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[Book Spoilers] EP 209 Discussion

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Well in the books Renly is quite a bit taller then Loras.

It's certainly perfectly logical for it to be Garlan, but it makes more emotional sense for it to be Loras, since he's the one with the deep connection to Renly. Garlan (whom I actually like as a character) is just some dude we've never seen before. I guess that Garlan is probably going to be written out of the series, which is too bad, but hopefully they can give some of his role in the story to Loras - having Loras be respectful to Tyrion and kind to Sansa would be totally reasonable, I think, since he's just kind of a petulant prick in the books.

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Incredible episode really, but not impervious to nitpicking :P

Anyone got the same feeling that book readers got way much more from the episode than non-readers? For instance two examples:

1 - Mandon Moore: Am I the only one that thought that Mandon Moore was poorly introduced, and/or was poorly depicted in the scene where he slashed Tyrion? I mean, if I haven't read the books I wouldn't be sure about who he was. In the middle of all those armors, he din't stand out

2 - Renly ghost: The show made a point of showing Loras in an armor during the fight, but I doubt non book readers would know: 1 - This was Renlys armor 2- This was ANY armor at all.

Leaving these nitpicks behind, awesome episode, easily one of the best from GOT

I thought the kingsguard armor stood out from everyone else and Tyrion gave a relaxed look and didn't try to attack him or anything. I think they will be talking about Renlys ghost in upcoming episodes so those who didn't pick up on it will figure it out Edited by Arbor Gold I'm Sold

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That's a good one. The one I picked up had to do with Varys and Tyrion.

I think he was being honest. Melisandre's magic is indeed very dark, and we know that Varys' loyalties are to the Targaryen family. I think that we got a hint on that front:

What is he getting at? Perhaps it's just having discovered Varys' loyalties in ADWD, but it definitely hit me as a hint in that direction, since we know Aerys had a thing for Tyrion's mother, and there are other hints as well that Tyrion might have Targaryen blood. I looked in the books to see if that scene was there, and found this instead:

I don't think it was about the Targaryens. I think it had to do with his manhood be choppped off to serve the dark arts

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What an episode. Sophie Turner was MAGNIFICENT. As per usual, she kills every scene she's in. Both the devious insousciance with Joffrey and the terror when talking with Cersei--nailed it. I like that Sansa is basically this brave, angelic counterpart to the cynical, world-weary Cersei. While Cersei is losing it and attacking Lancel, Sansa thinks of the others and tries to buoy their spirits. What a queenly thing to do. Magnificent.

Oh, and I guess there was some green pyrotechnics, a manly Baratheon, and a catchy little tune too...

Edited by Dragon of Valyria

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I liked that they used Loras for the Renly's Ghost scene, as that always made more sense than using Garlan. I know Martin wanted to be accurate as Renly had Robert's large build, so sticking Loras' slight body in big green armor wouldn't fit, but they could have explained it away. Painted or tinted some armor green to make a facsimile, stuffed the armor with leather or cloth to make it fit, something.

Mandon Moore was mishandled. He very obviously made a go at Tyrion, and did it in front of witnesses. Even in the din of battle, the books handled the awkwardness of murdering the Hand by having it be a private affair on some boats. Also you can't tell the white/gold armor as none of it stood out besides the helm. I could tell since I read the books, but I wonder about the noobs.

Everything else was cool. I still think they needed the chain as one boat with wildfire shouldn't have been enough to force a landing. Many ships with wildfire, as well as ballista and catapults with the green explosive forced Stannis to land, along with the chain. What they gave us didn't explain the chain away, oh well.

Tactically, no Stannis shouldn't have charged up the ladder. You hang back and engage when you think the turning point is come. Just how Tywin does things. Still badass, though.

The lack of horses sucked during Tyrion's charge, but I guess that was a budget concern. The halfman's wedge didn't come to fruition, although the chopping at the knee cap was a nice way to make up for it.

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The battle itself was amazing. No chain but blowing up the Blackwater more than made up for it. The fighting itself was intesne and bloody and they wisely moved Stannis to the battlefield in this one. I liked how he was incapable of giving a great speech, just "Come with me and take this city!"

I wouldn't call him "incapable" of giving a great speech. Stannis is a direct man. I loved the way he said that sentence in such a matter-of-fact manner.

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Ser Dontos still exists! He's a terrible juggler.

Here's something subtle. Check out the scene where Joffrey tells Mandon Moore to represent the King on the battlefield. Moore nods, and they both glance at Tyrion. In the book, it's never made clear exactly who sent Ser Moore after Tyrion (Tyrion thinks it's Cersei). Just like the showwriters had Joffrey and not Cersei give the order to kill Robert's bastards, it looks like they also had Joffrey give the order to kill Tyrion! In fact, Joffrey only leaves the battle because he gets cold feet... it seems like Joffrey's original plan might have been to do in his uncle himself (with Moore providing backup support if things got hectic). And then have Sansa kiss the bloody sword.

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Holy shit, that episode was great. I just watched it twice on HBO GO, back-to-back. I think I might watch it again, on my TV On Demand tomorrow (so it doesn't eat up too much data).

