[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion

[jarl the climber]

Why do the First Men have such frosty manhole covers?

Because they prefer to pitch and not to catch

[ViennaGirl]

She's the SLAVE cities chick - that's why

ok, yeah, fine, typo. and I guess it won't really matter for much longer anyway...

[Ghost714]

I posted this last night, like twenty pages ago, but considering at that time, there was like 20 posts a minute coming in, I don't think anybody saw it. So I am going to repost it.

In the preview for next week, does anyone else think it looked like Stannis was leading the charge off the rowboats, into the defenders of Kings Landing?

Don't get me wrong, I am glad the are showing something that makes Stannis look like a badass, but Stannis isn't really that type of badass. He is definitely the more cautious Commander, and if he leads the charge, they are going to have to make him look even more badass IMO. He would have to be super badass, in order to survive to fight another day, after having led the charge right into a trap, and then being flanked by the Tywin/Tyrell army.

So if my eyes did not decieve me, and if that preview was not just crafty editing to make it look like Stannis leads the charge, then I am very curious/excited to see Stannis fighting hand to hand the whole battle, and how he will survive it.

[Warden of the North121]

I posted this last night, like twenty pages ago, but considering at that time, there was like 20 posts a minute coming in, I don't think anybody saw it. So I am going to repost it. In the preview for next week, does anyone else think it looked like Stannis was leading the charge off the rowboats, into the defenders of Kings Landing? Don't get me wrong, I am glad the are showing something that makes Stannis look like a badass, but Stannis isn't really that type of badass. He is definitely the more cautious Commander, and if he leads the charge, they are going to have to make him look even more badass IMO. He would have to be super badass, in order to survive to fight another day, after having led the charge right into a trap, and then being flanked by the Tywin/Tyrell army. So if my eyes did not decieve me, and if that preview was not just crafty editing to make it look like Stannis leads the charge, then I am very curious/excited to see Stannis fighting hand to hand the whole battle, and how he will survive it.

I felt the same thing when I saw the preview. They've been known for trying to trick us in these promos but I'm almost sure I saw him on solid ground.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Warden of the North121

[StannisandDaeny]

People actually reacted to that post I think. I'm pretty sure it's Stannis. I figure having Stannis stay out of the battle would make it more difficult to film because you'd have to switch between the battle and his overview of the battle - an overview was exactly what they were trying to avoid. I also think to lead and direct your men, especially in a night battle where you can't give banner signals, you have to be in the thick of it; He does not have Lightbringer and it seems like he's getting knocked out in the trailer though, so I can't say I'm too excited... if they make him look like a fool I'll get mad as Aerys... Stannis *was* on solid ground in the books as well though so it's not that much of a stretch. Considering how narrow the escape was it would be unlikely he got nowhere near the fighting - Robert was the warrior of the Baratheons but Stannis isn't a pushover.

Edited May 21, 2012 by StannisandDaeny

[gmavridis]

Until now I was hoping they will engineer a disclosure scene for Jeyne Westerling so the real beauty of Tywin's plot would not be lost. Also, the only reason that anyone could forgive Catelyn for letting Kingslayer go, was the unimaginable grief that she must have suffered when she found out that the boys (Bran and Rickon) were dead.

I think they blew it with these two lines of the plot.

[Warden of the North121]

People actually reacted to that post I think. I'm pretty sure it's Stannis. I figure having Stannis stay out of the battle would make it more difficult to film because you'd have to switch between the battle and his overview of the battle - an overview was exactly what they were trying to avoid. I also think to lead and direct your men, especially in a night battle where you can't give banner signals, you have to be in the thick of it; He does not have Lightbringer and it seems like he's getting knocked out in the trailer though, so I can't say I'm too excited... if they make him look like a fool I'll get mad as Aerys... Stannis *was* on solid ground in the books as well though so it's not that much of a stretch. Considering how narrow the escape was it would be unlikely he got nowhere near the fighting - Robert was the warrior of the Baratheons but Stannis isn't a pushover.

Ahh you're right stannis commanded the men on land while that tool Imry? Florent (all the Florents are tools it seems) got everyone killed. God I hope they don't make Davos the one guilty for the blunder.

