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[Book Spoilers] EP 209 Discussion


Ran
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I read that quote and agree. Stannis is righteous. I wouldn't equate that to him being a true hero. I categorize Bran, Brienne, and Jon as true heroes. I also do not consider Stannis evil; rather, he has been corrupted by evil. He was very pious prior to turning to the Lord of Light and has become a great zealot for R'hllor since his conversion. Stannis is not a "believer" like Matthos Seaworth, but he understands the Red God gives him the power he will need to win the Game of Thrones given his inferior troop and naval position. I get that and do not fault Stannis for using all the tools at his disposal to take what is his by right, in his mind at least. I just am not willing to ignore that it is the wrong path.

I feel the Red God is evil and corrupts righteous people with the lies it shows in its flames. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Thorros but consider him a rogue priest that is fearful of his visions and reticant to use the power of the Lord of Light, unlike Melisandre or the Red Priests in Volantis and Braavos. At the end of the day, I think the Lord of Light is the Lord of Lies and not a source of good.

Dragons are pure magic made mortal. They are the most devastating power in the world that must be tamed to protect the world from pure uncontrolled magic being unleashed. Dany is the key to controlling this power. That is why she is the mother of dragons. I cannot wait to see what happens with Euron's horn and how that will effect Dany's dragons.

I too have reservations about the Children of the Forest, but I am not sure I consider Bloodraven an abomination. I will have to see how the remaining Dunk & Egg stories and the final books come out, but I think there is still much to learn about how and why Bloodraven has become what he was when he met Bran. What we do know is that Greenseers and The Children seem to have more accurate visions than the Lord of Light's lies, and that GRRM has a grand plan for Bran. Also, the North still has the old magic, e.g. direwolves and giants, so that is why I am putting my skeptical eggs in the Children's basket.

Hell, maybe Tywin and Cersei are right: the gods are just cruel, not just the seven...

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I looked at Stannis going to the wall as his only option left. He had hardly any friends. He needed to gather another army to take the throne. He knew he wouldn't find any friends in the south. So really he went to the wall for selfish reasons. He figured that he could play up saving the realm from wildlings and booting the ironborn. Every northman could rally behind those causes as they probably have dealt with wildling attacks before and bore no love for the Greyjoys. All to give Stannis one more opportunity to take the throne.

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It's completely the other way around Arbor. He went to the wall first, not to White Harbour or any other castle to ask for their aid. He went to the Wall to aid them, knowing full well the Night's Watch would not enlarge his army. He did not make efforts to contact the Northern lords / hillmen until Jon suggested it to him. In fact it even diminished his chances. For Stannis it is a great sacrifice to go to the Wall - he leaves Dragonstone and Storm's End in a weak state of defence. The other lords do have the resources and men to send people to the Wall, they are not as hard-pressed as Stannis, yet they don't go there. What more do you need than GRRM himself saying it was a righteous move to not see something Stannis did as a completely evil act? Jezus you're biased, really.

I'm skeptical about the Lord of Light as well but like all tools I believe they can be used for good or for bad and like all religions it's never good if you drive it too far. The High Sparrow for example has only caused trouble so far. Stannis however, makes an agreement with non-believers and has both believers as unbelievers in his ranks. This hints he's very much capable of religious tolerance and the Red God's power could definitely be a good thing if used for good as opposed to the Seven who have so far proven useless, if not only because R'hllor seems like a counterpart to the Great Other. Take Moqorro healing Victarion for instance - maybe not such a good thing considering what Victarion did afterwards, but there's always the potential to use this power for good like it was used on Beric. I was very skeptical about Melisandre's intentions for a long time as well but her POV reveals she does genuinely want to use her power stop the Others. Keeping Mance Rayder alive instead of Rattleshirt thanks to the glamour was another good act imo.

Edited by StannisandDaeny
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For the discussion about the show making Stannis look evil:

Just listen to the Stannis theme music (skip to 3:50 to see what I mean). It reminds me of the Lord Of The Rings orc theme music. They never humanized him with Cressen and have made Davos' bias much more immediately obvious.