What can I say? The Varys exposition was a little slow, but really improved on the second watch-through. The wildfire explosion was fucking amazing on both watch-throughs - poor Davos. Stannis is a complete badass, first on to the beach, first up the ladder, fighting several guys at once on the ledge. We never get to see that in the books, because all of his personal fighting in the battles happens off-screen. Sansa and Cersei both nailed it (and I loved the weird sexual tension that was between the Hound and Sansa, like in the books).

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She definitely said 4. In the books she and Jaime are 9 years older, so Tyrion has been aged up, which seems like more rehab is going to be done to Cersei's character. The Red Viper tells Tyrion about how Cersei twisted baby Tyrion's penis: certainly a 4 year old won't be doing that. I hope. :ack:

Similarly, I don't think that Cersei and Jaime's mom will catch them "playing" and try to separate them before she dies.

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Does anyone else feel like the actor playing Loras evolved dramatically from S1 to S2? It's almost like it's a different person (and i'll be really embarrassed if someone comes in right now with "duh, you fucking idiot. they recast him.").

He seemed like such an androgen in S1 and not nearly as much here (not just tonight's episode, but the middle episodes too).

Who is an "androgen"? I thought it referred to male sex hormones, but you seem to have used it in an entirely different context. Or perhaps, did you mean "androgynous"?

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Just to echo what others have said, wow what an episode. Neil Marshall and George RR Martin need to do the red wedding, the two of them knocked it out of the park. The buildup and pacing were expertly done and so many characters shined.

The show actually got me to read the books. Right after Catelyn took Tyrion hostage in season 1, I went out and bought book 1 and I crushed all 5 before the second season even started! :) Now I am really enjoying the show that much more knowing the depth of the books. The adapation stuff doesn't bother me at all, I guess since I came in as a fan from the show to begin with (and also I know how bad most adaptations are). I think they have done a brilliant job keeping the essence of the books and the entire cast and crew really deserve the upmost praise for it.

I just re-started Clash of Kings, this time with the Roy Doltrice audio books, so I'm getting to enjoy it in a third awesome way :) I'm glad I read it first, but the audio books are a great way to come back to them, since I can get work done while listening :) Looking forward to posting more on this forum

-Will

Edited by WillH

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This was a really great episode, and I am really surprised how well the battle measured up to those filmed with a much bigger budget (such as Helm's Deep or Pelennor Fields). It was superbly done. I cannot see how they could've done the battle more justice on the show's budget. For that alone this episode should be given an award.

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A visceral episode. Before airing I was concerned that there were no real stakes for viewers since Stannis' character has been underdeveloped. But three characters absolutely saved it: Tyrion, Sansa and the Hound. The stories of those three were so well done that they raised the stakes. Tyrion has always had a well-written story but Sansa and the Hound have been given scraps really. But with Blackwater both had solid emotional arcs and the actors both nailed it. The Hound was especially good, to see that fear of the flames and all his courage desert him was incredible. I know everyone is banging on about GRRM writing this episode and I don't buy the argument that the other writers aren't up to scratch. But GRRM "gets" Sansa and the Hound in a way that the other writers don't.

I should add that I don't give a damn about the "SanSan" thing which I find irritating in the extreme. I believe that Sansa serves another purpose for the Hound, their joint story is not about any sort of relationship, but I won't go into that here, it's more of a book discussion.

There's a few loose ends which will be cleared up next week (Tywin, Tyrell, Mandon Moore). It would have been great to have this as a two-hour season finale and when I watch this back on DVD in the future I'm sure that's how I'll view it.

Excellent.

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I’m less overwhelmed by the fighting scenes than many others. I understand the limitations of budget, but the infantry skirmishes always feel like brawls, not epic battles between trained soldiers.

Otherwise, a fine hour of television. TV-Stannis is not book-Stannis (who is calm and stubborn, not fierce), but it worked here.

I think Tywin’s final line could have been something better, instead of having him state the obvious, that they won. That’s beneath Tywin. He should have scolded Cersei for sitting the in throne, or something. “Why is not King Joffrey sitting the Iron Throne?”

The first Castameres (in the bar) was musically competent and proper for the period.

Loras seems be become a composite character of Loras and Garlan.

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QFT.

Favorite part? Practically impossible to choose.

Easy. Stannis chopping the top of a guy's head off. I literally went OOOH YEEAAH ^^

How are they going to get Stannis out of there? He is still on the battlements when Tywin gets there?

The same way he got *on* the battlements. The road back to the ships will be littered with guys who have their brains cut out ^^

Stannis' sword had no light nor heat. I guess Martin wanted to remind us again that either its a false Lightbringer or he's a false messiah.

Lightbringer would have looked cool but would cost a lot of money to do I think, not to mention George was making a clear point showing Stannis murderate so many guys (after all he did write it), some of it would have been lost if it had been clear he was using a magical sword I think.

Rory McCann slew both literally and figuratively, easily the best actor in this episode IMO. The Rains of Castamere was a great addition as well.

This easily beats huge CGI battles the likes of Lotr and Narnia. The men vomiting, the tension before the battle, the Hound's fear... the screaming men, the horrible way people get killed (like the guy getting his head knocked off), it captured the sense of a *real* battle and reminds us that soldiers and warriors are people and war is a horrible thing for both sides rather than the 'happy battle' scenes that are more popular / common.

Edited by StannisandDaeny

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Legendary. Magnificent. Epic. Wonderful. Anything else?

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Perhaps Renly's armor was not meant to be a plot point for the show, but just inserted subtly for book readers to enjoy...

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