weasel soup' of sorts (Arya's last name resulting in multiple deaths of unsuspecting guards); and just because she didn't kill anyone on the way out doesn't mean that she can't slit some poor SOB's throat in episode 9, or 10, and whisper "valar morghulis" as he slips to the ground. I think Maise Williams is a fantastic Arya, and I'm ok with how her story is moving along.

Theon!- I think Theon's story in the north is being executed perfectly. Others have said, and I agree, that this was the first time I ever really liked Yara in a scene. She hasn't lived up to the Asha in my mind, but that character only started to become more interesting to me after aCoK anyways. I actually very much enjoyed her chapters in aDwD; call me crazy, but I rather enjoy the whole Iron Born subplot. I'm interested in how Leuwin knowing for certain that Bran and Rickon are alive changes things, but it I think its relatively minor. Indeed, it might turn his unfortunate death into a more noble sacrifice for the little lords. I think speculation that at least one, if not both, Reeds will show up next season is probably correct. The meeting can be done in a number of believable ways, and keeps the story moving on the right track (splitting up Bran and Rickon, destinations, etc.). The fact that Rickon gets so little screen time now is a good thing, in that if he become important several seasons down the line, they can pretty much recast that character as soon as he and Bran are split- unless they plan on showing some of those formerly offscreen adventures. OTOH, the actress playing Osha is said to be a favorite of the showrunners, so they may be juggling who escorts who where. Which might result in Leuwin being left alive to take Rickon.

Tyrion- I've liked his bits this season, too. Its obvious they've streamlined quite a bit (I was mildly disappointed that we don't get as much a sense of Tyrion's personal force of crazy mountain tribespeople; also, not nearly enough Pod, who like Rickon perhaps is being kept anonymous because of a need for future recasting). But, I think the cuts have been mostly good, and they work. I'm surprised they cut the chain, as that seems the easiest bit of the Blackwater to leave in- but Tyrion's masterful defense of King's Landing was the result of more than just one idea. He made several key decisions; as long as enough of them are in the mix, it's his victory.

Jon Snow- Another bit where I've agreed with the changes. I would have preferred the Fist be in the woods, not on a mountain top, but thats nitpicking, IMO. I think the stuff at Craster's, and the changes made with Jon+Ygritte+Qhorin appear to be getting us to the same place. Qhorin has set Jon up to kill him, and go undercover with the Free Folk. It even creates a nice parallel with Jon's earlier inability to do what needed to be done.

Danny- Her's is the story I've been most underwhelmed by; but I don't think its the showrunner's fault. Danny does nothing in Qarth in the books, besides asking for aid from every faction in town, and being turned down by each. The HotU serves as the catalyst to get her on the move. I fully understand why the changes that were made were necessary. How much additional time would it have taken to set up and explain: the pure-born, each of the 3 merchant guilds, Xaro's place as a leader in one of those guilds, the guilds' continuous conflict among themselves, and with the pure-born, and the warlock's and their part in the ongoing petrification of Qarth. Too much, its all too complicated for what amounts to the B (or even C) plot of the book. So the fact that Danny's story has been unfamiliar, and not up to the same quality as the rest of the plots, is not surprising. I'm not worried, though- she still is going to go to the HotU, will still likely burn it down (only she'll mean it this time!), and will still likely have to leave the city quite quickly afterwards. Enter Arstan Whitebeard, talk about a ship sent by Illyrio, and scene. She still goes to Astapor next season, and does her thing in Slaver's Bay. It will be interesting to see if Mereen, where Danny does do quite a bit, will translate better than Qarth.

Wheh, that was long. Any thoughts?

EDIT: Oh, I forgot Sansa. Her story has tracked the book pretty closely. I will say I'm somewhat surprised/disappointed that Ser Dontos has been basically ignored since she saved him from his Ironic Death. Her's is another story that I think will pick up steam once she marries Tyrion, and the Tyrells show up. I suppose that maybe they've delayed the note, and plans to escape, might be due to a desire to make it clear that the entire operation is Littlefinger's. As far as Sansa's story is concerned, as long as they get one of my favorite lines in, I'll be happy : LF telling Sansa to get the guards after pusing Lysa out the Moon Door- "This singer's just killed my wife." Delicious.

Edited by AegonTheUnlikely

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Jeyne Westerling was never more than a plot device, to get Robb to break his pact with Walder Frey, and eventually set up the Red Wedding. Whether she is Jeyne Westerling, or some random Volantene girl, the effect of her and Robb's whirlwind romance/marriage is the same: Frey is pissed, and Bolton see's a chance to move up in the world.

You make a lot of good points, but this is one that other people have made and that I really disagree with. It makes a huge difference in how people see Robb, and whether she is Jeyne Westerling in the books or Talisa as written in the show or even Talisa who turns out to be Jeyne says very different things about who he is as a person and how we see his decision to marry her.

