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[Book Spoilers] EP 208 Discussion

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I have totally drunk the Kool-aid. I think Dagmar is Ramsay. The mentions by Roose of his Bastard and sending him to Winterfell are misdirection, to make it more surprising when a crapload of Northern troops show up and the audience gets excited and think that Winterfell is saved and then they start taking orders from Dagmar and he tells them to burn the whole place to the ground and they kill everybody, Winterfellians and Iron Islanders and Maester Luwin and seemingly Theon. And then they identify him in some way as Roose's bastard, probably with a sort of dorky bit of dialogue. I don't know about the actors real ages, but I think i can buy Dagmar as looking like he could be Roose's son onscreen. Does it make sense? Not really. But I'm convinced.

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Here is my guess of how the show will unfold...

Talisa is Jeyne. It will be revealed by her when they marry. That's when he Mom makes another deal, to make sure the Red Wedding takes place. Jeyne/Talisa has no part in that. She is in it with Roose, right now, she updates Tywin for him. They give each other sneaky looks whenever they go in and out of the tent...knowing looks. She isn't recognized in the Crag because she has a list of items she needs from her Maester, who is probably not going to spill who she is...that or she never leaves camp. The story she gives isn't hers, it's her Grandmas. No Weasel soup is needed, because Roose gets to take Harrenhall without incident, since he and Tywin are already together in this. He holds Harrenhall until Winterfell falls. Roose keeps mentiong Ramsay, because that is part of the plan. He needs to take Winterfell, it's the seat promised to him by Tywin.

Edited by chickenly

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Just a side note...

I wonder what the Vegas odds were that after 8 episodes in we wouldn't have seen Emilia Clark (Dannerys), or Esme Bianco (Ros) naked?

I would have lost my house.

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Obviously there was no mention of Tyrion's chain. However, did anyone notice the clanking sounds in the background during his scene with Bronn/Varys? It is very apparent at the start and somewhat noticeable towards the end. Wasn't there something in the books about the sound of the chain being made a constant noise throughout the city?

Maybe it was because I was anticipating seeing or hearing discussion of the chain, but it was the first thing I thought of when I heard that noise. Is there an obvious explanation for it/does anyone else hear it?

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Quorin gets caught by the Wildlings in the book.

Been ages since I read it, but I remembered Jon and the Halfhand being cornered with no way out, not ever exactly captured. Could be wrong, though.

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What's holding me back from the Dagmar = Ramsay theory is that he is hanging around the Iron Islands when we first encounter him

I don't know how they can contort Dagmar's presence at Pyke into something not ridiculous - realistically he wouldn't just be 'at Pyke', nor would he have known that the Greyjoys were orchestrating attacks against the North (and subsequently iravel from the Dreadfort to Pyke in time to fuck shit up)

Considering some of the changes made for the show, my guess is that Ramsay will take Winterfell sans the Reek impersonation

edit: grammar

Edited by istari

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I hope you're right! I was just thinking about the Dagmar=Ramsay theory and all of a sudden it all started to make sense to me. But I would rather Dagmar wasn't Ramsay in the end.

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Oh, Christ, please stop! He IS NOT Ramsay! Seven hells on the dude who started this :( Roose even said it again this episode "my bastard is close and blablabla" and also, there are no crows left at Winterfell, do you think this is freaking Harry Potter so that he could send, i dunno, a bloody magical buttefly to his Dagsay? Jesus.

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Oh, Christ, please stop! He IS NOT Ramsay! Seven hells on the dude who started this :( Roose even said it again this episode "my bastard is close and blablabla" and also, there are no crows left at Winterfell, do you think this is freaking Harry Potter so that he could send, i dunno, a bloody magical buttefly to his Dagsay? Jesus.

I agree.

Balon Greyjoy went through a lot of trouble to make sure nobody could leave the Iron Islands once they got there, because he didn't want anybody to know he was gathering his forces for an attack. Yet people just think Ramsey happened to be there, knowing that Balon would attack, and knowing that Theon would turn his cloak.... Yeah, I am not buying it. How would Ramsey know to be there?