[rmanoj]

People actually reacted to that post I think. I'm pretty sure it's Stannis. I figure having Stannis stay out of the battle would make it more difficult to film because you'd have to switch between the battle and his overview of the battle - an overview was exactly what they were trying to avoid. I also think to lead and direct your men, especially in a night battle where you can't give banner signals, you have to be in the thick of it; He does not have Lightbringer and it seems like he's getting knocked out in the trailer though, so I can't say I'm too excited... if they make him look like a fool I'll get mad as Aerys... Stannis *was* on solid ground in the books as well though so it's not that much of a stretch. Considering how narrow the escape was it would be unlikely he got nowhere near the fighting - Robert was the warrior of the Baratheons but Stannis isn't a pushover.

I'm fairly sure that there was a bit in the books where Stannis remembers that "Lightbringer" had served him no better than any ordinary sword on the Blackwater, so he did indeed get caught up in the melée.

Edit: Yes, it's from ASOS, Davos V: "It glimmers prettily, I grant you, but on the Blackwater this magic sword served me no better than any common steel."

Edited May 21, 2012 by rmanoj

[CrypticWeirwood]

I posted this last night, like twenty pages ago, but considering at that time, there was like 20 posts a minute coming in, I don't think anybody saw it. So I am going to repost it. In the preview for next week, does anyone else think it looked like Stannis was leading the charge off the rowboats, into the defenders of Kings Landing? Don't get me wrong, I am glad the are showing something that makes Stannis look like a badass, but Stannis isn't really that type of badass. He is definitely the more cautious Commander, and if he leads the charge, they are going to have to make him look even more badass IMO. He would have to be super badass, in order to survive to fight another day, after having led the charge right into a trap, and then being flanked by the Tywin/Tyrell army. So if my eyes did not decieve me, and if that preview was not just crafty editing to make it look like Stannis leads the charge, then I am very curious/excited to see Stannis fighting hand to hand the whole battle, and how he will survive it.

Motionless as a gargoyle, Tyrion Lannister hunched on one knee atop a merlon. Beyond the Mud Gate and the desolation that had once been the fishmarket and wharves , the river itself seemed to have taken fire. Half of Stannis’s fleet was ablaze, along with most of Joffrey’s. The kiss of wildfire turned proud ships into funeral pyres and men into living torches. The air was full of smoke and arrows and screams. Downstream, commoners and highborn captains alike could see the hot green death swirling toward their rafts and carracks and ferries, borne on the current of the Blackwater. The long white oars of the Myrish galleys flashed like the legs of maddened centipedes as they fought to come about, but it was no good. The centipedes had no place to run. A dozen great fires raged under the city walls, where casks of burning pitch had exploded, but the wildfire reduced them to no more than candles in a burning house, their orange and scarlet pennons fluttering insignificantly against the jade holocaust. The low clouds caught the color of the burning river and roofed the sky in shades of shifting green, eerily beautiful. A terrible beauty. Like dragonfire. Tyrion wondered if Aegon the Conqueror had felt like this as he flew above his Field of Fire. The furnace wind lifted his crimson cloak and beat at his bare face, yet he could not turn away. He was dimly aware of the gold cloaks cheering from the hoardings. He had no voice to join them. It was a half victory. It will not be enough. He saw another of the hulks he’d stuffed full of King Aerys’s fickle fruits engulfed by the hungry flames. A fountain of burning jade rose from the river the blast so bright he had to shield his eyes. Plumes of fire thirty and forty feet high danced upon the waters, crackling and hissing. For a few moments they washed out the screams. There were hundreds in the water, drowning or burning or doing a little of both.

Do you hear them shrieking, Stannis? Do you see them burning? This is your work as much as mine.

Somewhere in that seething mass of men south of the Blackwater, Stannis was watching too, Tyrion knew. He’d never had his brother Robert’s thirst for battle. He would command from the rear, from the reserve, much as Lord Tywin Lannister was wont to do.

Like as not, he was sitting a warhorse right now, clad in bright armor, his crown upon his head. A crown of red gold, Varys says, its points fashioned in the shapes of flames. “My ships.” Joffrey’s voice cracked as he shouted up from the wallwalk, where he huddled with his guards behind the ramparts. The golden circlet of kingship adorned his battle helm. “My

Kingslander

’s burning,

Queen Cersei

,

Loyal Man

. Look, that’s

Seaflower

, there.” He pointed with his new sword, out to where the green flames were licking at

Seaflower

’s golden hull and creeping up her oars. Her captain had turned her upriver, but not quickly enough to evade the wildfire. She was doomed, Tyrion knew. There was no other way. If we had not come forth to meet them, Stannis would have sensed the trap. An arrow could be aimed, and a spear, even the stone...

