Syrio Forel Compared to Westerosi Swordsman

[BondJamesBond]

Syrio is well suited for a confined battle in say a throne room where an unruly lord gets out of hand. He would dominate that situation against any knight in the books. On a battlefield with horses and heavy armor, that requires strength and not finesse. For example, Against Jaime in a sword fight Syrio wins. But against Robert at the trident, Syrio gets smashed with that big hammer.

[Errant Bard]

only ONE of them is at one time The first sword of Braavos. Syrio held that title for nine freaking years!

And only one of them knights is Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. What about it? I think you may be assuming a lot of things about what the "first sword" post actually is.

But even disregarding that, it's not like being good at one time means you stay that good all the time. Else Illyrio would be bloody deadly right now.

I agree with everything you said about Lannister guardsmen. But there were 5 of them and he was armed with a wooden sword.

So? He's a fast and deadly martial artist against grunts not expecting an attack. What about it?

[Me262]

I think you missed the part where I said "Half-decent knight" not random fodder guard who get killed off like it was the first time using a sword, how does that suggest the best could only take him? He tried to deal with Meryn albeit with a wooden sword, and guess what? Syrio's RIP.

It's like Dothrak trying to take down a knight using an arack, which I found was pretty well demonstrated in the show, it's not happening to be honest.

If I remember correctly, Jorah was initially loosing this fight in the books, getting cut a few times and the POV person (I do not remember, who exactly) saying, how he was just to slow for the Dothrak. He got lucky, when the arakh got stuck in his hip, also actually hurting him. :-)

[BondJamesBond]

Also,I doubt Syrio only knows how to use a sword. He is prob a master of all weapons. Would love to see him go against Gregor clegane with a spear or two, throwing knives and maybe a ninja egg

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Syrio is well suited for a confined battle in say a throne room where an unruly lord gets out of hand. He would dominate that situation against any knight in the books. On a battlefield with horses and heavy armor, that requires strength and not finesse. For example, Against Jaime in a sword fight Syrio wins. But against Robert at the trident, Syrio gets smashed with that big hammer.

It's not the hammer that would have put Forel at a great disadvantage on the Trident - it's the horses. There's no indication that the Braavosi even have a cavalry, so one has to imagine any Braavosi would be seriously outclassed by near any Westerosi rider.

[BondJamesBond]

It's not the hammer that would have put Forel at a great disadvantage on the Trident - it's the horses. There's no indication that the Braavosi even have a cavalry, so one has to imagine any Braavosi would be seriously outclassed by near any Westerosi rider.

Very true. The hammer just drives home the point

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Very true. The hammer just drives home the point

With authority.

[Me262]

And only one of them knights is Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. What about it? I think you may be assuming a lot of things about what the "first sword" post actually is.

But even disregarding that, it's not like being good at one time means you stay that good all the time. Else Illyrio would be bloody deadly right now.

You missed my point here. I meant no disrespect to Lord Commander of KG. I was merely replying to the somewhat dubious statement that the supposed higher population of Westeros compared to Braavos automatically means that top fighters of Westeros are better than top fighters of Braavos.

So? He's a fast and deadly martial artist against grunts not expecting an attack. What about it?

Not expecting an attack? The first one did not, I agree. Are we supposed to think that all others just thought: Ah, the old man got lucky, let us just waste this foreign dancing instructor?

Your saying "what about it?" puzzles me. I would consider defeating/killing five man with a wooden sword a pretty amazing thing, even if they were unarmed. Have you got any idea, how difficult it is to keep an eye on and under control five determined attackers at the same time? Let me put this way: 5 average boxers would defeat Mike Tyson in his prime with ease, if they attacked him simoultaneously. Ask Mike, if you do not believe me. But beware of his pigeons. :-)

[Errant Bard]

If I remember correctly, Jorah was initially loosing this fight in the books, getting cut a few times and the POV person (I do not remember, who exactly) saying, how he was just to slow for the Dothrak. He got lucky, when the arakh got stuck in his hip, also actually hurting him. :-)

He also didn't have the time to fully armour himself, hence why he got wounded.

But this is moot, he still won over multiple elite fighters, when he himself is an average fighter.

[Me262]

With authority.

Respect my authoritah! ;-)

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Not expecting an attack? The first one did not, I agree. Are we supposed to think that all others just thought: Ah, the old man got lucky, let us just waste this foreign dancing instructor?

