[Book Spoilers] EP 209 Discussion

[CrownedStag]

“Those are brave men, knocking on our door. Let’s go kill them!”

What a great line

[Maester Hodor]

"my nose will be half way up your ass by the time the night is done"

What a great line

[Raksha the Demon]

Show : Makes sense with a Sansa that won't let herself trust or like a Lannister again.

Book: Makes sense with a softer Sansa.

They just portray two slightly different evolutions of the character. But I believe it was useful in the show because of how Sansa has (not) been portrayed in previous episodes. And like Mooncat said, might help explain her reaction to the forced marriage to viewers because right now, Tyrion seems like he should be her hero.

The TV characterization of Sansa has not run quite as close to the book as I would like. But it is in ACOK that after Tyrion saves Sansa from Joffrey's beating/stripping ordeal and brings her back to his tower and has her washed and medically attended, that Sansa herself, in her thoughts, wants to trust Tyrion, thinking that he seems kind; but reminds herself that Cersei seemed kind to her too. (I don't have the book in front of me now) She cannot bring herself to trust him or to forget that Tyrion is a Lannister. Despite his having shown her some decency and even kindness, he is a member of the family that killed her father after promising to be merciful; the family that is holding her captive. I didn't blame Sansa one bit for not trusting Tyrion, or any Lannister.

The show has also had to make Sansa more emotionally immature than she was in the books. Her foolish behavior and somewhat superficial, sheltered outlook on life in the first season; is more understandable in an 11-year-old child than it is in a 13-year-old; and in the book, she was 12 during the Battle of the Blackwater; TV-Sansa is supposed to be 14 but looks 18 (it doesn't help that the young actress is a tall, beautiful girl who is physically maturing quickly). Sansa was an isolated (no Shae to trust, just the drunken Ser Dontos) abused 12-year-old in the book; and the best defense she could muster was not to trust any Lannister again, even one who appeared to be kind; and it's a pretty good strategy. TV-Sansa's distrust of Tyrion even after he saved her from Joffrey was well-portrayed by Sophie Turner, there is, initially, fear/wariness in her eyes and face when he approaches her and extends his hand.

Unfortunately, by the time they get around to marrying TV-Sansa to TV-Tyrion, the pathos and injustice of marrying a child (flowering or no flowering, she's not yet 13, young even by Westerosi standards; and book-Tyrion said on their wedding night that he desired her even though she is still a child) will be lost, because Sophie Turner is a gorgeous teenager who will be 17 or so in real life and not look remotely childish.

[Raksha the Demon]

That line jarred me a bit. We know she prays for Joff to NOT return. So that implies she feels the same for Tyrion. Yet she and we know that Tyrion has saved her and taken her side when no one else did. It was clever writing but not entirely appropriate.

In the book, if I remember right, Sansa does pray for Tyrion and many others, in a private but heartfelt prayer. As for TV-Sansa, she's a bit different from the original character; maybe she believed that if Tyrion and Joffrey were both dead, she might have a better chance of being sent home.

[Ghost714]

Does anybody think Joffrey or Cersei ordered Sandor to take out Bronn, but he desided not to after actually seeing Bronn was what he claimed to be, a "hard man", like Sandor himself?

Or was Sandor just testing Bronn for himself, trying to see what kind of man he would be fighting with soon?

Or was Sandor just wanting to kill someone?

I could see it being the first option, there would be a lot of motive for wanting to take Bronn out of the picture in the show. He is in charge of the City Watch, and he actually spends time with the men, earning their loyalty. Also, Bronn isn't a fraud, he is everything he claims to be. So even if Cersei put someone else "officially" in charge, the men would probably still listen to Bronn, and think of him as their Commander(similar to Skahaz mo Kandaq with the Brazen Beasts in ADwD, even when "demoted", he was still in charge of his men). So I can see why Cersei would see the need to have Bronn killed, and not just demoted. I would like it if that was the case, because it would be interesting knowing Sandor didn't kill him out of some weird twisted respect for a fellow "real killer".

I loved how Bronn got up, and didn't back down from Sandor, while keeping his hand on his knife, that scene was so badass. Bronn's knife at his lower back is so cool, it just really fits the character, and I thought it was a really great touch having Bronn shoot the guy on fire running at Sandor, that was one of those truly great moments in television, and this episode was full of moments like that.

[J_Crews]

Bronn's knife at his lower back is so cool, it just really fits the character,

I'm with you. I wish my rinky-dink town had a custom knife maker. I would SO have one of those made. :)

[Arawni]

Tactically, no Stannis shouldn't have charged up the ladder. You hang back and engage when you think the turning point is come. Just how Tywin does things. Still badass, though.

Not badass, just stupid. Maybe it's just me but I don't see that acting stupid and irresponsibly endangering your army and attack by charging mindlessly to the most dangerous spot on a battlefield. In a way I do understand why they wanted to place Stannis in the front line as they made some characters fight without helmets (IRL would NEVER happen but in this case characters must be recognizeble to audience) but still I couldn't get that "he's the badass!!11" feeling from it.

Well, it didn't ruin the apisode for me, though, not by a close. Episode was epic and I loved it from beginning to the end and most praising about characters, acting and such has already been made so I won't repeate everything. Just awesome episode and that's it.