Edited by The Shadow Fox
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Now that you mention it, it is kinda similar. Stannis seems to have gained a lot of fans thanks to the Blackwater though - I think viewers right now are more concerned with how interesting a character is rather than purely how good or evil they are by now because they were tricked once into liking Ned Stark and then seeing him die and have come to realize GoT is not so much a case of good or bad. That was quite a hit for many I can imagine. A lot of people like Tywin Lannister as well despite him giving two downright evil orders (though, maybe they just forgot). I do kinda like the theme music and I tend to be positive and attribute it to the music trying to underline Stannis isn't going to f- around and is a force to be reckoned with. Also his scenes usually take place in places that are dark and full of terror - on a boat in the middle of the ocean, in the creepy place Dragonstone is... It's difficult to put in words, but despite the dark atmosphere of the soundtrack I feel it still has something heroic to it.

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Also his scenes usually take place in places that are dark and full of terror - on a boat in the middle of the ocean, in the creepy place Dragonstone is... It's difficult to put in words, but despite the dark atmosphere of the soundtrack I feel it still has something heroic to it.

Funny how you chose those words, for the supposed Azor Ahai reborn.

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It's completely the other way around Arbor. He went to the wall first, not to White Harbour or any other castle to ask for their aid. He went to the Wall to aid them, knowing full well the Night's Watch would not enlarge his army. He did not make efforts to contact the Northern lords / hillmen until Jon suggested it to him. In fact it even diminished his chances. For Stannis it is a great sacrifice to go to the Wall - he leaves Dragonstone and Storm's End in a weak state of defence. The other lords do have the resources and men to send people to the Wall, they are not as hard-pressed as Stannis, yet they don't go there. What more do you need than GRRM himself saying it was a righteous move to not see something Stannis did as a completely evil act? Jezus you're biased, really.

Yes he went to the wall first so he could be seen as savior of the realm. He is going to make Jon Lord of Winterfell to rally the north. Jon refuses so he is going to take a bunch of wildlings with him. This is when Jon suggests that taking wildlings wouldn't help his cause of rallying the North to his side. That he knows where the northerners are who can't wait to throw the ironborn out. Stannis wants to burn Edric Storm but Davos sends him away. Davos then shows Stannis how he should be king by going to the wall. Edited by Arbor Gold I'm Sold
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First you're going to argue Stannis is not a good commander, then you're going to argue he doesn't respect Davos? You're unbelievable. He didn't burn Edric Storm, and he wasn't going to burn Edric Storm either - Melisandre wanted to burn him but Stannis hadn't made a decision in the matter yet. Otherwise he would have long burned before Davos could even get to him. Stannis didn't have Davos locked up or punished for getting Edric Storm out either.

Funny how you chose those words, for the supposed Azor Ahai reborn.

It was intentional.

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First you're going to argue Stannis is not a good commander, then you're going to argue he doesn't respect Davos? You're unbelievable. He didn't burn Edric Storm, and he wasn't going to burn Edric Storm either - Melisandre wanted to burn him but Stannis hadn't made a decision in the matter yet. Otherwise he would have long burned before Davos could even get to him. Stannis didn't have Davos locked up or punished for getting Edric Storm out either.

It was intentional.

I said he got taught the lesson from Davos.I was definitley saying he respected Davos. So much he followed his advice to the wall. Davos knows Stannis about as good as anyone. Who better to judge when he feels like Stannis is going to burn the kid than him. The third death of joffrey happens and three kings have died of which Melisandre foretold. And she is preaching to burn him for his kingsblood and Davos feels Stannis is going to do it and ships him off.
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I guess your thinking of what lies ahead if Stannis lives = Stannis is Azor Azhai reborn, he bears Lightbringer and he is just getting some men to fight the war at the wall since this where the real battle for mankind unfolds.

My thinking of what lies ahead if he lives = Stannis is gathering an army of Northmen, He plans to team up with White Harbor to crush the Freys, en route to KL. He does not wield Lightbringer its a false sword. He is not Azor.

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Everyone seems to like "Blackwater" (including me), perhaps none of previous episodes received such warm welcome... And such bad ratings, half a milion fall. Any idea why is this so?

