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[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion

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Rattleshirt was sooo much better in the show than in the book imo. He looked scary and mean. This episode was perfect!

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Lol. What I really think it boils down to is the creators not having enough time to bring the story to life.

True, but if they had not bothered to have so much "Robb" time, which he gets none in the books whatsoever, maybe we have much more time for everyone else. Think of it: they have a mere ten ep.s for this massive book and they give Robb his own set of scenes, plus this new made up chick and her own story line. Why? It adds nothing to the overall series and he of all the characters changes the least of any. I'm sure it's why GRRM never gave him his own POVs. He stays the same more or less, despite his actions being pivotal to the stories of all the other characters.

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Oh it’s workable, all right: Roose is supposed to look ridiculously young for his age, whereas Ramsey is supposed to look rather older than his age. Remember when Asha finally finds Theon again, she thinks he’s an old man. Clean living versus self-(or otherwise)abuse makes a huge real-world difference in perceived ages.

I really don't think it's workable. That is to much of a stretch. Unless your turned into Reek like Theon was, "dirty living" is not going to age you twenty years. For psychopaths like Ramsey, what he does, does not bother him. So it's not like the stress of being a sadistic killer has made him age poorly, and there is no Westerosi equivalent to meth or crack cocaine, so I don't see Ramsey looking that much older than he really is.

And Roose doesn't look ridiculously young for his age, he just has an "agelessness about him", and even though he has been in battle, he has no scars.

I also don't remember the books saying anywhere that Ramsey looks older than he really is.

Not to mention the other problems I pointed out for this theory, in my last post.

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didn't miss weasel soup one bit, I'd forgotten about it in the books anyway

still not concerned about them getting rid of the chain, sure it was used a few real battles mostly across small rivers, this is blockading a whole harbor, it would have to be on the size of the three gorges damn in china, it just seem implausible

great to see the dragonglass, and rattle shirt, amazing shots in iceland!

Talisa/Jeyne impressed me this week, her acting/writing has been rather thin nice to see her character fleshed out (bad pun) remember her character is just the reason for the Frey's to revolt later, whether she is a spy or not doesn't matter much, when we know whats in store for Robb

Shae on the other hand is just such a vacuum when on screen, the show loses so much momentum, just waiting for the crossbow scene…

looking fwd to the rest of the season its gone by so fast!

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I don't know if this has been talked about but I wasn't too happy with Luwin finding boys in the crypt. I just remember how powerful the scene in the book was, when Luwin finds the boys alive as he is about to die.

I agree, but I am glad that he knows that they are alive. In the book the boys go immediately to the crypts and not to that farm right? I thought the series would just have them go to the farm and keep venturing on, not including the part where Luwin sees them when Winterfell is burned down and he is dying.

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Why do people still think Dagmer is Ramsay? We've now heard at least twice how Ramsay is traveling north with a force to retake Winterfell. Roose didnt tell Robb "My son is at winterfell wating to strike".

Jeyne/Talisa doesnt bother me. Minor characters with irrelevent backstory. We all know what happens soon anyways......

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First Impression:

I can't believe how negative I am about this episode. I have never scored any of them below a 6/10 (and my average score is like in the high 8's), this was a 4/10 and that may be generous. I am hoping I realize I am wrong after a second watching.

Rattleshirt scene was ok, though he looked a bit cartoonish for the show. The scene was fine though. The Quorin/Jon setup was adequate, though only because I like what is coming. This storyline was basically wasted material this week. Where the hell is Ghost?

Robb and Catelyn was excellent. One of two scenes worth watching. Sadly it led to Robb and not-Jeyne: For the first time in 18 episodes, i found myself wondering where my smartphone was so I could play a round of Draw Something while watching an episode. Boring beyond belief. I realize we haven't had sex on screen for a bit and HBO was probably going to fire people if a nipple wasn't seen soon; however this was so forced anf generic, I was reminded of The Matrix 2.

Cersei and Tyrion was just more of the same, and I'm tired of it now. This is probably hurt by the fact I knew it would be Roz, and I don't care what happens to Roz. Not that I cared what happened to Shea in the books, either. Tyrion's reunion with Shae was forced and flat.

Tyrion and Varys is the only other (Robb/Catelyn) thing wirth watxhing in this episode. Good enough scene. I am expecting the people who were holding out hope for a miracle chain scene disagree.

Sam, Grenn and DE worked but really seemed thrown in randomly.

I think there was a Dany/Jorah scene. I seriously can't remember it. I'm pretty sure she ordered him to go get her dragons last week. Why is he still there? Complete waste of time.

