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[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion

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What's holding me back from the Dagmar = Ramsay theory is that he is hanging around the Iron Islands when we first encounter him

I don't know how they can contort Dagmar's presence at Pyke into something not ridiculous - realistically he wouldn't just be 'at Pyke', nor would he have known that the Greyjoys were orchestrating attacks against the North (and subsequently iravel from the Dreadfort to Pyke in time to fuck shit up)

Considering some of the changes made for the show, my guess is that Ramsay will take Winterfell sans the Reek impersonation

edit: grammar

Edited by istari

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I hope you're right! I was just thinking about the Dagmar=Ramsay theory and all of a sudden it all started to make sense to me. But I would rather Dagmar wasn't Ramsay in the end.

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Oh, Christ, please stop! He IS NOT Ramsay! Seven hells on the dude who started this :( Roose even said it again this episode "my bastard is close and blablabla" and also, there are no crows left at Winterfell, do you think this is freaking Harry Potter so that he could send, i dunno, a bloody magical buttefly to his Dagsay? Jesus.

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Oh, Christ, please stop! He IS NOT Ramsay! Seven hells on the dude who started this :( Roose even said it again this episode "my bastard is close and blablabla" and also, there are no crows left at Winterfell, do you think this is freaking Harry Potter so that he could send, i dunno, a bloody magical buttefly to his Dagsay? Jesus.

I agree.

Balon Greyjoy went through a lot of trouble to make sure nobody could leave the Iron Islands once they got there, because he didn't want anybody to know he was gathering his forces for an attack. Yet people just think Ramsey happened to be there, knowing that Balon would attack, and knowing that Theon would turn his cloak.... Yeah, I am not buying it. How would Ramsey know to be there?

Dagmer is Theon's first mate, So if he is Ramsey, how are we to believe that all these other Ironborn would take orders from some guy they have never met or heard of? Furthermore, how would the other Ironborn with Theon not notice someone who is not Ironborn, surely they would be able to tell? Theon doesn't completely act Ironborn, but everyone knows him as Balon's son and Asha/Yara's brother, so it's not a problem. That's not the case with Dagmer.

Also, Dagmer is in his 40's, and he looks it. Roose is also in his mid to late 40's in the books, but even if they make him a little older for the show, at most, he can't be much over 50. So are we to believe that Roose had Ramsey when he was 7-10 years old??? Come on people.

So not only would it not make sense for Ramsey to be Dagmer, but it would also be a huge let down, because nothing about Dagmer screams the evilness that should be Ramsey. If Dagmer ends up being Ramsey, then that physical and mental portrayal of Ramsey might even be worse than the physical and mental portrayal of Asha, that we get from this Yara. Yara has been my biggest disappointment of the whole season, she is all wrong for Asha, so for me to say that Dagmer being Ramsey might be worse, that's saying something.

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All I can say is the preview for episode 19 was epic. I really hope they make the Battle of Blackwater epic.

The only question that remains is...WILL THERE BE A CHAIN!? Seriously, the whole time Tyrion and Varys were talking while looking out at the sea all I could think was how awesome it would be to see a big chain hanging from one wall to the other across the channel. The way the scene was shot almost seemed like they were hinting at it. They kept using angles on either side of Tyrion and Varys, clearly showing the narrow channel between the city. Also, I thought for sure Tyrion was going to mention the chain when Bronn and Him were sitting inside and Tyrion was reading war books. When Varys asked Tyrion what they have got to defend mud gate once Stannis arrives Tyrion looks at Bronn and says "Pig shit". Is this suppose to be a hint at the chain?

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Well I believe that no way that, while Dagmer has no chance of being Ramsay, that he will have an active part in the sack of winterfell, probably opening the gates to ramsay or something like that. It would be a nice scene for somewhere near the end of episode 10. It would still be along the lines of "Theon is responsible for his own downfall for trusting visibly evil people", and would be a nice way to NOT show Ramsay while still letting him be known by the audience, letting him be cast only later, probably in season 4-5.

