Possible theory about Jojen Reed?

[The Crannogman]

I see no reason to simply throw this theory out. There's no concrete evidence that Howland Reed even exists, so he could be anyone. Hell, he could be a wight. He could be Daenerys. He could be Jojen. He could be a rabbit. I, however, like the idea that he's Jojen. It makes a weird sort of sense. I'm not saying it's provable through textual evidence we've had so far, but it would make sense. Why would Howland Reed be sitting in a swamp twiddling his thumbs? If R+L=J, Jon's gotta find out at some point. It would make sense for Jojen-Howland to be there already, rather than Howland starting to make his way up now. If he isn't Jojen, he's certainly late to the party.

Some good points for the theory. I like it :D

Some really good points here. We know next to nothing about Howland. And the "little grandfather" nick name has me wondering now if Jojen may really be Howland. I guess it's not too terribly far fetched. It would be interesting to do a re-read of Bran's Reed chapters through this lens. The more I think about it, the more I could see this happening. Not sure how I would feel about it though.

[deleted01]

Some really good points here. We know next to nothing about Howland. And the "little grandfather" nick name has me wondering now if Jojen may really be Howland. I guess it's not too terribly far fetched. It would be interesting to do a re-read of Bran's Reed chapters through this lens. The more I think about it, the more I could see this happening. Not sure how I would feel about it though.

Yeah, this theory does make sense in a weird kind of way :lol: I really like it. It would be good to know Howland Reed wasn't sitting on his arse for all these years, he has actually been helping his old friend Ned by showing his son the way to the '3-eyed crow', and now possibly helping Jon learn his true parentage. I'm not sure how he does it, by being so young, but I like some of the ideas being thrown around here.

Remember, those who first thought of R+L=J probably thought it was far-fetched too. I wouldn't be surprised if we could dig up some possible evidence for this theory, or if some was to come in the next book. Howland Reed hasn't been kept so secret for no reason.

[Maester Reek]

i also think this is a very intriguing theory...... why does jojen seem to be the only one of their party who is getting slower and weaker? there is bran whos a cripple hodor whos hodor meera a girl and jojen a young boy should be having the easiest time out of all of them shouldnt he? why would he be getting any less food than meera hodor or bran?

[The Crannogman]

Very true. I am definitely going to investigate this more because now I am way too curious. The crannogmen are (obviously) my favorites, particularly due to the amount of mystery surrounding them. And I agree that Howland is most likely not sitting around Greywater Watch doing nothing. IIRC, Rob sent some bannermen (and women) to go find him and we have heard nothing from them since. I guess it is always possible that he is plotting something with them and indeed NOT in disguise as Jojen. Time for another re-read.

[Darth Vader's Bastard]

When it's later revealed that Jojen is Howland, just remember I told ya so.

I'm currently on my second read of Clash of Kings and this theory actually just popped into my head. Right after I rad the passage where Old Nan refers to Jojen as "little grandfather." Got me thinking about how he is 'dying' in DwD, and perhaps he is simply dying of old age.

[Quentyn the Blazed]

On the wiki, it says Jojen nearly died of greyscale as a kid but was saved by a three-eyed crow.

Greyscale seems to be much more important than you are initially made to think. The wildings know the mark of greyscale is death, maybe because north of the wall the others are able to take advantage of the disease. This could be why Jojen is so much weaker than his friends, the greyscale was irritated by the WWs

But i dont think he is Howland, remember he also said that he must now go to the isle of faces, much like his dad did back in the day

[Arionis]

Crackpot time...

Rather than reverse ageing or magical hiding, what if the crannogmen have a different sort of immortality? The Knight of the Laughing Tree and Reed saving Ned from Dayne don't make much sense from an isolated bunch of swamp dwellers that use their knowledge and mastery of their land to fight. But what if they had a leader who HAD learnt the ways of war, in the past. And a bunch of warriors who had, for several lifetimes, fought in the same swamps? Wouldn't hundreds of years of experience explain their prowess in keeping out invaders, and if Reed was hundreds of years old and had trained elsewhere in the past, it'd explain his abilities in combat.

Of course, why doesn't anyone notice? And why is Jojen "little grandfather" and a kid?

What if they practice reincarnation? But not the "forget past life" version, but rather are literally reborn as their old selves?

It'd explain why Howland hadn't left The Neck for so many years... He died and was growing back to the sort of age where it was viable. The flesh is different (and may or may not be Howland's biological offspring), but the mind is the same.

You mean like a phoenix?

[Archibald Norrey]

This is certainly creative...

[Ciazio]

I'd be very disappointed if Jojen turned out to be Howland Reed, unless GRRM has some good explanation(s). :cool4:

BUT... if I have to let my fantasy run very very very wildly I'd say:

Do we know any adult who survived greyscale? IIRC we only know children marked by the plague.

