[Book Spoilers] EP 209 Discussion

[legba11]

Everyone seems to like "Blackwater" (including me), perhaps none of previous episodes received such warm welcome... And such bad ratings, half a milion fall. Any idea why is this so?

Holiday weekend.

[J_Crews]

He did choose "to not use that power at his command" Melisandre he left out of the battle at KL. All his bannerman did get slaughtered what did you think happened when all that Wildfire blew. You are being kinda a prick about facts when you are one who is contradicting yourself. The FACTS are he lead everyone to their death. I'm not quite sure how you could see it any other way.

There's quite a big difference between people dying in a pitched battle, trying and very nearly succeeding to take a walled-city versus if Stannis had thrown his pitifully small force against Renly's huge host, trying to beat him conventionally. That dog won't hunt, dude. All of the Stormlords owed their allegiance to Renly who, in turn, owed his to Stannis as the elder brother and thus the leader of House Baratheon. The Tyrells, technically, should've stayed loyal to Joffrey if not Stannis. Loras, being daddy Mace's favorite, however, convinced him to back lover boy Renly instead. People also seem to be missing the fact that, from their standpoint, it was always about the Tyrells gaining power. Renly would have been a puppet-King, at best. The Tyrells are very good at the game.

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

Stannis wasn't Lord of Storm's End and all the bannerman don't follow him because he is a miserable S.O.B that can't get along with anyone.

[StannisandDaeny]

He did choose "to not use that power at his command" Melisandre he left out of the battle at KL. All his bannerman did get slaughtered what did you think happened when all that Wildfire blew. You are being kinda a prick about facts when you are one who is contradicting yourself. The FACTS are he lead everyone to their death. I'm not quite sure how you could see it any other way.

Oh yeah, calling me a prick, that's gonna work. Melisandre wouldn't have had much of an impact on the Blackwater, plus Stannis' claim would always have been disputed because he 'gained it through magic' if she was there, which would lead to even more instability and war later on. The wildfire only worked because of Imry Florent's mistake, and Stannis was actually leading his men to victory and was extremely close to victory before the unexpected reinforcements arrived. It's not like he 'lead them there to die' or with the intent of losing his army, 'I don't see how you could believe that'. Are you in your right mind to be suggesting Stannis should *always* avoid combat? He should avoid hopeless combat, and the attack on King's Landing was by no means hopeless. His bannermen knew the risk of attacking King's Landing. The only ones who should kill are those who are ready to die. You cannot compare his situation with Renly with the attack on King's Landing - King's Landing was a tougher nut to crack and Melisandre already remarked she can't endlessly use the same trick. Even if Melisandre somehow killed every command / noble in the city (which would be impossible), the city would still be loyal to the Lannisters until it was taken with a military assault. And again you're oversimplifying. Stannis didn't lose his entire army - actually those who remained loyal to him and didn't flee because they thought they saw Renly's ghost were mostly lead back safely to King's Landing thanks to Stannis' tactical ingenuity. He started out with about 2000 men, and he had about 2000 left after the Blackwater again.

Stannis wasn't Lord of Storm's End and all the bannerman don't follow him because he is a miserable S.O.B that can't get along with anyone.

Again you fail. He *should* have been lord of Storm's End by tradition, however Robert chose to insult him by giving him Dragonstone. The men Renly had taken with him were converted by him, the others would have been converted as well if they hadn't been stopped by Loras Tyrell. He gained the support of the Night's Watch and the mountain tribes as well as many Northern Lords when he went to the Wall. Turns out he can get along with people and you shouldn't always believe everything every character says about another character.

It was Stannis's choice to put himself at the time up against Renlys army of which he can't defeat.

And look, it worked! The set-up was to first treat with his brother, then convincing Renly's army to join him instead. And it worked. He didn't have the army for a head-on attack on anyone at the time. If he had done nothing, it would've only been a matter of time until someone had attacked him, because he, as the King, would always be a threat to any pretender.

