How many wildlings and Westerosi are there?

[Ferrous]

If the Iron Islands is the size of Ireland, how large is Dragonstone?

Since Dragonstone is a volcanic island would have fertile soil? Or would it be too rocky for that?

Stannis would have gathered most of the military potential of Dragonstone.

[OrcusOfUndeath]

I think that would be stretching it. He was claiming the glory, hence he was talking about the charge of his knights that broke the wildlings.

Weren't those men knights thought? He said he had more than a thousand mounted fighters, as I recall. There had to be more men.

If the Iron Islands is the size of Ireland, how large is Dragonstone?

Since Dragonstone is a volcanic island would have fertile soil? Or would it be too rocky for that?

Stannis would have gathered most of the military potential of Dragonstone.

Hawaii, for example, are volcanic islands, and they have fertile soil. And I think that Dragonstone is about that size. And then add Driftmark to that as well ...

[Free Northman]

Weren't those men knights thought? He said he had more than a thousand mounted fighters, as I recall. There had to be more men.

Hawaii, for example, are volcanic islands, and they have fertile soil. And I think that Dragonstone is about that size. And then add Driftmark to that as well ...

In truth, I don't recall. I do seem to remember that he mostly had just his knights left, and little else.

Certainly, when he marched south to Deepwood Motte, he only had about 1500 men left.

[OrcusOfUndeath]

In truth, I don't recall. I do seem to remember that he mostly had just his knights left, and little else.

Certainly, when he marched south to Deepwood Motte, he only had about 1500 men left.

With or without the northern mountain clans?

[Free Northman]

With or without the northern mountain clans?

Before he reached the Mountain Clans.

[Yuri Targaryen]

GrrM said that Westeros is nearly the same size as south america, so iron islands = size of ireland or britain.

But Westeros is quite smaller than South America. Based on the Wall, from there to Dorne, is 4,800 km, the distance between Portugal and the Urals. Iron Islands, would be smaller than Ireland.

BTW, I read the whole thread and agree with the relation between Westeros-Medieval Europe. I've actually made my own estimations over the size and population of the continent:

Hi, guys I've came with my own estimations, based in historical data for Europe, and the information we have from the books, of course.

Based on the size of the Wall, I got 4,900 km between the wall and the Dorne's shores (the distance between Lisbon and the Urals, Russia). Therefore, the size of the Seven Kingdoms is between 7,000,000-7,500,000 km². The population, 50,000,000, As divided:

North --- 3,000,000 km² --- 6,000,000 inhabitants --- 2 inh/km² density

South --- 4,200,000 km² --- 44,000,000 inhabitants --- 10,5 inh/km² density

--- Vale --- 600,000 --- 3,500,000 --- 5,8

--- Riverlands --- 600,000 --- 8,500,000 --- 14,2

--- Westerlands ---- 500,000 --- 6,000,000 --- 12

--- Crownlands ---- 200,000 --- 5,000,000 --- 25

--- Stormlands --- 600,000 --- 5,000,000 --- 8,3

--- Reach --- 900,000 --- 13,500,000 --- 15

--- Dorne --- 800,000 --- 2,500,000 --- 3,1

And the Iron Islands, 40,000 km², 400,000 inhabitants, 10 people/km² density.

What do you think? Did I get it right?

And the Wildling population would be around 200,000-300,000, I believe.

[Free Northman]

But Westeros is quite smaller than South America. Based on the Wall, from there to Dorne, is 4,800 km, the distance between Portugal and the Urals. Iron Islands, would be smaller than Ireland.

BTW, I read the whole thread and agree with the relation between Westeros-Medieval Europe. I've actually made my own estimations over the size and population of the continent:

And the Wildling population would be around 200,000-300,000, I believe.

I saw your previous estimate, and agree to a large extent.

A few points of disagreement:

The Crownlands have nowhere near 5 million people. I believe it is stated somewhere that the Crownlands essentially have the 500,000 in Kings Landing, and another 500,000 or so in the surrounding countryside. It must be remembered that Kings Landing isn't fed just by the Crownlands. It is supported with resources from the Riverlands and as far away as the Reach. It is therefore far larger than just the area it is based in would warrant. So you don't need enough peasants in the Crownlands to feed a city of 500,000 people. They import most of their food from the other kingdoms, as became evident when the Rose Road and the King's Road to the Riverlands was closed by the war. King's Landing began to starve.