Your saying "what about it?" puzzles me. I would consider defeating/killing five man with a wooden sword a pretty amazing thing, even if they were unarmed. Have you got any idea, how difficult it is to keep an eye on and under control five determined attackers at the same time? Let me put this way: 5 average boxers would defeat Mike Tyson in his prime with ease, if they attacked him simoultaneously. Ask Mike, if you do not believe me. But beware of his pigeons. :-)

Than you, thank you, thank you for stating this so well.

Anyone who continues to dismiss offhand Syrio's work with the Red Cloaks is living outside of reality.

[Me262]

He also didn't have the time to fully armour himself, hence why he got wounded.

But this is moot, he still won over multiple elite fighters, when he himself is an average fighter.

So true for both statements. As for the second in particular, everybody has good and bad days. That is why we do not see, for example, the highest ranking tennis player in the world winning each and every match.

[Errant Bard]

Not expecting an attack? The first one did not, I agree. Are we supposed to think that all others just thought

Thought? He dropped half in less than five seconds, they didn't have the time to think anything and the rest he dealt with as he would any other unarmoured opponent. Since Bronn is considered unarmoured when he fights Hegen, those also are unarmoured (more, actually,: they don't have bucklers)

Your saying "what about it?" puzzles me. I would consider defeating/killing five man with a wooden sword a pretty amazing thing, even if they were unarmed. Have you got any idea, how difficult it is to keep an eye on and under control five determined attackers at the same time? Let me put this way: 5 average boxers would defeat Mike Tyson in his prime with ease, if they attacked him simoultaneously.

I did martial arts, I have a pretty good idea. I also have a pretty good idea of how easy it is to destroy a few guys in one blow if they don't expect it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this isn't a good performance from Syrio, I'm just not seeing how it segues into anything regarding any real duel against a trained armoured knight in a whole different situation. What knight, what circumstances?

Heck, if the circumstances had been those of Sandor at the crossroads inn, we would have had Syrio's death on-screen, with a thrown knife embedded in his spine, yet the guys were not armoured either. I bet a Dunk gambit like in the Hedge Knight would work too, it's how it is in MMA, guys used to just striking get to be all surprised when the fight gets to the ground.

[Ser Adam Dayne]

Syrio is quite good with his blade, and I imagine he would be able to defeat most knights due to his agility and experience. However, I think that GRRM makes it pretty clear that nobody in the world would have been able to beat Jaime in armed combat. You give Jaime a sword, armor or not, and I like his chances against anybody. I'm not a sword expert so I could not get all technical about fighting forms, but I do believe Syrio is deadly with his blade. I would put him somewhere around Bronn. I think that the top tier is Jaime (before hand) Loras, Garlan, the Hound, the Mountain, and Barristan the Bold. Right underneath them are people like Bronn, Syrio, Oberyn, Brienne and Balon Swann. I really don't know enough about the rest of the Kingsguard to put them in the second tier. Loras and Swann are pretty much the only 2 fighters that Jaime respects. I think a great fight would have been Syrio vs Bronn or Oberyn. Ser Garlan is somebody I'd like to see fit a whole lot more, especially since Loras declares his brother is better with a sword than he is. It's also difficult to gauge people with different fighting styles and weapons. I would put Areo in that second tier as well. I genuinely believe that if you were to put Jaime, unarmored with a Braavos blade against Syrio, Jaime would win. I really do love these hypothetical sword fighting questions. These are what makes the board really fun in my opinion.

[Me262]

Thought? He dropped half in less than five seconds, they didn't have the time to think anything and the rest he dealt with as he would any other unarmoured opponent. Since Bronn is considered unarmoured when he fights Hegen, those also are unarmoured (more, actually,: they don't have bucklers)

Where are you getting this from? He broke the first guy's wrist, so he was forced to use a dagger with his other hand. After that they were quite aware they were not dealing with a humble dancing instructor. How many seconds do you need to think and assess the situation correctly? The human mind is still the fastest computer. :-)

I did martial arts, I have a pretty good idea. I also have a pretty good idea of how easy it is to destroy a few guys in one blow if they don't expect it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this isn't a good performance from Syrio, I'm just not seeing how it segues into anything regarding any real duel against a trained armoured knight in a whole different situation. What knight, what circumstances?