As for the Reeds, it sads my heart but that scene where the Meister met with Osha practically sealed their faiths as never appearing in the show for me. They will probably replace them both by Osha (since she already replaced Jojen in an earlier scene) and have the Meister leave with Rickon, never to be seen again. Probably the saddest part missing from the books, since the Reeds are among my (and many others) favorites, including Howland, that has yet to appear but is already a great character.

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I think this was a good episode, one that had a purpose to set up next weeks sure to be a Blockbuster episode.

Im impartial on the Robb stuff, he was a background character in the books and i understand why the producers wanted him to have screen time with the Starks being the most popular house. So let them have there cliche romance and i dont care they changed Jeyne either.

Good to see all the stuff North of the Wall is going in the prescribed location so im happy with that. The scenes in Kings Landing were amazing, i always loved the Joy to Ashes quote :). I would love to see Stannis put a smile on Joff's face.

Alas young Arya, i would have loved to see the Weasel Soup go down but time is short and they need to get her story moving forward instead of setting up new characters, having the northmen captured ect. ect. Im learning to enjoy the show without crying about stuff they missed in the book its a good stand alone.

Qarthian Quicky, Jorah pulled a dagger on Dany as she brushed his cheek poor bear.

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Just a side note...

I wonder what the Vegas odds were that after 8 episodes in we wouldn't have seen Emilia Clark (Dannerys), or Esme Bianco (Ros) naked?

I would have lost my house.

Your post had me worried that all the trolls were going to start posting the bs about how "Emilia Clarke had a no nudity clause put into her contract for season two". Thankfully, so far there has not been any of them yet, because they are getting old.

Has Ros really not been nude in any of the episodes for season two? She has been in so many pointless scenes, I would have thought she would have been naked for some of them. Not that I am complaining.

I am a bit confused by your post though, you kind of make it sound like its a good thing Emilia Clarke has not been in any nude scenes this season. I could careless with Ros, but I am all for any nude Dany scenes, I mean come on, it's Emilia Clarke....

Its funny though, it does seem like Emilia Clarke was nude in a lot of episodes for season one, but if I am not mistaken, she was only actually nude in three different episodes. She just had quite a bit of nude scenes for the first episode, but all her nude scenes actually had a point. They were actually pretty important to the scene, to show what Daenerys had to go through. With Ros, not so much.

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Remember that interview with the actor who portrays Renly, Gethin Anthony, when he said that the horses were tough to deal with? He said how you only saw people on horseback, not getting on nor especially getting off, because it was always an unfilmably clumsy/embarrassing ordeal requiring a lot of help? Well, we’ve now seen Charles Dance’s Tywin doing both things. We saw him dismounting his horse when he first got to Harrenhall, and now we’ve seen him mounting one two. I thought his moves looked completely natural both times. I was especially impressed with his arrival, when he dismounted like a real trooper. Which I suppose is just what he is. A real veteran, and a true actor. He’s done all this before, many many times, and it shows. Bravo! Some things you just can’t fake convincingly. Charles Dance is Tywin Lannister. And we have two more seasons of him. Can’t wait!

I found the deer skinning scene! It was in GoT and was actually Randall Tarly explaining Samwell's new found desire to serve the Wall. It worked for Tywin talking to Jaime too.

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I agree. The writers have some extra information from GRRM, so when they had them find the horn under some old school First Men rock carvings, I definitely got the idea that it was important. I have always thought that horn was the horn of Joramun, and after seeing that scene, it only furthered my belief. In the books, it's less dramatic, with more of an emphasis on who put it there(Coldhands). In the show, they said it had been there for a long time etc, and with the First Men rock carvings, there was more of an emphasis on the importance of what was in that cache(the horn). So I definitely think that was the horn of Joramun, and they wanted to make it seem more important, so people would remember it for later. In the books, the horn was full of dirt, and it was old and cracked, unable to make sound. I could be wrong, but in the show the horn looked old, but clean and well kept, not broken at all.

It was broken and worthless and consigned to an upcycled life as a drinking horn.

