Grimwolfe Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 the awkward moment when you realise Sandor Clegane is... It is known. and Istari 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory's Shade Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 What manipulations?And just because she believes that R'hllor is the one true god, that does not make her evil. Everything Melisandre does is to achieve her goal of stopping the Others and saving the world, how can that be "evil"? Sure she may be wrong about some things, or she may be right, but either way that doesn't make her evil. She is willing to make neccisary sacrifices for the greater good, some of those things may be "bad", but she believes them to be neccisary. Given the evidence she knows, I don't blame her for her decisions. People in power have to be able to make neccisary sacrifices. That's not evil, it's a neccisary "evil".Melisandre goads an aging Maester into suicide. Kills Renly, kills the Castellan of Storm's End, wants to burn Edric Storm, does burn many others, and manipulates Stannis from the first moment. Her burning of the Lord of Bones was evil and a manipulation of the Night's Watch. She has done very little good IMHO, unlike Thorros, who could also and should also be criticized for necromancy. Her intentions are to do the Red God's will to save the world from the Others. "Evil" used to accomplish noble goals is no less "evil", and Melisandre is truly one of the most "evil" characters in the epic. Ramsey and Joffrey are hollow sociopaths, Melisandre is a far more complex "evil" antagonist. jons nissa and Woman of War 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istari Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Melisandre goads an aging Maester into suicide. Kills Renly, kills the Castellan of Storm's End, wants to burn Edric Storm, does burn many others, and manipulates Stannis from the first moment. Her burning of the Lord of Bones was evil and a manipulation of the Night's Watch. She has done very little good IMHO, unlike Thorros, who could also and should also be criticized for necromancy. Her intentions are to do the Red God's will to save the world from the Others. "Evil" used to accomplish noble goals is no less "evil", and Melisandre is truly one of the most "evil" characters in the epic. Ramsey and Joffrey are hollow sociopaths, Melisandre is a far more complex "evil" antagonist.Desperate times call for desperate measures? Just kidding, your analysis is spot-on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost714 Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Melisandre goads an aging Maester into suicide. Kills Renly, kills the Castellan of Storm's End, wants to burn Edric Storm, does burn many others, and manipulates Stannis from the first moment. Her burning of the Lord of Bones was evil and a manipulation of the Night's Watch. She has done very little good IMHO, unlike Thorros, who could also and should also be criticized for necromancy. Her intentions are to do the Red God's will to save the world from the Others. "Evil" used to accomplish noble goals is no less "evil", and Melisandre is truly one of the most "evil" characters in the epic. Ramsey and Joffrey are hollow sociopaths, Melisandre is a far more complex "evil" antagonist.Are you truly that naive? First off, that "aging Maester" was trying to kill her. Secondly, Melisandre asked Cressen if he wanted to go through with his folly, she gave him a chance to not drink it, and he did it anyways. That's his fault, not hers, she basically told him it would not kill her, but it would him, and he did it anyways. How is the hell is she to blame?Yes Melisandre did kill Renly and Ser Cortnay Penrose, what of it? They were rebels, they committed treason, a crime punishable by death, and Melisandre did what her King wanted her to do. Rattleshirt deserved to die, and she made it to wear Mance could live. Everybody wanted Mance to live, Jon, Stannis, everybody. However, Stannis's code could not allow him to live, so Melisandre figured out a way around that. A great man got to live, and a horrible man was taken out of the world, how is that evil? Even Mance said they burned the man that they had to. What was needed to be done, was done, except this way Mance got to live. Melisandre then comes up with a way of saving Jon's sister, using Mance. There was nothing evil about that. Do you truly think Rattleshirt didn't deserve to burn for his crimes? Seriously?In Melisandre's POV chapter in ADwD, we get to read her thoughts, and be in her head, and we truly see that she honestly cares about stopping the Others and saving the entire world. She is willing to do what it takes to achieve that goal, and there is such a thing as a "necessary evil". People in power must always be willing to choose the "lesser of two evils". It sounds harsh, but she believes those things are necessary, and given the proof she has seen in her flames, how can you fault her for making those choices. Even if she was wrong, the proof she see's is still very convincing. When it comes to Edric Storm, It may seem harsh, but If I had the proof she did, and if I truly believed it was necessary to sacrifice a child to save the world, then I would do it in a heart beat. So I applaud Melisandre for being able to make those decisions, and for being able to do what it takes to "make it happen", and save the world. I am not saying to make that decision on a whim, but given the evidence Melisandre had, I don't fault her for making that sacrifice. Bayard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Eightieth Sentinel Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 After watching this episode 5 times, hearing Stannis screaming "nooooooo" when his men are pulling him away still gives me chills. The way the Hound tells Sansa how he's going "some place that isn't burning" also does. I still can't believe how incredible this episode was. Big thanks to GRRM and everyone who worked on this one. Also to D&D and HBO for bringing these amazing books to life. Even though there are changes(I'm not a purist but some of the