[Vandalism]

Wonderful episode, really wonderful. I absolutely loved the genuine epic factor in it. Sandor's exchange with Bronn was bone chilling; I always love it when GRRM's characters interact with each other.

Stannis Motherfucking Baratheon was bad-ass as usual. They gave him fighting scenes which was brilliant, because the guy's a soldier and a good one at that. I loved his swordfighting scenes, Sandor and Bronn's combat skills and in general everything about the fighting.

The end was amazing, despite me being a Stannis fan. It was fast and abrupt, just like in the books. Loras taking off his helm and Tywin striding into the hall, boss as ever.

Then the Rains of Castamere =D

[BlackTalon]

I'm with you. I wish my rinky-dink town had a custom knife maker. I would SO have one of those made. :)

that knife is a typical Gurkha Kukri ( a bit strange, but apparently the filmmakers thought it would be sufficiently exotic to be unknown to most of the audience and not be associated with something from "this" world). One gets a good look at it when Bronn and Tyrion are surrounded by the mountain clans on their way back from the eyrie.

If you are really serious about wanting one, you ought to check out www.himalayan-imports.com , they offer genuine handforged Nepalese kukris. Not cheap, but these knifes are the real thing, not some Chinese ebay crap.

Long time knife and blade aficionado here :-)

Edited May 29, 2012 by BlackTalon

[nara]

Only question is, should Joffrey have been with Cersei and Tommen in that scene? It's great with Cersei and her baby, but would she have allowed Joffrey to be captured? I doubt it.

Edited because I realized part of my comment was incorrect.

Edited May 30, 2012 by nara

[RoamingRonin]

On rewatch, I noticed that when Cersei says to Tommen "you will be strong and fierce, just like your father" they cut to Tyrion watching his father, Tywin, on his white destrier, cutting down soldiers left and right. LOVE it.

Only question is, should Joffrey have been with Cersei and Tommen in that scene? It's great with Cersei and her baby, but would she have allowed Joffrey to be captured? I doubt it.

I assumed Cersei took only Tommen because she didn't know where Joffrey was. Lancel refused to tell her and it wouldn't be safe/smart for her to wander around the castle looking for him.

[BlackTalon]

"my nose will be half way up your ass by the time the night is done"

What a great line

speak for yourself ... I think I would have preferred not to be told anything about Bronn´s favourite practices in bed o_O

[never trust a bard]

^{WOW. Best episode yet. Amazing. It was nice to get a whole epi on one topic. Amazing battle but still so many great moments for characters.}

^{Best line: Any man dies with a clean sword, I will rape his fucking corpse! - Sandor}

^{Most chilling moment: Throne room with Tommen. :eek:}

^{Best acting: Tie between Cersei and Sansa, well and Sandor, Joeffrey too ... ok, and a ton others.}

^{Loved all the Sandor stuff. The wildfire was breathtaking. I'm so amazed that we got so much character in this great battle episode. We saw great character moments from Cersei (evil and vulnerable), Jeoffrey (weak and stupid), Sansa (starting to develop into her own), Sandor (seeing what a wrecked person he is), Tyrion (one of the few people who's got a great head on his shoulders). I could go on and on. So many great moments. Pod, Renly's armor, OMG. I'll just stop.}

[never trust a bard]

DP

Edited May 29, 2012 by never trust a bard

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

This episode exceeded my expectations, job well done. Tyrion and Cersei were mostly the stars of this episode but most everything with Stannis, Davos, Hound, Sansa was also pretty good.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren

[BigThroner]

Good EP> Strange they did not jump between storylines. Sad at first but

.looking forward to my favs next week! This series is eating a huge chunk of my

time i have watched every episode more than 3x's and still lern something here

and there. Books are a definite after this series , trust me. :bowdown:

[Conchobar]

In the book, when Tywin came, I imagined that shit all happened across the river. So Stannis and most of his army were across the river and they needed to cross it to get to the walls, but how are we supposed to imagine this large "Lannister/ Tyrell" force came to the other side of the river?

[legba11]

On rewatch, I noticed that when Cersei says to Tommen "you will be strong and fierce, just like your father" they cut to Tyrion watching his father, Tywin, on his white destrier, cutting down soldiers left and right. LOVE it.

Only question is, should Joffrey have been with Cersei and Tommen in that scene? It's great with Cersei and her baby, but would she have allowed Joffrey to be captured? I doubt it.

Do you think Joffery would have sat there and listened to his mom tell stories and then drink the poison? I don't and I doubt Cersei did either. He didn't come back to the keep because she beckoned, he came because he was afraid and she gave him the excuse. To be honest, (and I'm glad this didn't happen) I'm surprised he didn't go find Sansa and go out with a bang, thinking he was a dead king anyway.

[sdallis]

I want to write a long and elegant post about how amazing this episode was, but I can't because I shit myself and I have to go clean up...

[StannisandDaeny]

Joffrey is too cowardly to even face Sansa without his Kingsguard; she would likely kick his ass like Arya before her if he tried anything funny ^^

@ Celli: I actually had to use the King's Landing map in order to make sense of both fights. In the books they had to cross a river, in the show it seems to me like Maegor's hold and the Mudgate were facing the sea rather than the river, and Stannis' army wasn't divided into a land and naval force but just attacking straight from the sea as one large naval force. With King's Landing facing the sea, there appeared to simply be no river for them to cross... which would explain it.