Edited May 31, 2012 by StannisandDaeny

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

It was Stannis's choice to put himself at the time up against Renlys army of which he can't defeat.

[J_Crews]

Stannis wasn't Lord of Storm's End and all the bannerman don't follow him because he is a miserable S.O.B that can't get along with anyone.

Renly was Lord of Storm's End and so they owed him their fealty... but Renly owed his fealty to Stannis as the head of his house. That's why Stannis followed Robert's lead when he rebelled, even though he agonized over it because he knew the Targs were the rightful kings, and that's why Renly was honor-bound to follow Stannis' lead.

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

Just not buying it. Whether he intended on leading all his men to die or not doesn't really matter. He isn't a great king he lead them to there doom. I guess your reasoning is that because the surprise host(Renly's ghost) showed up and defeated him that its not his fault. Information is power and the fact that he didn't know that this army was coming to crush him makes him an even weaker choice for king.

[J_Crews]

It was Stannis's choice to put himself at the time up against Renlys army of which he can't defeat.

That's another misconception. Stannis chose nothing. He *IS* King. Not fighting to secure that claim over all the usurpers running around would be failing in his duty; that's why he can't just step aside.

[StannisandDaeny]

Nope. No one would have done better in his stead. Renly had no battle experience at all and had probably pissed himself the moment he saw the wildfire. Joffrey? Don't make me laugh. Balon has no knowledge of land tactics. The prerequisites for the army taking Stannis' host by surprise were so many that it was always going to be very unlikely. It already started with Edmure Tully disobeying his orders. If you believe Stannis shouldn't be King because his scouts, luck, the knights he sent to convert the rest of Renly's host, and ultimately his army failed him and he failed to predict everything that would happen and didn't defeat a 80 000 men host with what little men he had while attacking a city, you're clearly just bullshitting and making stuff up because you think 'Stannis is a miserable SOB'. If that's the prerequisite for becoming King, you might as well already melt down the Iron Throne LOL. You have very little, if any, arguments at all, and all you've so far managed to say is 'hurr durr me no liek King Stannis.'

Edited May 31, 2012 by StannisandDaeny

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

Renly was Lord of Storm's End and so they owed him their fealty... but Renly owed his fealty to Stannis as the head of his house. That's why Stannis followed Robert's lead when he rebelled, even though he agonized over it because he knew the Targs were the rightful kings, and that's why Renly was honor-bound to follow Stannis' lead.

So take it to the next step. Why wasn't Stannis Lord at Storms End? Answer: see what you quoted

[StannisandDaeny]

Because Robert didn't give him Storm's End to insult him despite him holding it for him and keeping the Tyrell host busy (decisive for the outcome of his rebellion) because Robert didn't like him. This is proven in one of Cersei's chapters in AFFC and again by Cersei in A Clash Of Kings in one of Tyrion's chapters I think. Seriously, you should stop posting. I'm beginning to become embarrassed in your stead.

Edited May 31, 2012 by StannisandDaeny

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

Your just making excuses for him. Great leaders win the fight and he lost. According to you its acceptaple because he didn't know Tywin and the Tyrells are marching on him and the wildfire plan. He went about it with less intel and a weaker plan than the Lannisters and lost. Even you would have to say he got his ass handed to him so I'm not sure what you could try and argue.

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

Because Robert didn't give him Storm's End to insult him despite him holding it for him and keeping the Tyrell host busy (decisive for the outcome of his rebellion) because Robert didn't like him. This is proven in one of Cersei's chapters in AFFC and again by Cersei in A Clash Of Kings in one of Tyrion's chapters I think. Seriously, you should stop posting. I'm beginning to become embarrassed in your stead.

Yes thank you. And why did Robert not like him and want to spite him. Because he is a miserable S.O.B. that no one gets along with.