changes just leave me questioning 'why?') I absolutely love the show. Aripyanfar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Bong of Ice and Fire Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 I really hate them doing this to Stannis's character, he is not evil, and he did not sell his soul to a "demon"(Melisandre), to win the Iron Throne.Ummmm... He pretty much DID sell his soul to a foreign, creepy God to win the Iron Throne. Everybody thinks Stannis is some super honorable noble guy, but he's actually quite pragmatic and will willing to do whatever it takes to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alboin Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Everyone seems to like "Blackwater" (including me), perhaps none of previous episodes received such warm welcome... And such bad ratings, half a milion fall. Any idea why is this so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbor Gold I'm Sold Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 I know it looked cool, having Stannis be that badass, but I hate what the are implying for the character. You said it yourself, Stannis looked "possessed" and "deranged". The show is making it out to seem like Stannis was unstoppable, but not because he is a naturally skilled swordsman or anything. They are making him seem unstoppable, "because he sold his soul to the devil", and that's why he couldn't be killed.This is backed up by the show having Varys say, "the dark arts have provided Lord Stannis with his army's and paved his path to our door. For a man in service to such powers to sit on the Iron Throne, I can think of nothing worse."I really hate them doing this to Stannis's character, he is not evil, and he did not sell his soul to a "demon"(Melisandre), to win the Iron Throne. Melisandre is also not evil, we learn this as the story goes on. I don't know how the show is going to come back from this, that's a major "butterfly effect" IMO, and I am afraid the show will continue to make these two characters black, instead of grey. Even when the show gets to ADwD, I am afraid they will still make these two characters "evil", and that's bullshit IMO, the story is much better with grey characters.I personally believe that, even though Stannis and Melisandre are "grey" characters, overal I would still consider them as "good guys". Just like how Arya has killed in cold blood, but she is still in the catagory of "good", when looking at the big picture.When we first meet Stannis and Melisandre, most of us though they were "bad", but as the story progressed, we learn that's not the case. So I am worried that, even if the show wants to start showing these two characters as not being evil down the road, like in the books, they won't be able to, because they have made them to unredeemable, and to unlikeable. If that makes sense.I don't know about all that. They are into burning people. I don't know how you would feel about burning alive but it definitely wouldn't rank of the best ways to go out for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbor Gold I'm Sold Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) Are you kidding me? Tyrion did not hold Stannis off until the calvary got there. Did you miss the part of Tyrion saying "fuck me", as like a thousand guys came charging at his small band of troops? Had Tywin and Loras been three minutes later, all of Tyrion's men would have been slaughtered, including Tyrion himself. Same goes for in the book.Stannis would not make a horrible King, it's because he used Melisandre to kill his brother that makes him so good. Stannis will literally do what ever it takes to fulfill his duty, which is sitting the Iron Throne. Renly was a Usurper by all the laws of Westeros, because he lost. Your not a rebel if you win, but Renly did not win, so he was a rebel.I am not saying Stannis would make the perfect King, but he sure as hell would not be a horrible King. Nobody can be a perfect King, because nobody is perfect, but Stannis would make a good fair King.Did I see you were saying his adultery with a Fire Priestess and giving birth to a shadow demon assasin to kill your brother makes you good???? Edited May 31, 2012 by Arbor Gold I'm Sold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisandDaeny Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) ^ Renly had to die. He was a usurper with no claim to the throne at all who was ready to plunge the realm into war just to become king (he would have gone to war with the Lannisters even if everything else didn't happen) and also kill his brother. Stannis (if he even knew it, which we can't be sure of) handled with him in the most effective way possible (no battle, less dead) that also dealt as little damage as possible to the realm (more men left to take on the horrible Lannisters). He, as the King, has that duty towards his subjects, bannermen and family. Allowing yourself and all the brave men who marched with you despite the odds to be killed in a close to hopeless battle which would greatly help the corrupt, unlawful regime that sits the Iron Throne as well as ensure the death of your family and allow them to be disinherited is not the way of the King. Other claimants to the throne are the result of incest and adultery, and with all due respect but no one seems to care about adultery much in Westeros (cfr Robert who was well-known for his adultery and nobody gave a crap about it). And if Selyse was your wife, well... It's Westerosi principles, not ours.Ummmm... He pretty much DID sell his soul to a foreign, creepy God to win the Iron Throne. Everybody thinks Stannis is some super honorable noble guy, but he's actually quite pragmatic and will willing to do whatever it takes to win.Close to everyone in the series prays for magic aid from the Gods. 