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One person's "nitpick" over "trivia" is another person's criticism about cliched writing or internal inconsistencies with the changes that were made if you're going to make them. . . .

That being said, liked Yara better in this episdoe. She's looking like her father rather than the character in the book's description. It works on TV. Liked her dialogue, including her very brief moment of sentimentality, couched, as it was, in a tale of a colicky baby she wanted to strangle. But before that she was pretty clear why even she would wash her hands of him.

LOL moments with Tyrion and Varys, Tyrion and Bronn, and the three of them together. Thank goodness it didn't get campy or sitcom-y.

Liked Stannis' monologue. I generally like the Stannis character and his motivation (he has the better claim), except for killing his own brother.

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Even if it hadn't been for Lord Frey marrying such a small house would have been stupid. Marrying Asha in exchange for the North and support to get her on the throne of Pyke, on the other hand... Now there's a killer move. Shame Robb, such a shame! So a fool he is, but a 15-year old fool who had a lot (far too many) burdens to carry at that and still did admirably at least on the field of battle, of course.

Wow. I never thought about marriage scenario with Asha, but you're spot on there, THAT would've been a killer move! And I do like show's Asha/Yara so it would've been great to see them interact as a married couple.

I don't think Balon would have been happy because he seems like a guy he wants thing to be done HIS way even though result might be the same (having offspring as a king/queen). But having ironborn as a queen in the north and then her children as King/princes/princesses - that sounds awesome and like a dream come true for ironborns. And think if Asha would have fought with Robb instead of against him! Gaaah, missed opportunities!

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¿Cómo? You no speaka me linguage, hombre!
\

one never knows if a joke has FAILED because the writer made too large of a leap, the joke wasnt funny or the reader is messing with ye

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My guess is it's Lancel that tries to kill Tyrion next ep rather than a kingsguard. I think I saw a shot of him fighting in the preview. I still think Bronn is going to die too.

This season is driving me nuts:

Episode 6:

Qhorin: Tell me true, if your people captured me, would they take me prisoner?

Ygritte: They'd take your head off your shoulders if they was feeling kind, if not they'd kill you slow.

WTF show? So Ygritte was just lying there for absolutely no reason?

In the early parts of the season the show dances around Davos' backstory. I thought this was because they wanted to avoid a clunky exposition scene, since Davos mostly talks to Stannis and Stannis has no need to explain to Davos what Davos did in the rebellion. But no, they just wanted to make it a mystery for some reason, waste lots of time dancing around it, and then have a long exposition scene about it in episode 8.

They actually give Cat a good reason for letting Jaime go instead of doing it out of irrational but understandable grief. Then she forgets that she has a good reason when Robb wants to know why she did it.

One of the most intelligent characters in the show is shown cramming for the battle that he had to know was coming all season like a frat boy who was stoned all semester cramming for finals. Seriously, why the lack of building any tension all season towards what is hopefully going to be the most epic hour of television in quite some time? No matter how good it is it can't repair the damage done by the lack of build up to it as far as the season goes.

The only tension there has been all season has been between Arya and Tywin, and they just deflated that balloon. I am sure there is going to be some pay off to that eventually, but GEEZ! I hate the fact that Arya doesn't have to kill a guard to get out of there, but maybe she'll have a kill in ep 10 before meeting up with Jaqen.

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It was broken and worthless and consigned to an upcycled life as a drinking horn.

I am not sure what your trying to say here, are you saying that about the horn in the books, or in the show? Because in the show, the horn did not look broken and worthless, and in the book, I already said how the horn was full of dirt, cracked, and unable to make sound. However, I would not call it worthless, even if Sam did turn it into a drinking horn(which he has not done yet), it still would not be worthless. If it is made into a drinking horn, that still means it won't be found by the enemy, and that is definitely "worth" something.

If the horn was not the horn of Joramun, then why would Coldhands(presumably) wrap it up with the cache of dragonglass? "Oh hey here is a bunch of weapons to kill the Others, and just in case you needed a drinking horn, I thought I would throw in this old worthless broken one..."

