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[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion


Ran
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My guess is it's Lancel that tries to kill Tyrion next ep rather than a kingsguard. I think I saw a shot of him fighting in the preview. I still think Bronn is going to die too.

This season is driving me nuts:

Episode 6:

Qhorin: Tell me true, if your people captured me, would they take me prisoner?

Ygritte: They'd take your head off your shoulders if they was feeling kind, if not they'd kill you slow.

WTF show? So Ygritte was just lying there for absolutely no reason?

In the early parts of the season the show dances around Davos' backstory. I thought this was because they wanted to avoid a clunky exposition scene, since Davos mostly talks to Stannis and Stannis has no need to explain to Davos what Davos did in the rebellion. But no, they just wanted to make it a mystery for some reason, waste lots of time dancing around it, and then have a long exposition scene about it in episode 8.

They actually give Cat a good reason for letting Jaime go instead of doing it out of irrational but understandable grief. Then she forgets that she has a good reason when Robb wants to know why she did it.

One of the most intelligent characters in the show is shown cramming for the battle that he had to know was coming all season like a frat boy who was stoned all semester cramming for finals. Seriously, why the lack of building any tension all season towards what is hopefully going to be the most epic hour of television in quite some time? No matter how good it is it can't repair the damage done by the lack of build up to it as far as the season goes.

The only tension there has been all season has been between Arya and Tywin, and they just deflated that balloon. I am sure there is going to be some pay off to that eventually, but GEEZ! I hate the fact that Arya doesn't have to kill a guard to get out of there, but maybe she'll have a kill in ep 10 before meeting up with Jaqen.

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It was broken and worthless and consigned to an upcycled life as a drinking horn.

I am not sure what your trying to say here, are you saying that about the horn in the books, or in the show? Because in the show, the horn did not look broken and worthless, and in the book, I already said how the horn was full of dirt, cracked, and unable to make sound. However, I would not call it worthless, even if Sam did turn it into a drinking horn(which he has not done yet), it still would not be worthless. If it is made into a drinking horn, that still means it won't be found by the enemy, and that is definitely "worth" something.

If the horn was not the horn of Joramun, then why would Coldhands(presumably) wrap it up with the cache of dragonglass? "Oh hey here is a bunch of weapons to kill the Others, and just in case you needed a drinking horn, I thought I would throw in this old worthless broken one..."

That doesn't make much sense IMO. There has to be a reason that horn was included with the dragonglass, and it's not just for a future drinking horn. The dragonglass is a weapon against the Others, and the horn is a weapon that could be used by the Others, to bring down the Wall. Both the horn, and the obsidian, are crucial in stopping the Others.

So again, I don't quite understand your rather unspecific post.

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Hm, generally I liked this episode. At one point I thought "*finally*, things are getting interesting!" and then I realized it was the 8th episode of the season. When it takes 8 episodes to build up to tension-filled events like that, something's a bit off. Looking back on the preceding episodes, a lot of it comes through as characters dicking around, annoying each other with dialogue that has no bearing on the show, and adding scenes that don't build up to anything. I found that in the first season it was the exact opposite - every episode was full of tension and that building up feeling. I know that the books are different from each other, yet there is plenty of action all the same, perhaps more so than aGoT. Certainly a lot of shockers occur.

Look, I don't really care that they changed Jeyne Westerling to some random lady from Volantis, but when you look at the plot structure, by doing this change it took many episodes to establish a rapport between her and Robb, areas of common interest, mutual attraction, etc. HOWEVER if they had just had him going to the Crag, capturing the castle, and learning of his brothers, with perhaps a scene about as long as the one in this episode, it would have saved so much more time for other areas that needed to filled out -- principally, imho, Tyrion's storyline as well as Arya's. (After all, in the books Robb was pretty much instantly attracted to Jeyne - why does it need to be "deeper" than that? In fact, it is the utter folly of his rash act that makes the following events even more tragic.)

One thing that continually confuses me - why are they portraying Cersei as the wise tactician and Tyrion as the dummy who has no flare? It seems like they're presenting him as an over-horny courtier, who is good at intrigue but not much good at anything else. The Chain is a really important part of the upcoming battle, and yet we haven't seen or heard anything about it. If it suddenly starts rising from the water in episode 9, non-reading viewers will be confused, and probably think it was either Cersei's or Tywin's idea.

I thought the execution of the infamous dinner with Cersei went off well, but I did SO want to see Tyrion twisting Cersei's arm and cowing her as well as her guards. I personally believed that was such a crucial moment in the book, when he "reached for his father's voice and found it; he sounded cold, uncaring." Instead, Cersei just sits there smiling and says "Get. Out." And so HE is routed! Why are they doing this role reversal? It just makes no sense. Cersei has her sexuality and low cunning, and Tyrion has superior wits. They're making poor Peter Dinklage look a bit like a fool.

Out of the things they changed, nothing was too bad. I've finally gotten over the fact that they're not going to be as loyal to the second book as they were to the first in the beginning season, so I try to just think of it as something entirely different. For all I know, they may not have the Red Wedding, or the Purple One!

My favorite scene was at the end when Maester Luwin spotted Osha going into the crypts, and as they talk about the farmer's boys Bran is awake and listening, and Osha says "the little lads have been through enough already". I felt that the line, while simple, was so eloquent about their situation -- as well as the general situation and tragedy of the Starks. All of them have been through so damn much. The music that began playing at that point was quite touching.