Stannis/Davos was fine, though unremarkable. Compared to most of the rest of this episode, it was a pleasant relief from the drudgery.

What an awful (on the GoT scale) episode.

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LOL! So true. He looks like he's going to burst into tears at any moment. So far Sam would have done a better job. He might have tripped trying to swing the sword and accidentally crushed Ygritte.

haha, they are definitely getting the EMO vibe across for Jon Snow. They made him beg the Halfhand to go along and then he goes from blunder to blunder after they left the Fist. The producers couldn't even give him the one kill he got on the watchers before he captured Ygritte, poor Snow. Loses his team, loses his prisoner, gets suckered into a trap, gets made a prisoner by his former prisoner, all the while getting dressed down like a proper virgin in every conversation with Ygritte.

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Haters gonna hate, lovers gonna love, and ne’er the twain do meet.

you are the worst troll ever. at least try......

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Why do people still think Dagmer is Ramsay?

For several possible reasons not often mentioned:

  • One is that they don’t believe Ralph Ineson would be cast for a merely third- or even fourth-tier villain like Cleftjaw rather than for a second-tier one like Ramsey. It’s a lot of money and acting chops for somebody who’s bound to go away really soon. The only possible reason is because he’s been given a lot of Ramsey’s plot points — which he quite obviously has — even without being that person. It might be another Osha-née-Meera thing.
  • Another is that Theon didn’t recognize his old teacher, Cleftjaw. That’s really rather weird.
  • One more minor one is that Dagmer’s jaw isn’t even cloven, although this isn’t a very strong motivator; I doubt we’ll see Tyrion lose his nose nor any other important limb or member.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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First Impression:

I can't believe how negative I am about this episode. I have never scored any of them below a 6/10 (and my average score is like in the high 8's), this was a 4/10 and that may be generous. I am hoping I realize I am wrong after a second watching.

Rattleshirt scene was ok, though he looked a bit cartoonish for the show. The scene was fine though. The Quorin/Jon setup was adequate, though only because I like what is coming. This storyline was basically wasted material this week. Where the hell is Ghost?

Robb and Catelyn was excellent. One of two scenes worth watching. Sadly it led to Robb and not-Jeyne: For the first time in 18 episodes, i found myself wondering where my smartphone was so I could play a round of Draw Something while watching an episode. Boring beyond belief. I realize we haven't had sex on screen for a bit and HBO was probably going to fire people if a nipple wasn't seen soon; however this was so forced anf generic, I was reminded of The Matrix 2.

Cersei and Tyrion was just more of the same, and I'm tired of it now. This is probably hurt by the fact I knew it would be Roz, and I don't care what happens to Roz. Not that I cared what happened to Shea in the books, either. Tyrion's reunion with Shae was forced and flat.

Tyrion and Varys is the only other (Robb/Catelyn) thing wirth watxhing in this episode. Good enough scene. I am expecting the people who were holding out hope for a miracle chain scene disagree.

Sam, Grenn and DE worked but really seemed thrown in randomly.

I think there was a Dany/Jorah scene. I seriously can't remember it. I'm pretty sure she ordered him to go get her dragons last week. Why is he still there? Complete waste of time.

Stannis/Davos was fine, though unremarkable. Compared to most of the rest of this episode, it was a pleasant relief from the drudgery.

What an awful (on the GoT scale) episode.

I don't see how anybody can think any of the episodes are boring. Most people call me a purist(even though I have like many of the changes, as long as they are done well), and even if I wish the show was more true to the book, I would never say any of the episodes are boring. No matter what, source material aside, it's still a good show. I watch every episode three times, and I have done the same with this episode, and not one episode on any of my rewatches, has ever been boring(and I have seen a lot of the episodes even more than three times).

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At this point, I almost hope that Dagmer=Ramsey....just so I can watch the internets explode with the intensity of a thousand suns.....

Edited by Lannes

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For several possible reasons not often mentioned:

  • One is that they don’t believe Ralph Ineson would be cast for a merely third- or even fourth-tier villain like Cleftjaw rather than for a second-tier one like Ramsey. It’s a lot of money and acting chops for somebody who’s bound to go away really soon. The only possible reason is because he’s been given a lot of Ramsey’s plot points — which he quite obviously has — even without being that person. It might be another Osha-née-Meera thing.
  • Another is that Theon didn’t recognize his old teacher, Cleftjaw. That’s really rather weird.
  • One more minor one is that Dagmer’s jaw isn’t even cloven, although this isn’t a very strong motivator; I doubt we’ll see Tyrion lose his nose nor any other important limb or member.