'Warrior give me strength', 'Seven protect us all', 'May the Old gods protect you', 'Drowned God kill them all' ... The only difference there is, is that R'hllor actually has an impact. That's not selling your soul, that's just being smart and picking the right gun. Edited May 31, 2012 by StannisandDaeny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbor Gold I'm Sold Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) I think there is a slight difference in praying for power and burning people for power. I wouldn't say Renly had to die. If Stannis wasn't such a diffucult S.O.B. he could have just talked to Renly and worked out a comprimise. I think there are other ways to work with people especially your brother than just we think differently so I have to kill you. Edited May 31, 2012 by Arbor Gold I'm Sold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisandDaeny Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Burning people who are already sentenced to death for power that will help you with your righteous cause, that is. Praying for the gods to strike someone down or help you strike someone down is just the reverse thing: you're still trying to get someone killed. The concept of sacrifice is apparently also not very clear to people: sacrificial magic works in Westeros because the only people who can count on help from the gods are those who are willing to sacrifice and actually pay a price for what they're trying to achieve - why would the Gods aid those who simply pray to them to see to their every need? Why would they want such weak people to succeed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbor Gold I'm Sold Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) I'm trying to follow you here. Giving birth to shadow demon to slay brother makes you kingly. As long as its so your bannermans families wont lose all fighting at one spot so they can march or sail to there doom at KL? Edited May 31, 2012 by Arbor Gold I'm Sold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisandDaeny Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) Seems to me you're simply incorrectly oversimplifying the points I made 'cos you can't handle them. What you're suggesting is that Stannis would choose not to use the power at his command (and again, we are not certain he ordered Melisandre to kill Renly) and either allow his brother to kill him and all of his brave bannermen, disinherit his family and only child, let Baratheon bannermen slaughter each other which is exactly what the horrible Lannisters wanted and needed for them to remain on the throne, or simply wait at his castle until someone comes to do away with him and create a new song 'the Rains of Dragonstone', despite him being the one true King. Yeah, I suppose that makes much more sense, because that's what you would have wanted, or done in his stead. Allow yourself to be killed. Unfortunately, Stannis likes living, he does what he has to do, not what you want him to do, and that's the reason he's still kicking for now. Edited May 31, 2012 by StannisandDaeny Jessica Bendis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbor Gold I'm Sold Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 I am thinking very differently about results of praying. I believe praying to the weirwoods, the Old Gods, will be the most powerful religion when everything is all said and done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisandDaeny Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Tell that to Ned Stark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbor Gold I'm Sold Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Well he didn't choose to use that same power at KL and that is your whole reasoning why he is so great because he used it against his brother. Renly was marching to KL, slowly but marching. Ready to take out the Lannisters and get rid of all the bad you are claiming Stannis is going to due away with. He saves no one at this nonbattle they just all die at KL instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbor Gold I'm Sold Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Last I checked the story wasn't over yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisandDaeny Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) Renly was a rebel and nothing more. Allowing him to take King's Landing would just have been swapping one regime that had to be destroyed for another. Plus Renly would have eventually killed him if he didn't act so his actions are perfectly reasonable. Stannis is the King, and should have been the Lord of Storm's End and had the more powerful bannermen Renly was commanding as well. There is no reason he should not be allowed to stand up and defend his law- and tradition given rights from the people who would deny them from him when someone like Renly who crowns himself King on the sole basis of 'having a big army and thinking I'm great' does get your sympathy. Basically the true wrongdoers in this regard are the Tyrells, even from your point of view, because they and no one else saved the Lannister's asses and allowed them to continue their atrocities, such as the Red Wedding.If Bran gets the ability to Warg into people / creatures through Weirwoods it may become powerful. But they still wouldn't be Gods. Don't expect people to take something you say seriously if you can't back it up with evidence. Edited May 31, 2012 by StannisandDaeny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbor Gold I'm Sold Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Seems to me you're simply incorrectly oversimplifying the points I made 'cos you can't handle them. What you're suggesting is that Stannis would choose not to use the power at his command to kill him and all of his brave bannermen, disinherit his family and only child, let Baratheon bannermen slaughter each other which is exactly what the horrible Lannisters wanted and needed for them to remain on the throne. He did choose "to not use that power at his command" Melisandre he left out of the battle at KL. All his bannerman did get slaughtered what did you think happened when all that Wildfire blew. You are being kinda a prick about facts when you are one who is contradicting yourself. The FACTS are he lead everyone to their death. I'm not quite sure how you could see it any other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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