[Targaryen Kaiser]

I was thinking about the possibility of Talissa being Jeyne Westerling but a different one than the sweet and innocent girl in the books. Maybe she is indeed a spy for Tywin and will be loyal to the Lannisters until the end. She may end up being to the group of Robb's betrayers, replacing her mother? That would add some tragedy to Robb's story, as if the Red Wedding itself weren't tragic enough.

Also, I'm praying to not see the Sack of Winterfell this season. I wanna see it happening with the actual Ramsey-actor, not the extra one, helmet-ed or not.

Also, the only reason that anyone could forgive Catelyn for letting Kingslayer go, was the unimaginable grief that she must have suffered when she found out that the boys (Bran and Rickon) were dead. I think they blew it with these two lines of the plot.

Maybe that will be the reason why Robb will forgive her eventually. They saved the news of Bran and Rikon's supposed deaths as a way for Robb and her mother to come close again.

[gmavridis]

What was up with Tywin's comment about keeping someone sober? Was he talking about Ser Kevin?

No. He was talking about the Mountain.

[niñostark]

Slow boring episode :D Blackwater seems great (I loved the scene when Tyrion is commanding people to kill those brave men=

TV Robb does not have honor and blows everything for being horny, that just sucks... be it an adaptation and all, it sucks hard, the scene was horrible to watch (even though, the girl has a nice ass)

Book Arya is a badass starting to be a killing machine, TV Arya is not

Jaime, Theon and Tyrion are the only ones I'm enjoying to watch...

I don't know if I'm the only one, but beside the looks (amazing casting btw) the girl playing Brienne sucks at acting

[jblair]

Also I'm getting really tired of hearing Dany say the word dragons. I really liked her a lot more season 1.

Yes. She is sounding more and more like Veruca Salt, and I'm liking her less and less.

"I WANT MY DRAGONS AND I WANT THEM NOW, DADDY MORMONT!"

[StannisandDaeny]

At that point, he wasn't fighting, but you can be damned sure Stannis committed the reserve to attack when his forces were being overrun. It would be a poor general who would lose sight of the greater scale of the battle to go charging off from the start. I remember the passage rmanoj is referring to as well: he probably got caught up in the fighting during the retreat. Otherwise how would he know Lightbringer didn't serve him better than any other sword? They really should have given him Lightbringer, it would work awesomely in the darkness.

Ok. I'll say that I don't buy people's interpretation of the book-Robb's actions.

Ah, so that's what you were saying. I see. I thought you meant what he did in the book was unrealistic, which I thought was a result of you imagining him as grown-Robb from the show. I always thought he dreaded getting a bastard because he saw what that had caused with Catelyn and thus made some false pretense about honour up for marrying Jeyne, completely oblivious to the fact breaking vows with your bannermen is equally if not worse offending. He thought he could get away with it, but obviously didn't know Walder Frey well enough... I didn't hate him, but I did think of him as a fool. Even if it hadn't been for Lord Frey marrying such a small house would have been stupid. Marrying Asha in exchange for the North and support to get her on the throne of Pyke, on the other hand... Now there's a killer move. Shame Robb, such a shame! So a fool he is, but a 15-year old fool who had a lot (far too many) burdens to carry at that and still did admirably at least on the field of battle, of course.

Edited May 21, 2012 by StannisandDaeny

[Fengari]

Winterfell:

Great scene between Theon and his sister, I had no problems with Yara before but I really liked her today.

I especially loved how she sent her men away before changing her tone from mocking Theon to telling him she doesn't want him to die. The anecdote was a nice touch to show she does care for her brother, even though she does not think him fit to lead the Ironborn.

North of the Wall:

I just repeat what I said about last weeks episode: the changes do not affect why/how Jon joins the wildlings, so no problem. The scenes with Ygritte showed the viewers how strong Jon feels about his vows, while he could still say it (as we can't hear him think it later). He was all alone with her, nobody to rat him out, and he was clearly tempted, but didn't give in to it. Now we're done with that, I'm ready for Kit to get out of all these furs for her now.