Ok, your post explains why the idea might pop into some people's heads, that Dagmer is Ramsey, but it does not explain why people would continue to believe that, if they actually gave it some real thought.

How is it possible for Dagmer to be Ramsey, he looks almost older than Roose, at minimum, way to old to be Roose's son. Why would he be on the Iron Islands? How would he know Theon would turn his cloak? How would the other Ironborn not know him for false, I mean Theon spent most of his adult life in Winterfell, so it might be understandable that he doesn't see Dagmer as a false Iron Islander, but how would Ramsey fool everyone else? The list literally goes on...

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First Impression: I can't believe how negative I am about this episode. I have never scored any of them below a 6/10 (and my average score is like in the high 8's), this was a 4/10 and that may be generous. I am hoping I realize I am wrong after a second watching. Rattleshirt scene was ok, though he looked a bit cartoonish for the show. The scene was fine though. The Quorin/Jon setup was adequate, though only because I like what is coming. This storyline was basically wasted material this week. Where the hell is Ghost? Robb and Catelyn was excellent. One of two scenes worth watching. Sadly it led to Robb and not-Jeyne: For the first time in 18 episodes, i found myself wondering where my smartphone was so I could play a round of Draw Something while watching an episode. Boring beyond belief. I realize we haven't had sex on screen for a bit and HBO was probably going to fire people if a nipple wasn't seen soon; however this was so forced anf generic, I was reminded of The Matrix 2. Cersei and Tyrion was just more of the same, and I'm tired of it now. This is probably hurt by the fact I knew it would be Roz, and I don't care what happens to Roz. Not that I cared what happened to Shea in the books, either. Tyrion's reunion with Shae was forced and flat. Tyrion and Varys is the only other (Robb/Catelyn) thing wirth watxhing in this episode. Good enough scene. I am expecting the people who were holding out hope for a miracle chain scene disagree. Sam, Grenn and DE worked but really seemed thrown in randomly. I think there was a Dany/Jorah scene. I seriously can't remember it. I'm pretty sure she ordered him to go get her dragons last week. Why is he still there? Complete waste of time. Stannis/Davos was fine, though unremarkable. Compared to most of the rest of this episode, it was a pleasant relief from the drudgery. What an awful (on the GoT scale) episode.

I couldn't agree more. You really hit the nail on the head. I also found myself wanting to do something else, besides watch the show. I started checking my email, etc. This is the first time in all 18 episodes that I completely lost interest. I also watch the show with some friends each week. (All which are non-readers) A few of them said that they do not think they want to keep investing in the show.

The first season was so amazing, and this season has really derailed. HBO focuses on unimportant scenes, and leaves out exciting moments from the book. ??? I feel like every episodes is the same thing, and very little happens. I find that I am not emotionally invested in the characters this season. The season is very rushed and disjointed. I really want the show to stay on the air, but the books only get MORE involved and much more complex. If HBO doesn't start formatting the show differently, I do not think they are going to be able to hold a fan base beyond the loyal readers.

This is just my opinion, and I do not want to upset anyone. :blushing:

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Sure wish folks would try unravelling show-Xaro and Dany-Aerys’s certain revenge upon him for betraying her babies, and what possible rôle Chekov’s Treasure Vault will play in Dany’s broader multi-season plot arc. Pretty sure this all has to go down in S2E10, not later.

But S2E10 has to have a whole series’ worth of critical denoument points in it, including:

  • Tyrion’s narrowly surviving Ser Mandon Moore’s perfidy, and subsequent loss of Handship
  • Stannis’s retreat to Dragonstone and reunion with the Red Witch
  • Davos’s rescue from the rocks and imprisonment
  • the combined return of Tywin victorious, along with the two widowed Tyrells siblings
  • Sandor’s fugue
  • the breaking-up of Bran and Rickon with their appointed guardians, probably Osha+Hodor vs the surprisingly surviving (but surely not sempervirent) Maester Luwin

I don’t really see Chekov’s Treasure Vault as denouement, but maybe. Same with Jaqen’s guaranteed shapechange and gift of coin to Arya. Do Robb and that woman get some sort of denouement? What about Jaime and Brienne? And what of Harrenhall?

Colour me méfiant, but that’s a lot of denouement to still fit in key non-denouement parts like

  • the sack of Winterfell — but at whose hand, at whose hand?
  • and of course Dany’s grand Casa de los Vampiros conflagration.

Will Barristan really still rescue Dany from the manticore so that they can all of them sail off into the sunset together? I really can’t see how they can possibly fit this in yet this season.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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