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[Book Spoilers] EP 209 Discussion

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I know Joffrey is a little beast, but I couldn't help feeling a little sorry for him after seeing how terrified he was when Stannis' army started to land.

For all of his psychopathy, he is still a child, and he doesn't know anything about the reality of war.

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Well, that much is true. Much of my sympathy for him being only a kid is lost however because of his repeated claims he is going to kill Stannis and Robb personally - in the books he even wants to face Robb in a duel. Among the levies raised at Lannisport were probably people around his age who fought and died to defend his crimes as well. I'm not saying 'child soldiers' are a good thing, yet it seems like a 'common' thing in Westerosi warfare especially when the need for men is high. Squires commonly partake in battle at their Ser's side as well as aspiring lords. Think back on Cley Cerwyn (14 years old) who lead his House against Theon-occupied Winterfell out of sheer necessity and got killed in the battle against the Boltons, for example. Or Podrick who is even younger and already in the thick of it.

Edited by StannisandDaeny

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The Wildfire explosion was brilliant-I do think Tyrions role in the defence was underplayed though without the chain and wildmen.

Im glad they left out Renlys ghost-confused me for ages and missed the fact that Jamie figured out it was Loras brother (?) in AFFC on my first read through.

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Rewatched the episode and got so hype about it had to do a Stannis painting. It's still really rough but wanted to share its progress and see what ya'll think. Tried to give Lightbringer some glow to it.

http://wharris.files...isthemannis.jpg

\

:bowdown: This is gorgeous. Please finish it. You are extremely talented.

I know Joffrey is a little beast, but I couldn't help feeling a little sorry for him after seeing how terrified he was when Stannis' army started to land.

For all of his psychopathy, he is still a child, and he doesn't know anything about the reality of war.

I attribute my feeling sorry for him to Jack Gleeson's super awesome acting. He's playing such a despicable human being, but when the time calls for it he can really pull off the childlike insecurity and fearfulness of Joff that almost tricks us into feeling bad for him. Its very subtle and that's one of the reasons why Jack Gleeson is such a damn good actor. Of course, two or three minutes later you remember this is JOFF and you are like "just die already" :P

Just wanted to come back to express my love for this episode again. Really superb. I must know the story on how Varys got cut!

Edited by Chelly

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I think the complaint is that a king would not lead the charge (even Robb is surrounded by his own men). I say in my post that my complaints are all moot because it is all coming from the source, but it still seemed out of place. I think it was a classic "give them a show" scene. Why would we want to see some bannerman storming the shores and climbing the walls?

I had the same initial reaction as you. In the books we are told over and over again that Robert (not Stannis) would have been the one to lead the charge over the wall, kill most of his enemies and then make friends with those still left alive). So I was initially surprised they went that way with his character. However, I changed my mind for two reasons a) We don't really get a Stannis POV so who's to say how he thinks on the inside. and B) The non book reader reaction to Stannis makes me thing this is a good look for him. All they've heard from Stannis up to this point is whining about the throne should be his and some underhanded sorcery used to accomplish his victories thus far. Him leading the charge shows how much he himself is willing to do to get his throne back.

It also is supported by Davos' emphasis on him attempting to do it without the Melisandre's aide which I felt was understated in the book.

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I have to agree, WillH--your painting really captures the tone and mood.

Thinking about the Sansa/Hound scene, and after a rewatch, I'm actually glad they left out the song. Firstly, in a very battley episode, there were long stretches of talk: Cersei and Sansa, Cersei and Tommen, Tyrion and Varys, Tyrion and Bronn, Sansa and Shae, opening scene with Tyrion and Shae. I think that late in the battle when things were getting really dire, it would have slowed things down. But more importantly, while it worked in the drawn-out pace of the book, it would not have translated well to the compressed hour and the visual aspect of TV. I mean, hasn't poor Sansa been bullied enough by the Lannister monsters? "Kiss my sword," "You're gonna get raped," "The man who chopped off your father's head is going to chop off yours," "Sing for me." Cripes, the poor little creature's mind would have cracked in two. At that point, I would have run into the throne room and licked the poison off the floor to get away from their constant humiliating demands.

Oh, p.s., halfway through the episode, my viewing companion sneered, "So it's 'Saving Private Tyrion'." Remind me not to watch with smallfolk.

Edited by Gran de Lys

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I know Joffrey is a little beast, but I couldn't help feeling a little sorry for him after seeing how terrified he was when Stannis' army started to land.

For all of his psychopathy, he is still a child, and he doesn't know anything about the reality of war.

I didn't feel sorry for him at all - mostly because of his brashness about giving Stannis a smile, making Sansa kiss his sword....he was the one living in the dreams rather than Sansa. Then he really gets to see what war is like and realizes it isn't a fairytale. he is an 18ish year old young man playing at King.

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Thanks StannisandDaeny, Chelly, and Gran de Lys, I will definitely finish it, can't leave Stannis hanging after all he's been through. :)

Plus all the rowing dudes that I painted in really badly are really bugging me! lol :)

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Tywin coming into the throne room and announcing victory was legendary.

Stannis was particularly impressive in this episode (though it is clearly stated that neither he or Tywin lead from the front during battles in the books). But that's why I love these GRRM penned episodes; it allows him to update the occurrences of the novels. Stannis getting right in the thick of things, at least to me, seems more like what I would expect from him.