[J_Crews]

So take it to the next step. Why wasn't Stannis Lord at Storms End? Answer: see what you quoted

You're hopelessly deluded, and I'm starting to think you're just here as a troll. Stannis wasn't Lord of Storms End because Robert was a prick who repayed his loyalty by insulting him. Robert never loved either of his brothers, but, at the time, Renly was young, and Robert had no idea he would eventually grow into a man who cared more about fancy clothes and throwing masquerade balls than whoring, and drinking, and warring. Otherwise, he would've shunned him too, probably.

Being nice is a pathetic prerequisite to have for a King.

Also, this discussion should probably have it's own thread.

Edited May 31, 2012 by J_Crews

[StannisandDaeny]

Anyone would have lost that battle under those circumstances. It was a close defeat, he nearly took King's Landing. It's also irrelevant to him being a good King or not. His host was mostly comprised of the vainglorious Knights of Summer that followed the fool Renly. He had to march them or lose them, so attacking King's Landing was the only viable option. Seriously, out of all the Stannis-haters on this board, you're easily the most laughable one with the least argument,s if you would call them that ('hurr he lost a battle he can't be King'). You're just throwing bits of shit at a concrete wall, hoping to tear it down and ignoring the boulders that are falling on your head and the people around you that are laughing at you. Nuff said.

Stannis is not a 'miserable SOB who doesn't get along with anyone.' He has a tarnished reputation because of Robert's (unjustified) hatred of him and no one can hold anything concretely wrong he did against him, they just have a general dislike of Stannis based on general opinion, not facts. Stannis convinced the Night's Watch and the Northmen, amongst others, to aid him. So he does get along with people, just not with people who decide hating him and going with the flow is the easier and safer option. People will be ruled by whoever has the power to come over and kill them if they disagree with them, which is the only reason the Lannisters still have 'support' after they fucked up the country so badly, and the only reason the Boltons are still Wardens of the North while they have spit on the most sacred of laws, killed people for fun, and whatever other shit Ramsay did. It doesn't justify any of them.

Edited May 31, 2012 by StannisandDaeny

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

You're hopelessly deluded, and I'm starting to think you're just here as a troll. Stannis wasn't Lord of Storms End because Robert was a prick who repayed his loyalty by insulting him. Robert never loved either of his brothers, but, at the time, Renly was young, and Robert had no idea he would eventually grow into a man who cared more about fancy clothes and throwing masquerade balls than whoring, and drinking, and warring. Otherwise, he would've shunned him too, probably.

Being nice is a pathetic prerequisite to have for a King.

Also, this discussion should probably have it's own thread.

Hopelessly deluded doubtful. But I can at least see where you are coming from. You thought Robert was the prick. I thought Stannis was the prick. He they probably both are but the feelings of most in Westeros seem to be that they don't like Stannis and think he is. I wouldn't go giving him diplomat of the year because he saved the nightswatch in their hour of need and then tried to bully them into giving everything they had up. The nightswatch did what they had to do to survive Stannis.

[Jory's Shade]

Are you truly that naive?

First off, that "aging Maester" was trying to kill her. Secondly, Melisandre asked Cressen if he wanted to go through with his folly, she gave him a chance to not drink it, and he did it anyways. That's his fault, not hers, she basically told him it would not kill her, but it would him, and he did it anyways. How is the hell is she to blame?

Yes Melisandre did kill Renly and Ser Cortnay Penrose, what of it? They were rebels, they committed treason, a crime punishable by death, and Melisandre did what her King wanted her to do.

Rattleshirt deserved to die, and she made it to wear Mance could live. Everybody wanted Mance to live, Jon, Stannis, everybody. However, Stannis's code could not allow him to live, so Melisandre figured out a way around that. A great man got to live, and a horrible man was taken out of the world, how is that evil? Even Mance said they burned the man that they had to. What was needed to be done, was done, except this way Mance got to live. Melisandre then comes up with a way of saving Jon's sister, using Mance. There was nothing evil about that. Do you truly think Rattleshirt didn't deserve to burn for his crimes? Seriously?