So, we were all wrong. It wasn't Sam finding the dragonglass, it was Grenn (I think?). At least it has been found. I wonder what the first men's signs were about...

Robb's camp:

Different 'trigger' for releasing Jaimie, yes, but not less understandable, and actually more justified. Though I understood the grief driving Cat to her decision, she did make a terrible gamble in the books: after all, with only Brienne as an escort (I don't think Cleos ever counted...), how good was the chance of Jaimie actually reaching Kings Landing, and even if he did, how big was the chance that that would get her girls back? (We know how well it worked out...). In this scenario, she takes the gamble as opposed to leaving Jaimie in a situation where he would most likely be lynched soon, which would certainly be disastrous for her girls.

Great acting in the scene between Robb and Cat, by the way.

I liked the scenes of Robb and Talisa this episode. Now they havved dropped their guard around each other they feel a lot less awkward, and that's fitting. Yes, it's a lovey-dovey romance story, but it needs to be to have his fall from the Frey's grace make sense at all. Personally, I feel this relationship they have set up makes more sense than the one in the book. Robb risking his kingdom for a woman he has come to know and love is less foolish and more mature than him sleeping with a nice nobody in a moment of weakness and then deciding he has to do the 'honorable thing'. One can argue not marrying her and honouring his previous promises would have been just as honourable. After all, as far as he knows, even his father has had a 'fling on the side'.

I also don't get why people want Talisa anything other than she appears to be. Because it is a different character than in the book? It would be kind of hard to explain a nobleman's daughter, espacially from an enemy house, being around him long enough to get to know and love in these circumstances... And having him wounded and being nursed back to health in a castle would take him out of his camp too long to fit with the rest of the timelines as they are presented in the series.

If the conspiracy theories about Talisa do turn out to be right, though, I'll happily accept that D&D have managed to surprise me as GRRM has done so many times...

On the Road (or river):

Soooo looking forward to more of that!

Harrenhall:

Did I understand it correctly that Tywin is marching towards Robb? Isn't he coming to the rescue of King's Landing then?

I liked how they showed Arya was too late in thinking of naming Tywin, and I loved the 'Unname me', 'No', 'Please?', that smug expression on her face, and the shrug when Jaqen says 'a girl lacks honour'.

Weasel soup, as I have said before, is something I can do without, even though I loved it in the books. Without prisoners, it wouldn't have made much sense. I do hope the escape isn't finished yet, though, I feel Arya killing people along her journey with lessening horror at what she's doing is important. But, we know there's more Jaqen and a coin to come, so the possibility is still there. Them walking between all these staged guard-corpses was pretty cool-looking, though.

(By the way HBO, when Jaqen sheds his face, could you please send it over here for my husband to borrow for a bit? That would compensate nicely for the lack of a certain bath-scene...)

King's Landing:

All Tyrion's scenes were great, as always, and Bronn, Varys and Cersei are great with him.

I'm a bit worried about him being so desperately late in planning the defenses, though. I really want the viewers to see that he really was who saved King's Landing, not Renly's ghost or Tywin (if he ever gets there). I'm reserving judgement until after next episode, though.

I wonder if Tyrion ever contemplates this opportunity: if he gets Joffrey killed, Cersei will kill Roz, and Shae will be safe because Cersei will think she's already gotten Tyrion's love. Win/win/win. Well, the last one purely for Tyrion. The actress playing Shae is not convincing me.

I'm looking forward to seeing Joffreys arrogance crumble next week ('There's too many of them!' in the preview had me cracking up...)

I'm not usually one who notices the cinematography aspects consciously unless they are bad, but what a great image, when Varys and Tyrion talk about the dragons, with the flames on the foreground...

On sea:

I now know why I have never like Stannis. He is not a cat person.

Good exposition between Stannis and Davos, though I think for non-readers it would have been good to get this a bit earlier in the season.

Qarth:

When Dany's dragons were stolen I thought it was to give her something to do until going to the House of the Undying. But she doesn't really do much, does he? I'm starting to fear it is to give her something to do IN the House of the Undying, INSTEAD of walking around having visions... If I think about it more, that makes sense. They have left everything that is dreams, visions or prophecy out, except when it is for Bran (where it is quite obviously very necessary). So why would they include those from the House? Showing the RW without giving too much away is difficult, the vision of Rhaegar has no immediate part in the storylines so far (and we didn't get the other R+L=J clues either). I'm lowering my expectations, that way i can only be pleasantly surprised...