Dagmer is Theon's first mate, So if he is Ramsey, how are we to believe that all these other Ironborn would take orders from some guy they have never met or heard of? Furthermore, how would the other Ironborn with Theon not notice someone who is not Ironborn, surely they would be able to tell? Theon doesn't completely act Ironborn, but everyone knows him as Balon's son and Asha/Yara's brother, so it's not a problem. That's not the case with Dagmer.

Also, Dagmer is in his 40's, and he looks it. Roose is also in his mid to late 40's in the books, but even if they make him a little older for the show, at most, he can't be much over 50. So are we to believe that Roose had Ramsey when he was 7-10 years old??? Come on people.

So not only would it not make sense for Ramsey to be Dagmer, but it would also be a huge let down, because nothing about Dagmer screams the evilness that should be Ramsey. If Dagmer ends up being Ramsey, then that physical and mental portrayal of Ramsey might even be worse than the physical and mental portrayal of Asha, that we get from this Yara. Yara has been my biggest disappointment of the whole season, she is all wrong for Asha, so for me to say that Dagmer being Ramsey might be worse, that's saying something.

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All I can say is the preview for episode 19 was epic. I really hope they make the Battle of Blackwater epic.

The only question that remains is...WILL THERE BE A CHAIN!? Seriously, the whole time Tyrion and Varys were talking while looking out at the sea all I could think was how awesome it would be to see a big chain hanging from one wall to the other across the channel. The way the scene was shot almost seemed like they were hinting at it. They kept using angles on either side of Tyrion and Varys, clearly showing the narrow channel between the city. Also, I thought for sure Tyrion was going to mention the chain when Bronn and Him were sitting inside and Tyrion was reading war books. When Varys asked Tyrion what they have got to defend mud gate once Stannis arrives Tyrion looks at Bronn and says "Pig shit". Is this suppose to be a hint at the chain?

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Well I believe that no way that, while Dagmer has no chance of being Ramsay, that he will have an active part in the sack of winterfell, probably opening the gates to ramsay or something like that. It would be a nice scene for somewhere near the end of episode 10. It would still be along the lines of "Theon is responsible for his own downfall for trusting visibly evil people", and would be a nice way to NOT show Ramsay while still letting him be known by the audience, letting him be cast only later, probably in season 4-5.

As for the Reeds, it sads my heart but that scene where the Meister met with Osha practically sealed their faiths as never appearing in the show for me. They will probably replace them both by Osha (since she already replaced Jojen in an earlier scene) and have the Meister leave with Rickon, never to be seen again. Probably the saddest part missing from the books, since the Reeds are among my (and many others) favorites, including Howland, that has yet to appear but is already a great character.

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I think this was a good episode, one that had a purpose to set up next weeks sure to be a Blockbuster episode.

Im impartial on the Robb stuff, he was a background character in the books and i understand why the producers wanted him to have screen time with the Starks being the most popular house. So let them have there cliche romance and i dont care they changed Jeyne either.

Good to see all the stuff North of the Wall is going in the prescribed location so im happy with that. The scenes in Kings Landing were amazing, i always loved the Joy to Ashes quote :). I would love to see Stannis put a smile on Joff's face.

Alas young Arya, i would have loved to see the Weasel Soup go down but time is short and they need to get her story moving forward instead of setting up new characters, having the northmen captured ect. ect. Im learning to enjoy the show without crying about stuff they missed in the book its a good stand alone.

Qarthian Quicky, Jorah pulled a dagger on Dany as she brushed his cheek poor bear.

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Just a side note...

I wonder what the Vegas odds were that after 8 episodes in we wouldn't have seen Emilia Clark (Dannerys), or Esme Bianco (Ros) naked?

I would have lost my house.

Your post had me worried that all the trolls were going to start posting the bs about how "Emilia Clarke had a no nudity clause put into her contract for season two". Thankfully, so far there has not been any of them yet, because they are getting old.