That doesn't make much sense IMO. There has to be a reason that horn was included with the dragonglass, and it's not just for a future drinking horn. The dragonglass is a weapon against the Others, and the horn is a weapon that could be used by the Others, to bring down the Wall. Both the horn, and the obsidian, are crucial in stopping the Others.

So again, I don't quite understand your rather unspecific post.

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The horn is not there to bring down the Wall and let the Others’ invade. If that were its purpose, then whoever left the dragonglass would have simply destroyed it.

Then what's its purpose?

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Hm, generally I liked this episode. At one point I thought "*finally*, things are getting interesting!" and then I realized it was the 8th episode of the season. When it takes 8 episodes to build up to tension-filled events like that, something's a bit off. Looking back on the preceding episodes, a lot of it comes through as characters dicking around, annoying each other with dialogue that has no bearing on the show, and adding scenes that don't build up to anything. I found that in the first season it was the exact opposite - every episode was full of tension and that building up feeling. I know that the books are different from each other, yet there is plenty of action all the same, perhaps more so than aGoT. Certainly a lot of shockers occur.

Look, I don't really care that they changed Jeyne Westerling to some random lady from Volantis, but when you look at the plot structure, by doing this change it took many episodes to establish a rapport between her and Robb, areas of common interest, mutual attraction, etc. HOWEVER if they had just had him going to the Crag, capturing the castle, and learning of his brothers, with perhaps a scene about as long as the one in this episode, it would have saved so much more time for other areas that needed to filled out -- principally, imho, Tyrion's storyline as well as Arya's. (After all, in the books Robb was pretty much instantly attracted to Jeyne - why does it need to be "deeper" than that? In fact, it is the utter folly of his rash act that makes the following events even more tragic.)

One thing that continually confuses me - why are they portraying Cersei as the wise tactician and Tyrion as the dummy who has no flare? It seems like they're presenting him as an over-horny courtier, who is good at intrigue but not much good at anything else. The Chain is a really important part of the upcoming battle, and yet we haven't seen or heard anything about it. If it suddenly starts rising from the water in episode 9, non-reading viewers will be confused, and probably think it was either Cersei's or Tywin's idea.

I thought the execution of the infamous dinner with Cersei went off well, but I did SO want to see Tyrion twisting Cersei's arm and cowing her as well as her guards. I personally believed that was such a crucial moment in the book, when he "reached for his father's voice and found it; he sounded cold, uncaring." Instead, Cersei just sits there smiling and says "Get. Out." And so HE is routed! Why are they doing this role reversal? It just makes no sense. Cersei has her sexuality and low cunning, and Tyrion has superior wits. They're making poor Peter Dinklage look a bit like a fool.

Out of the things they changed, nothing was too bad. I've finally gotten over the fact that they're not going to be as loyal to the second book as they were to the first in the beginning season, so I try to just think of it as something entirely different. For all I know, they may not have the Red Wedding, or the Purple One!

My favorite scene was at the end when Maester Luwin spotted Osha going into the crypts, and as they talk about the farmer's boys Bran is awake and listening, and Osha says "the little lads have been through enough already". I felt that the line, while simple, was so eloquent about their situation -- as well as the general situation and tragedy of the Starks. All of them have been through so damn much. The music that began playing at that point was quite touching.

Edited by dark sister

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While I do think it has taken up a lot of screen time, and while I do proffer the original storyline, I actually liked the final scene with Robb and Talisa at the end of this episode. I don't know if she is playing Robb false, or what, but I thought her story about the slave saving her brother in Volantis, was actually quite touching and believable. By the time she was done telling it, I had also fallin in love with her, and if that story was not true, than she is a very convincing liar. I dunno, it was just refreshing to see this heartwarming fun love scene, and I really felt happy for them when Talisa started to joyously laugh and smile as they were kissing and undressing each other. Not to mention, any execution is going to be good, when you have Oona Chaplin getting naked at the end, that was a definite bonus. Just wow. That woman is gorgeous.

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