An explanation might be that surviving greyscale in the childhood leaves you a child. As long as you live.

This might even explain why Howland was able to help Ned against Arthur Dayne. Why worry about a child?

Ok, you can beat me now :uhoh:

[Caligula_K2]

I'm pretty convinced that Jojen is dead and that Bran eats him in his weirwood paste in ADWD. So, I don't think he's Howland Reed/aging backwards. Poor Jojen.

[Jon WintryMix]

Crackpot time...

Rather than reverse ageing or magical hiding, what if the crannogmen have a different sort of immortality? The Knight of the Laughing Tree and Reed saving Ned from Dayne don't make much sense from an isolated bunch of swamp dwellers that use their knowledge and mastery of their land to fight. But what if they had a leader who HAD learnt the ways of war, in the past. And a bunch of warriors who had, for several lifetimes, fought in the same swamps? Wouldn't hundreds of years of experience explain their prowess in keeping out invaders, and if Reed was hundreds of years old and had trained elsewhere in the past, it'd explain his abilities in combat.

Of course, why doesn't anyone notice? And why is Jojen "little grandfather" and a kid?

What if they practice reincarnation? But not the "forget past life" version, but rather are literally reborn as their old selves?

It'd explain why Howland hadn't left The Neck for so many years... He died and was growing back to the sort of age where it was viable. The flesh is different (and may or may not be Howland's biological offspring), but the mind is the same.

This is indeed a crackpot theory but intriguing nonetheless. I like it much better than the Benjamin Button idea. In fact, it is not too far off from the whole "warging" concept. If a character could permantly warg himself into a newborn child or (less sinister) a person on their deathbed, then reincarnation is little more than an extension of the abilities already discussed in relation to Varamir Six Skins and his temporary life after death. Likewise, many people assume that Jon is not truly dead but will reinhabit his body is some way. I think there might be enough there for GRRM to pull it off.

[Grimwolfe]

what if howlands turned into a tree...you know, for the lols

[dha]

Howland Reed being Jojen is a favorite theory of mine as well. Subtle clues such as Little Grandfather as mentioned above.

Additionally, there is a precedence for this type of aging as seen in AFFC--Waif in the House of Black and White.

"The Waif is a priest of the Many-Faced God in the House of Black and White. She does not give her name. She wears a robe with a cowl of black on the right side white on the left side. She appears to be a young girl, however she is 36 years old."

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Waif

It's explained that the poisons Waif's stepmother subjected her to inhibited her aging. The Crannogmen are also known to dabble in poisons. Too much of a leap? Maybe, but some circumstantial evidence that would suggest Jojen is Howland. The better question, what does Howland gain by masquerading himself as Jojen?

[Ciazio]

what if howlands turned into a tree...you know, for the lols

That would make him a greenseer, connected to a weirwood and you know... greenseers cannont move from their tree if they become tangled like Bloodraven... WAIT. It does make sense.

Might be... why not?

It's explained that the poisons Waif's stepmother subjected her to inhibited her aging. The Crannogmen are also known to dabble in poisons. Too much of a leap? Maybe, but some circumstantial evidence that would suggest Jojen is Howland. The better question, what does Howland gain by masquerading himself as Jojen?

That's an evidence better than mine relating the non-ageing Jojen to greyscale.

[Jolene Brown]

I'm wondering why Meera and Jojen seem to have such an attitude change when they finally get to the cave. I know the journey was harsh and difficult but it was their idea, and they've made it, against all the odds, so you might expect them to be a bit triumphant, and yet they both seem rather bitter and Jojen is frequently described as sullen. Once they are in the cave itself, it seems like they have access to food and they are out of the cold, so why are they so upset? It seems to me like they were expecting something different... but what? I'm really curious about what they were hoping for vs. what they got.

[Ravenhair]

I like this theory since I haven't seen it mentioned before.

@Jolene Brown--it's been awhile since I did a re-read of these chapters, but it seemed to me that Meera and Jojen are somewhat bitter because they both know Jojen's death is imminent. Bran does not seem to know this, though, which is curious given his green seeing ability, but maybe he's still honing his skills.

[Quentyn the Blazed]

That's an evidence better than mine relating the non-ageing Jojen to greyscale.

Could be Howland got greyscale, so traveled to the isle of faces (because of a dream?). There, the CoT give him "poisons" that save him from the greyscale but also stop his aging

[Dr. Pepper]

I think it's important to note that Jojen doesn't say he was afflicted by greyscale, but by greywater fever. Now these two illnesses could be similar or even the same, but with every other greyscale character, they have visual scaring and scaling while Jojen does not have this.

[Quentyn the Blazed]

In the wiki it says he almost died of greyscale fever. anybdy got the quote from book?

[Dr. Pepper]

“When I was little I almost died of greywater fever. That was when the crow came to me.”