Edited by dark sister
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While I do think it has taken up a lot of screen time, and while I do proffer the original storyline, I actually liked the final scene with Robb and Talisa at the end of this episode. I don't know if she is playing Robb false, or what, but I thought her story about the slave saving her brother in Volantis, was actually quite touching and believable. By the time she was done telling it, I had also fallin in love with her, and if that story was not true, than she is a very convincing liar. I dunno, it was just refreshing to see this heartwarming fun love scene, and I really felt happy for them when Talisa started to joyously laugh and smile as they were kissing and undressing each other. Not to mention, any execution is going to be good, when you have Oona Chaplin getting naked at the end, that was a definite bonus. Just wow. That woman is gorgeous.

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I honestly do not know what to think of it.

I liked Jaime and Brienne scene, it will be fun seeing much more of it.

Also, the Arya and Jaqen scene was as good as all her scenes till now, and I loved her look when she realised Tywin is leaving and she was too late to wish for his death. A lot disappointed by the lack of the weasel soup, though, I feel robbed of it.

I hated that they gave Robb the lines that Eddard is supposed to have told him about a man being brave when he is afraid. Ok, they left the lines out from the discussion between Brandon and Eddard at the beginning. It is shame, but I can live with it. But giving this to Robb talking to this random Volantene is just wrong.

As is the whole Robb+Volantene romance. She is becoming his personal Ros now. Also, he was terrible to Catelyn, much more than is the books.

I do not care about Asha and Theon much, they were good, I suppose. I loved the scene with Luwin findding out that they were still alive.

Still no House of the Undying? I thought they were going to show it at least 2 episodes ago, and still not?

Ros has a point in the plot now, thank the Old Gods. The thing with the necklace made sense. It was interesting to see Tyrion all concerned for Shae, it really showed that he loves her. But since when can Shae read?

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Since the TV forgot the time setting they were in and gave it modern day sensibilities. It seems the TV show has become in parts, what GRRM describes as bad fantasy. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Canadian_Signing_Tour_Vancouver1/

Gah, that is definitely bad fantasy. The part where he talks about the "cheeky stableboy telling off the princess" reminds me so much of the Volantene nurse telking back to Robb and being allowed to randomly walk into the tent while he is discussing war with Bolton.

I definitely understand Bolton's betrayal now.

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Been ages since I read it, but I remembered Jon and the Halfhand being cornered with no way out, not ever exactly captured. Could be wrong, though.

I'm not sure what the difference between being captured and being corned with no way out by an opposing force is, but in the books, Quorin realizes they are going to get captured, the Wildlings had been pursuing them for days and they were quickly losing ground. He sends the really cool red shirt Ranger to take a sniper's perch and try to hold them off, while he and Jon flee. Once the sniper is taken, he realizes they will be caught, so he picks a cave to make their last stand (and enact his plan to save Jon)

I thought the execution of the infamous dinner with Cersei went off well, but I did SO want to see Tyrion twisting Cersei's arm and cowing her as well as her guards. I personally believed that was such a crucial moment in the book, when he "reached for his father's voice and found it; he sounded cold, uncaring." Instead, Cersei just sits there smiling and says "Get. Out." And so HE is routed! Why are they doing this role reversal? It just makes no sense. Cersei has her sexuality and low cunning, and Tyrion has superior wits. They're making poor Peter Dinklage look a bit like a fool. .

I'm not sure how Tyrion looks like a fool, Cersei is gloating over the trap she sprung on him, and it turns out she had fallen for his decoy. He plays it straight (otherwise it would be revealed as not his whore), and then delivers his killer mini-speech about ashes in her mouth. My non-book fiance said something like, "Go get her Tyrion!" after that scene. Funny how people see the same thing different ways (I don't mean that sarcastically, I find it interesting).

I wanted to add (to my negative review of this episode) that one thing this season has done very well is display two of the things that really highlight how brilliant Martin's is writing in the novels. He takes two generic fantasy situations and twists them with real-world problems. Theon takes a major city with an absurdly small force and a great plan. This happens all the time in novels, but rarely do you get to see the aftermath of "What do you do now?" Theon is as trapped in Winterfell by his dual nature as Bran and Rickon are by their last names. He was raised as a Stark, and trained in military planning (Ned, could have done anything worse to set your kids up for failure? At least you trained Arya with a sword), yet his troops are Ironborn reavers, not soldiers. The show has done a great job of how this mix is not going to be successful. So what can Theon do now? His men simply want to take the loot, rape the women and burn it down. His training says, 'We're at war, we had the major control point of the region, we MUST hold it at all cost, including my own life. To leave it would disgrace me." This story has been a true highlight this season, more interesting than the books even (IMO)

The second one is the classic "Big Clash". Stannis is about to attack KL. We don't like Stannis. He is not a good man/ Even this week, when he gives a very redeeming speech to Davos, he ends it being very unlikable. He is fighting Tyrion, who we all love. The best character on television right now. They could not have done more to make Tyrion more likable this week, adding sadly misplaced love to his resume. However, next week, who are we rooting for? Tyrion is fighting to keep Joffery, the shit-heel of all shit-heels, on the throne. I think this is why they have played up some Stannis's lesser qualities this season. (Plus it will make his face-turn more interesting next season)

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