So the Crownlands are at 1 million, not 5 million.

Next, the Stormlands are strongly suggested by Martin to have the lowest population after Dorne (of course excluding the Iron Islands).

To quote Martin directly, the Stormlands have ''lots of rocks and rain and trees."

So I would say that the 5 million estimate for the Stormlands should go down to about 3.5 million.

I think you overestimate the Riverlands and underestimate the Vale somewhat and would put the Riverlands equivalent to the Westerlands in total population.

In general, these changes would drop the total population of Westeros from 50 million to the region of 40 million or thereabouts.

But in general, I'd say you're pretty close to the answer.

I would have it:

North - 6 million

Vale - 4.5 million

Riverlands - 6 million

Westerlands - 6 million

Crownlands - 1 million

Stormlands - 3.5 million

Reach - 12 million

Dorne - 3 million

Total - 42 million

[aryagonnakill]

are the iron islands not considered a kingdom?

[Yuri Targaryen]

^^

Yes, they are. I let them outside because I was uneasy about their population. Their geography doesn't seem to fit, it's quite peculiar.

I saw your previous estimate, and agree to a large extent.

A few points of disagreement:

(...)

Thank you for the insight. I've just finished read the books, and as you can see, I'm a new on this forum, so I'm rather learning.

Anyhow, about the Crownlands, I agree with your analysis: King's Landing, as a capital, drains its vitality from all parts of the realm. However, I'm a little bit uneasy with your 1,000,000 figure population. This would mean, excluding the capital itself, a 2.5 people/km²; density, similar to the North's. Maybe 5 million is too much, but less than 3 million doesn't seem to fit.

Stormlands, well, we don't get much information from the books neither from the Wiki, so I'll take your (Martin's) word.

Riverlands seems to be a very populated and fertile land, full of lords, tradition, past glory (Harrenhal), served by this huge river basin. Maybe, it would have a density similar to Westerlands', and we could give some of this extra people to the Iron Islands (those are the hardest to guess). Also, with all its gold, a equally populated Westerlands would easily overpower Riverlands.

About the Vale, I don't know, I got some sort of distant and backward landscape, maybe similar to Austria-Hungary in the XIX century compared to the rest of Europe. They got some wildling tribes as well, so I got the impression the region was not that populated.

What do you think of this figures, keeping the 50,000,000 for the sake of the proportionality:

--- North --- 3,000,000 km² --- 6,500,000 inh --- 2,2 inh/km²;

--- Iron Islands --- 50,000 --- 500,000 --- 10

--- Vale --- 600,000 --- 3,500,000 --- 5,8

--- Riverlands --- 600,000 --- 8,500,000 --- 14,2

--- Westerlands ---- 500,000 --- 7,000,000 --- 14

--- Crownlands ---- 200,000 --- 3,000,000 --- 15

--- Stormlands --- 600,000 --- 3,500,000 --- 5,8

--- Reach --- 900,000 --- 14,500,000 --- 16,1

--- Dorne --- 800,000 --- 3,000,000 --- 3,7

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to the discussion, someone mentioned Riverlands were depopulated by the war, implying the peasants took part on the war as a whole. I don't agree.

We should keep in mind the battles took place in the region, and the armies freely attacked civilians (ACOK, ASOS, AFFC) which explains such destruction and depopulation. With 100,000 men armies walking around, the death toll counting diseases could hit hundreds of thousands, not to mention the displacements, reaching similar figures. 1,000,000 people missing wouldn't be unexpected.

[OrcusOfUndeath]

Could the Reach really be that densely inhabited? I know its the most populated, but isn't 14.500.000 stretching it a bit?

[Ernestm]

They are one of the major producers of food so it would seem fit that the Reach has a higher population, I would have to agree with the estimation in which The Reach is 14.5 million people.

[oscarinfw]

I think GRMM was more interested in character/story development and did not really think through all the aspects of the logistics of land size, travel distance, ability to mobilize levies, keep standing armies supplied, population densities supported by the climate, etc... so most of this thread's discussions on Westeros populations and supportable army sizes are pointless.

So are all threads on a fictional series for that matter... :cool4:

[OrcusOfUndeath]

They are one of the major producers of food so it would seem fit that the Reach has a higher population, I would have to agree with the estimation in which The Reach is 14.5 million people.