"Blackwater" did have the lowest ratings of the season, for the initial airing of the episode, but according to the Wiki, it was 3.38 million US views, not half a million. That's because of memorial day, and there was some NBA basket ball shit on to, I dunno what it's called I hate basket ball. However, the Blackwater episode has done really really good on the rewatches, from people with On-Demand and DVR's. Also tons of people have watched the episode when they replay it through the week.

I was a little pist about that though, I was sure this would be the episode to get over 4 million US views on the initial airing. Why didn't they play the Blackwater episode this Sunday? They could have had a week break inbetween the 8th and 9th episodes, and the ratings would have been much higher. I mean it still did really well considering the holiday and stuff, but I still think they should have pushed the episode back. HBO kind of took a leap of faith giving them the extra money for the Blackwater episode, I just hope they didn't screw it up by playing the episode last Sunday. Watch, now next time when they ask for more money, HBO will be like, "fuck that, last time we did that the most expensive episode got the worst ratings". I hope that does not happen. The show has been so close this season to hitting 4 million, I just really hope the finale can get there, or higher.

On a side note, I was looking at the ratings for the show the Borgias, and it only gets around half a million US views every episode. So compared to that show on Showtime, Game of Thrones is killing it. I am curious though, how is it they can have like a thousand horses in every scene on the Borgias, but Game of Thrones can hardly ever use horses, even when they are terribly needed? Game of Thrones has like 7 times more viewers than the Borgias, on average, so surly Thrones would have a much bigger budget right? I just don't get it, and it's not like the Borgias only spends their budget on horses either, they have pretty good sets and stuff. Can anybody shed some light on this?

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My understanding was HBO signed GoT for three seasons based off the pilot episode. So the budget was set in writing before any ratings were accumulated other than test screenings and such. So the deal is the deal if you know what I'm saying but future seasons will depend on the ratings heavily. I think HBO knows they have a show that is tuff to watch only once so there ON Demand is blowing up the replays and they know it. Its probably working wonders for bringing along HBOGo as well.

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For the atmosphere we need some Turner:

http://www.ibiblio.o.../slave-ship.jpg

And for the light there is Aivazovski:

http://www.russianpa...battle_1848.jpg

For the atmosphere we need some Turner:

http://www.ibiblio.o.../slave-ship.jpg

And for the light there is Aivazovski:

http://www.russianpa...battle_1848.jpg

Woman of War, you rock! Wow I love that Aivazovski, that is great reference!

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I said he got taught the lesson from Davos.I was definitley saying he respected Davos. So much he followed his advice to the wall. Davos knows Stannis about as good as anyone. Who better to judge when he feels like Stannis is going to burn the kid than him. The third death of joffrey happens and three kings have died of which Melisandre foretold. And she is preaching to burn him for his kingsblood and Davos feels Stannis is going to do it and ships him off.

Stannis wasn't going to burn him, in fact the only reason Davos had time to act is because he was opposed to the idea. You think Edric would have lived if Stannis had wanted to burn him? He was véry skeptical on that point and wanted proof the leeches were effective first, and even then you can't say 'he was going to burn him' because he never gave the order. I suppose if we're going to carry this logic we should also lock up everyone who sees a hot girl on the streets and thinks of doing them because hey, they're rapists... They didn't do anything, but they're still rapists, right? After all, you don't have to do something or be certain you're going to do something to be guilty of it...

As for the Azor Ahai bullshit, yeah Stannis is not Azor Ahai. Duh. Doesn't mean he can't kick ass. You think he doesn't know that? The red religion is a means to and end for him, nothing more. It's just a good rallying call, it inspires the troops, and Lightbringer, while not more powerful than another sword, still carries a reputation (see how they melted Ice to have a counterpart to it), so it's just a smart and good move to go along with it even if you don't believe in it. Robb Stark wasn't able to turn into a wolf, but the story still spread fear among his enemies. Garlan Tyrell wasn't the ghost of Renly, but his deception worked as well. It worked, and that's what matters. Ever heard the saying the truth is the first casualty of war? Why do you think Stannnis' few remaining men still follow him with so much conviction? That's where the true power lies.

Edited by StannisandDaeny
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