Edited by Axon

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I know Joffrey is a little beast, but I couldn't help feeling a little sorry for him after seeing how terrified he was when Stannis' army started to land.

For all of his psychopathy, he is still a child, and he doesn't know anything about the reality of war.

\

:bowdown: This is gorgeous. Please finish it. You are extremely talented.

I attribute my feeling sorry for him to Jack Gleeson's super awesome acting. He's playing such a despicable human being, but when the time calls for it he can really pull off the childlike insecurity and fearfulness of Joff that almost tricks us into feeling bad for him. Its very subtle and that's one of the reasons why Jack Gleeson is such a damn good actor. Of course, two or three minutes later you remember this is JOFF and you are like "just die already" :P

Just wanted to come back to express my love for this episode again. Really superb. I must know the story on how Varys got cut!

I didn't feel sorry for him at all - mostly because of his brashness about giving Stannis a smile, making Sansa kiss his sword....he was the one living in the dreams rather than Sansa. Then he really gets to see what war is like and realizes it isn't a fairytale. he is an 18ish year old young man playing at King.

What is brilliant about Gleeson's acting and Martin's writing is that it humanised Joff. Joff is an awful awful person but still a human who has the same fears as any one of us. Just like

in the PW when Joff was choking. Its still hard to watch someone who is in the process of dieing and terrified of it. Made him appear human.

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Good EP> Strange they did not jump between storylines. Sad at first but

.looking forward to my favs next week! This series is eating a huge chunk of my

time i have watched every episode more than 3x's and still lern something here

and there. Books are a definite after this series , trust me. :bowdown:

An even more effective time-suck. I have reread the words off the pages and made so many margin notes I have no more margins. And then I had to go find Hedge Knight I and II. And read (or reread) other GRRM work including one which has the embryo of Tyrion in it (UNINTENTIONAL EASTER EGG!! since GRRM thought of that character when making Tyrion) BUt rereading aSoIaF is better than reading a new Patricia Cornwell.

Marie

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Im glad they left out Renlys ghost

It wasn't left out Ser Robert, just very subtle implemented at the end. But blink and you miss it. The leader of the Tyrell/Lannister vanguard on the white horse is Loras (instead of Garlan) in Renly's armor. Tyrion sees him before losing consciousness, which gives it a nice surreal touch imho. And later we see Loras take off the antler helmet and a thousand LOREAL Westeros macros are born. :laugh:

Edited by ambi76

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Without them showing Sansa meeting with Dontos in the godswood, and him "planning to take her home", it was a little weird that she didn't go with Sandor. Especially because he said he would keep her safe and take her home to Winterfell. I mean right after that, Sansa said you won't hurt me, as a statement, so of she didn't think Sandor would hurt her, then why not go with him?

She didn't go with him because she was convinced the city had been sacked, and Shae told her that Stannis wouldn't hurt her. The Hound is scary and drunk and talks to her about his love of killing in an earlier episode.

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I loved this episode, and it was finally an episode my boyfriend liked, who had been hating it all season (sort of like me). Well, he has never really liked it so much since Ned and Robert died. He felt like they were the only "manly guys" in the show (people who actually fight in battle), and this episode we saw a lot of Bronn and The Hound and he became interested in their story (and Stannis until I told him that in the books he didn't actually fight - maybe I should have left that out since Stannis is one of my favorite characters)...wondering out loud where Sandor goes, actually LAUGHING at dialogue for I think the first time all season. I know it was a war so it may be a little easier to get into it, but from an Unsullied, he noticed the different writing, the better dialogue, a shift of focus on more interesting characters...I was so happy! And this is only the second time all season that I have done re-watches of an episode. In the first season, I would re-watch every episode like 4 times...

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I had the same initial reaction as you. In the books we are told over and over again that Robert (not Stannis) would have been the one to lead the charge over the wall, kill most of his enemies and then make friends with those still left alive). So I was initially surprised they went that way with his character. However, I changed my mind for two reasons a) We don't really get a Stannis POV so who's to say how he thinks on the inside. and B) The non book reader reaction to Stannis makes me thing this is a good look for him. All they've heard from Stannis up to this point is whining about the throne should be his and some underhanded sorcery used to accomplish his victories thus far. Him leading the charge shows how much he himself is willing to do to get his throne back.

It also is supported by Davos' emphasis on him attempting to do it without the Melisandre's aide which I felt was understated in the book.

As was mentioned, he does in Book 3 complain that Lightbringer doesn't kill people better then a normal sword, so I'm assuming he was getting his hands dirt at Blackwater in the books too. I don't think he was first one on the walls, but it's much smaller scaled in the books and we don't have any named characters left on his side so I think it's justified.

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  • Only one gratuitous nude scene with some random wench.

Shes not random though! People complain about Ros and how ros has so much screen time, The whore on bronns lap is the same one from: Pycells chamber, ros's sadness replacement, Ros training partner, the one ros beat.

It seems like there are only 2 whores in kings landing Ros, and this girl. What is her name?

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Nope - the one on Bronn's lap is not the same character.

she's the one that had umm...fluids on her face, correct?

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