Has Ros really not been nude in any of the episodes for season two? She has been in so many pointless scenes, I would have thought she would have been naked for some of them. Not that I am complaining.

I am a bit confused by your post though, you kind of make it sound like its a good thing Emilia Clarke has not been in any nude scenes this season. I could careless with Ros, but I am all for any nude Dany scenes, I mean come on, it's Emilia Clarke....

Its funny though, it does seem like Emilia Clarke was nude in a lot of episodes for season one, but if I am not mistaken, she was only actually nude in three different episodes. She just had quite a bit of nude scenes for the first episode, but all her nude scenes actually had a point. They were actually pretty important to the scene, to show what Daenerys had to go through. With Ros, not so much.

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Remember that interview with the actor who portrays Renly, Gethin Anthony, when he said that the horses were tough to deal with? He said how you only saw people on horseback, not getting on nor especially getting off, because it was always an unfilmably clumsy/embarrassing ordeal requiring a lot of help? Well, we’ve now seen Charles Dance’s Tywin doing both things. We saw him dismounting his horse when he first got to Harrenhall, and now we’ve seen him mounting one two. I thought his moves looked completely natural both times. I was especially impressed with his arrival, when he dismounted like a real trooper. Which I suppose is just what he is. A real veteran, and a true actor. He’s done all this before, many many times, and it shows. Bravo! Some things you just can’t fake convincingly. Charles Dance is Tywin Lannister. And we have two more seasons of him. Can’t wait!

I found the deer skinning scene! It was in GoT and was actually Randall Tarly explaining Samwell's new found desire to serve the Wall. It worked for Tywin talking to Jaime too.

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I agree. The writers have some extra information from GRRM, so when they had them find the horn under some old school First Men rock carvings, I definitely got the idea that it was important. I have always thought that horn was the horn of Joramun, and after seeing that scene, it only furthered my belief. In the books, it's less dramatic, with more of an emphasis on who put it there(Coldhands). In the show, they said it had been there for a long time etc, and with the First Men rock carvings, there was more of an emphasis on the importance of what was in that cache(the horn). So I definitely think that was the horn of Joramun, and they wanted to make it seem more important, so people would remember it for later. In the books, the horn was full of dirt, and it was old and cracked, unable to make sound. I could be wrong, but in the show the horn looked old, but clean and well kept, not broken at all.

It was broken and worthless and consigned to an upcycled life as a drinking horn.

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One person's "nitpick" over "trivia" is another person's criticism about cliched writing or internal inconsistencies with the changes that were made if you're going to make them. . . .

That being said, liked Yara better in this episdoe. She's looking like her father rather than the character in the book's description. It works on TV. Liked her dialogue, including her very brief moment of sentimentality, couched, as it was, in a tale of a colicky baby she wanted to strangle. But before that she was pretty clear why even she would wash her hands of him.

LOL moments with Tyrion and Varys, Tyrion and Bronn, and the three of them together. Thank goodness it didn't get campy or sitcom-y.

Liked Stannis' monologue. I generally like the Stannis character and his motivation (he has the better claim), except for killing his own brother.

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Even if it hadn't been for Lord Frey marrying such a small house would have been stupid. Marrying Asha in exchange for the North and support to get her on the throne of Pyke, on the other hand... Now there's a killer move. Shame Robb, such a shame! So a fool he is, but a 15-year old fool who had a lot (far too many) burdens to carry at that and still did admirably at least on the field of battle, of course.

Wow. I never thought about marriage scenario with Asha, but you're spot on there, THAT would've been a killer move! And I do like show's Asha/Yara so it would've been great to see them interact as a married couple.

I don't think Balon would have been happy because he seems like a guy he wants thing to be done HIS way even though result might be the same (having offspring as a king/queen). But having ironborn as a queen in the north and then her children as King/princes/princesses - that sounds awesome and like a dream come true for ironborns. And think if Asha would have fought with Robb instead of against him! Gaaah, missed opportunities!

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