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Danny- Hers is the story I've been most underwhelmed by; but I don't think its the showrunner's fault. Danny does nothing in Qarth in the books, besides asking for aid from every faction in town, and being turned down by each. The House of the Undying serves as the catalyst to get her on the move. I fully understand why the changes that were made were necessary. How much additional time would it have taken to set up and explain: the pure-born, each of the 3 merchant guilds, Xaro's place as a leader in one of those guilds, the guilds' continuous conflict among themselves, and with the pure-born, and the warlock's and their part in the ongoing petrification of Qarth. Too much, its all too complicated for what amounts to the B (or even C) plot of the book. So the fact that Danny's story has been unfamiliar, and not up to the same quality as the rest of the plots, is not surprising. I'm not worried, though- she still is going to go to the House of the Undying, will still likely burn it down (only she'll mean it this time!), and will still likely have to leave the city quite quickly afterwards. Enter Arstan Whitebeard, talk about a ship sent by Illyrio, and scene. She still goes to Astapor next season, and does her thing in Slaver's Bay. It will be interesting to see if Mereen, where Danny does do quite a bit, will translate better than Qarth. Wheh, that was long. Any thoughts?

Agree that Dany’s plodding ineffectiveness at her begging in Qarth accurately reflects how she was in the book. She is unwittingly recreating her brother’s sad tale that earned him the name of the Beggar King.

The change in Xaro is intriguing; I want to know what they are trying to do with him. He’s now black instead of gay, and more importantly, he is now involved in this plot to take her dragons from her and to become “King of Quarth”. How come he let all of his own men get killed?

Why take the dragonlings only to give them back? Seems like a strange way to go about it. The warlocks didn’t think they could get her to come visit the House of the Undying to have their vampires suck out her lifeblood without the lure of her stolen dragons? Really?

And what is Chekov’s Treasure Vault all about, eh? What is the form that Xaro’s comeuppance will take? Or are the showwriters intent on following Martin’s lead in which people don’t get their comeuppance, because life isn’t about justice?

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Anyone else want to see a show where Bronn, Tyrion, and Varys drive around the country in a van solving mysteries? Anyone? Because I would pay cash money for that.

Yes! Please, please, please! And if we could throw in Little Finger and Jaime along the way to further prod them, it would be wonderful. I call all of the Varys/Littlefinger scenes in Season 1 "dick-offs" as they're both trying to be ever so dickish (but in the politest way) to each other.

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1. This was the reveal that Tyrion WAS head over heels! Even Shae seemed surprised. Not everything in a TV show can have an elaborate build up. A lot of people simply expect too much. It's obvious that Tyrion was trying to hide/protect Shae and in this episode, we find out that he's in love with her. 2. So, you'd have rather Robb go off to the Crag and then come back married to some random girl? They couldn't have the duaghter of the enemy roaming around in Robbs camp. Even if it would have been that Jeyne was there to spy as people guessed, Robb would have been forced to execute her once he found out for providing intel to his enemies. This way, you get to see more with Robb, you get to see why he broke his oath and you get to see their love story. This will make future events hit even harder. The fact that Robb marries Jeyne has no consequence in the show/books at all. Talisa gives the audiance something to see in the show from Robb. The book barely had him in it at all. 3. Arya and Tywin gave screen time and insight to two important characters. Regardless of people thinking Arya some how "too innocent" in the show due to not killing a guard herself, She ordered the death of two men and was also responsible for the death of those guards. That alone shows she's capable to taking life. It shows the path she'd going down. I'm guessing they will use the "killing" part as a character arc once she gets to Braavos. They'll likely make her struggle with it. It's a time limited TV show. Would you honestly have rather them give screen time to a bunch of random characters like in the book? And on top of that, a lot of what you get in the book is inner monologue. Another writing device that doesn't work on screen. 4. I don't disagree that Dany's story is the weakest this season, but I appreciate that they tried. Martin really didn't do much with her in this book other than in the HoTU, so the writers on the show gave it more build up. All they did was try to spice up what they were given. Luckily, her story gets better going forward. Taken for what it is, this is an awesome show. The best on TV right now, IMO. It's honestly sad that people that have read the books (well, a lot) can't just watch it for what it is. This is NOT the book series. It's an adaptation. Minor things will change a lot and very important things will change some too from time to time.. It happens. Stop watching it with a magnifying glass and a copy of the book in hand and you'll enjoy it much, much more. Otherwise, you might as well stop watching altogether and just re-read the books. I promise, nothing will have changed in those at all.

I think you are missing the criticism. It isn't that change is bad. Its the quality of the changes that's the problem. This is a we will have to be an agree to disagree arguement. This is hardly the best tv show on right now. Yes - It might be the most ambitious, but the quality of writing and plotting is mixed at best. And we all realize its an adaption which will necessitate changes. In fact, when they do it well, I think they deserve tonnes of credit (i.e. Theon's execution of Roderick). When its done poorly or not thought through, they can be called out.

Tywin and Arya is annoying, because there is no payoff. Its a great concept, with a some great moments, but its pointless because of the lack of payoff.

Shae fails, because the writing never established the importance of the relationship to Tyrion before the scene with Cersei. Or a single scene that redeems Shae as a character. They attempted last week with her coming to the defence of Sansa, but that felt trite to me.

Talisa and Robb is boring. That's the problem. It not that they changed anything, but the change itself is boring. Replace Talisa with Jeyne Westerling and retain the same scenes and dialouge and it still would suck.

I know good dramatic and comedic writing when I see it and this season has unfortunately lots of bad writing and plotting.

Edited by pleonasm

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