A final note: if I'm wrong and there will be visions, I want to request an added one: Arya holding armfuls of small golden statues of naked bald men holding swords...

[StannisandDaeny]

I'm looking forward to seeing Joffreys arrogance crumble next week ('There's too many of them!' in the preview had me cracking up...)

He'll probably be shitting his pants throughout the battle and make an ass of himself when he legs it and causes his troops to rout (if they go down that road) but once the battle is won will be back to his usual smugness and that will be terrible to watch along with the gloating Tyrells alongside him. Please tell me Mace hasn't been cast...

[Mulled Wino]

Motionless as a gargoyle, Tyrion Lannister hunched on one knee atop a merlon. Beyond the Mud Gate and the desolation that had once been the fishmarket and wharves , the river itself seemed to have taken fire. Half of Stannis’s fleet was ablaze, along with most of Joffrey’s. The kiss of wildfire turned proud ships into funeral pyres and men into living torches. The air was full of smoke and arrows and screams. Downstream, commoners and highborn captains alike could see the hot green death swirling toward their rafts and carracks and ferries, borne on the current of the Blackwater. The long white oars of the Myrish galleys flashed like the legs of maddened centipedes as they fought to come about, but it was no good. The centipedes had no place to run. A dozen great fires raged under the city walls, where casks of burning pitch had exploded, but the wildfire reduced them to no more than candles in a burning house, their orange and scarlet pennons fluttering insignificantly against the jade holocaust. The low clouds caught the color of the burning river and roofed the sky in shades of shifting green, eerily beautiful. A terrible beauty. Like dragonfire. Tyrion wondered if Aegon the Conqueror had felt like this as he flew above his Field of Fire. The furnace wind lifted his crimson cloak and beat at his bare face, yet he could not turn away. He was dimly aware of the gold cloaks cheering from the hoardings. He had no voice to join them. It was a half victory. It will not be enough. He saw another of the hulks he’d stuffed full of King Aerys’s fickle fruits engulfed by the hungry flames. A fountain of burning jade rose from the river the blast so bright he had to shield his eyes. Plumes of fire thirty and forty feet high danced upon the waters, crackling and hissing. For a few moments they washed out the screams. There were hundreds in the water, drowning or burning or doing a little of both.

Do you hear them shrieking, Stannis? Do you see them burning? This is your work as much as mine.

Somewhere in that seething mass of men south of the Blackwater, Stannis was watching too, Tyrion knew. He’d never had his brother Robert’s thirst for battle. He would command from the rear, from the reserve, much as Lord Tywin Lannister was wont to do.

Like as not, he was sitting a warhorse right now, clad in bright armor, his crown upon his head. A crown of red gold, Varys says, its points fashioned in the shapes of flames. “My ships.” Joffrey’s voice cracked as he shouted up from the wallwalk, where he huddled with his guards behind the ramparts. The golden circlet of kingship adorned his battle helm. “My

Kingslander

’s burning,

Queen Cersei

,

Loyal Man

. Look, that’s

Seaflower

, there.” He pointed with his new sword, out to where the green flames were licking at

Seaflower

’s golden hull and creeping up her oars. Her captain had turned her upriver, but not quickly enough to evade the wildfire. She was doomed, Tyrion knew. There was no other way. If we had not come forth to meet them, Stannis would have sensed the trap. An arrow could be aimed, and a spear, even the stone...

That's merely conjecture on Tyrion's part. Doesnt mean Stannis didnt fight in the battle.

[CrypticWeirwood]

That's merely conjecture on Tyrion's part. Doesn't mean Stannis didn't fight in the battle.

Fair point.

But it does show how much Tyrion respected his opponent, his nephew’s uncle, to project Tywin’s cunning and caution onto Stannis.

[CrypticWeirwood]

A final note: if I'm wrong and there will be visions, I want to request an added one: Arya holding armfuls of small golden statues of naked bald men holding swords...

For some reason, your vision summoned up Daario Narahis’s twin blades to my depraved mind, a connection I’ve never made before. Thank you. I think. ; }

[Mulled Wino]

Fair point.

But it does show how much Tyrion respected his opponent, his nephew’s uncle, to project Tywin’s cunning and caution onto Stannis.

That it does. Stannis deserved respect, tyrion earned in at bob.