In Melisandre's POV chapter in ADwD, we get to read her thoughts, and be in her head, and we truly see that she honestly cares about stopping the Others and saving the entire world. She is willing to do what it takes to achieve that goal, and there is such a thing as a "necessary evil".

People in power must always be willing to choose the "lesser of two evils". It sounds harsh, but she believes those things are necessary, and given the proof she has seen in her flames, how can you fault her for making those choices. Even if she was wrong, the proof she see's is still very convincing. When it comes to Edric Storm, It may seem harsh, but If I had the proof she did, and if I truly believed it was necessary to sacrifice a child to save the world, then I would do it in a heart beat. So I applaud Melisandre for being able to make those decisions, and for being able to do what it takes to "make it happen", and save the world. I am not saying to make that decision on a whim, but given the evidence Melisandre had, I don't fault her for making that sacrifice.

Thank God JFK didn't think this way. Evil done out of necessity is no less evil. War and self defense is not evil. It is a human reality. Using shadow craft to achieve noble goals sells your soul and cannot be justified by the ends justifies the means. Personally, I hope the Prince Who Was Promised has a different lore than Azor Ahai because if Jon is to wield Lightbringer, it is my hope the sword was not truly forged in the heart of Azor Ahai's wife. I hold out hope that R'hllor's version of the return of Azor Ahai is different from Rhaegar and Aemon's version that we have not heard.

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

Maybe I'm the only one that thinks using a shadow demon to kill your brother makes you evil. Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't see what triumphant battle planning Stannis has ever used. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks you need to be capable at diplomacy to be a good king. And maybe I'm the only one who thinks burning people alive for power makes you evil.

[StannisandDaeny]

If you are blind to the reasons behind those actions which I already mentioned and King Stannis' victories which I already summed up, not to mention the fact he's survived a lot of people who you think are somehow more competent than him despite being killed (after all in your view a good king has to be successful at everything and be able to predict everything) then yes, you're the only one who thinks so. Not to mention you don't get what these books are about if you want to think in purely black and white terms such as good and evil so badly. I've already mentioned all these reasons and totally owned you in previous posts, I'm not going to start this over from the start again. Seriously, your argumentation is so weak to the point it seems you're simply trying to troll people. If you're hoping Stannis will die so that the Red Wedding Alliance and Ramsay Snow will rule 'happily' ever after, you really don't have a case for calling anyone evil. In fact, that makes you evil.

'War and self defense is not evil. It is a human reality.'

Renly: not self defense at all because no one was threatening him prior to his declaration as King, starts a pointless war, is ready to kill his brother. Stannis: commits self defense and kills Renly, although you're again stupidly ignoring the fact we can't be sure Stannis actually ordered Mel to do that.

'Using shadow craft to achieve noble goals sells your soul and cannot be justified by the ends justifies the means.'

Yes it can. Sending thousands to their graves and destroying your future goals in the process, being totally oblivious to and uncaring of the lives of those who follow you and those who should follow you is worse. Everyone in the series prays for divine intervention and magic assistance, the only real difference is that Stannis chose the right gun and his magic actually works. Shadow magic is not necessarily evil: it revived Beric Dondarrion, for instance. To say 'it's bad simply because it's magic' is bullshit. Westeros is a fantasy realm. And it does not sell your soul. Are you one of Varys' little birds, perhaps, imitating his speech?

Edited May 31, 2012 by StannisandDaeny

[Arbor Gold I'm Sold]

And look, it worked! The set-up was to first treat with his brother, then convincing Renly's army to join him instead. And it worked. He didn't have the army for a head-on attack on anyone at the time. If he had done nothing, it would've only been a matter of time until someone had attacked him, because he, as the King, would always be a threat to any pretender.

I guess your definition of worked is different than mine. I think using black magic to kill your brother so you can take all his bannerman to die in KL is failing.