Well, I know, but having more than twice the population of any other region sounds really too much to me.

I think GRMM was more interested in character/story development and did not really think through all the aspects of the logistics of land size, travel distance, ability to mobilize levies, keep standing armies supplied, population densities supported by the climate, etc... so most of this thread's discussions on Westeros populations and supportable army sizes are pointless.

So are all threads on a fictional series for that matter... :cool4:

Is that why he is releasing "The World of Ice and Fire"? If you are not interested in discussion, why are you here?

[Yuri Targaryen]

• 
  Well, I know, but having more than twice the population of any other region sounds really too much to me.
  

But did you notice the densities I assigned to? It's pretty much the same of Riverlands, Westerlands and Crownlands. There's no indication Reach would be less dense than those regions, on the contrary.

[OrcusOfUndeath]

• 
  

But did you notice the densities I assigned to? It's pretty much the same of Riverlands, Westerlands and Crownlands. There's no indication Reach would be less dense than those regions, on the contrary.

I see. It seems ok then. I guess we'll get the solid info when "The World of Ice and Fire" is out.

[BinkyBonks]

Sorry, but whoever thinks Westeros has a population of 40 million is either not reading the books or needs to redo Kindergarten.

A population of 5 million for the whole of Westeros would be a better reflection of the book. Westeros isn't Medieval Europe. We've established that its system of drafting peasants into the army is closer to Ancient Rome. The only way you can get the numbers to work (assuming 5% of the population being drafted) is by assuming a population of the order of 5 million. Double that if you insist on 5% of male population rather total population.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Sorry, but whoever thinks Westeros has a population of 40 million is either not reading the books or needs to redo Kindergarten.

A population of 5 million for the whole of Westeros would be a better reflection of the book. Westeros isn't Medieval Europe. We've established that its system of drafting peasants into the army is closer to Ancient Rome. The only way you can get the numbers to work (assuming 5% of the population being drafted) is by assuming a population of the order of 5 million. Double that if you insist on 5% of male population rather total population.

Interesting. That would put the population density closer to Antarctica than any settled continent at any time...

[BinkyBonks]

Is that particle enough for you? Then again, a 10 second google search could have told you that and you wouldn't need to insult people to make your argument.

Indeed, a 10 second Google search might be enough to satisfy an idiot who mistakes the phrase "breadbasket of" for a deep understanding of the economics of ancient Rome.

The initial claim was that Rome depended on Egypt and would have starved without its food supplies. If you have scholarly evidence supporting this claim, I'll be happy to take a look at it. Otherwise, I'm going to assume a retraction and apology.

It doesn't strike me as very compelling, because the Roman Republic once went to war with Egypt without starving, and managed to defeat Carthage even with the Mediterranean blockaded throughout most of that period. And besides, there's nothing in the story to suggest that King's Landing isn't receiving significant food imports from the Free Cities and elsewhere.

Superficial snarkiness about breadbaskets is hardly going to win the argument for you.

The battle is over. I have won.

[BinkyBonks]

Interesting. That would put the population density closer to Antarctica than any settled continent at any time...

No, it really wouldn't.

But yes, it's a ludicrous population density. But guess what? I wasn't the guy who wrote the story and claimed that a large chunk of the peasantry is being drafted, and cities are being abandoned, so they can assemble an army of 20,000 men and boys.

Anyway, you can't simultaneously complain about (1) how I'm assuming a terribly low population density, and (2) how if I'm right there won't be enough food to go around to sustain the population density.

The battle is over. I have won.

[OrcusOfUndeath]

Sorry, but whoever thinks Westeros has a population of 40 million is either not reading the books or needs to redo Kindergarten.

A population of 5 million for the whole of Westeros would be a better reflection of the book. Westeros isn't Medieval Europe. We've established that its system of drafting peasants into the army is closer to Ancient Rome. The only way you can get the numbers to work (assuming 5% of the population being drafted) is by assuming a population of the order of 5 million. Double that if you insist on 5% of male population rather total population.

That is a 0.75 inhabitants per square kilometer average for all of Westeros. Which according to my calculations and research is not unsound. The Lands beyond the wall (minus Lands of always winter) then have proportionally more people than we expected. We've established that there are about 100.000 wildlings, as Mance Rayders main host had at very least 30.000 fighting men at the battle of the wall. That leaves us with about 0.2 inh/km².