I did martial arts, too. Heck, I still do them, but family and work are my priorities nowadays, so my older self would not find me to be much of challenge. :-) I agree that you can destroy a few guys very quickly, if they do not expect it, but not five of them. Never mind that, though, I state that they WERE expecting trouble. The fight with Stark guards was in full motion at that point and a daughter of Lord Eddard could have been guarded. Otherwise, why send a knight and five armed men to get a child. Send a housemaid instead.

Heck, if the circumstances had been those of Sandor at the crossroads inn, we would have had Syrio's death on-screen, with a thrown knife embedded in his spine, yet the guys were not armoured either. I bet a Dunk gambit like in the Hedge Knight would work too, it's how it is in MMA, guys used to just striking get to be all surprised when the fight gets to the ground.

Nah, I disagree. Sandor is one of the elite fighters, sure, but he was neither watching nor seeing at the Crossroads inn. Perhaps because he was too busy getting drunk. :-) A smart and observant man (such as Syrio) would anticipate, what was coming. He would have closed the distance earlier and finished those guys off, before they became a real threat. I watch MMA, so I agree with your statement. I have no knowledge about Dunk gambit, though, so I can not comment on the matter.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

As a former fencer, I disagree.

The advantages of the long/greatswords are greatly reduced when one considers that the Bravosi doesn't block like the Westerosi does. He parries, he redirects. A Bravosi blade would block another Bravosi blade, forte to forte, but it's just not done.

Broadswords, longswords, greatswords and such don't usually need much of an edge. Armoured knights bash each other senseless until they make an opening.

Heavy weapons require full commitment to an attack. A little push to the side, the sword keeps going, now in a safer path, counter attack.

The full suit of armour is a problem. It's like Obyron and his spear. If he wears mail under the armour, it's going to be hard and a test of the blade's strength, for sure.

Partial armour, boiled leather &c, would be little obstacle for a master water dancer. Necks, eyes, thighs, groins, forearms and biceps all bleed well and cripple.

Westerosi don't block like Westerosi do ;). The whole blocking nonsense, edge on edge and all these other moves seen in cinema are pure Hollywood. It can't be done at all and it wasn't done in reality.

Misdirecting the blade and even more, using four-dimensional geometry while attacking was the right thing to do. A greatsword is probably a less than a pound heavier than a braavosi blade, it can be moved as quickly if you are skilled. The two-handed grip offers better reach, better control, more strength and vastly more possible maneuvers. It is the superior weapon. And it got replaced by the combination of dressing sword and pistol, not by rapier.

[Grip]

I think the bottomline is that Syrio was indeed skilled but not suited in dealing with every situation, in facing an armored opponent he would have been at a disadvantage. He killed five opponents and while that is impressive he came up short, imo, when he faced someone more heavily armored and better trained than the grunts, alá Trant. He was a fencing master, comparing him with a knight such as Garlan isnt favorable to either party. They are to different imo, two different cultures and attitudes to fighting.

[PrinceHenryris]

One on One, I see Syrio walking away with a smile on his face most of the time.

[Storms End]

Ah, I see the fandom still continues... still people cannot seem to see how Syrio got plot shielded when random household guards had a NUMERICAL advantage, and decided to attack one by one, if they did attack alltogether, Syrio limbs would of been going in different directions, no doubt it was easy to suprise and fool these guards who think this man is nothing but a dancing master with a stick.

All the hardcore fans seem to be going off topic too, and using that scene to provide scenario advanatges against knights, which doesn't work out, because he got killed by a knight who isn't remotely impressive, wooden sword or not, the technique he still used was his own. It doesn't work, nor will it ever work in reality, if he used his own smaller version of a rapier, not only would the knight have a REACH and ARMOUR adavantage over Syrio, he could even have a shield, I find it hilarious reading lectures from people who don't under the first thing about sword play.

Next you'll be saying Syrio could take the mountain on. (Please make my day, he wields a sword bigger than the average height on this forum and literally has no equal in westeros.)

[Grip]

Ah, I see the fandom still continues... still people cannot seem to see how Syrio got plot shielded when random household guards had a NUMERICAL advantage, and decided to attack one by one, if they did attack alltogether, Syrio limbs would of been going in different directions, no doubt it was easy to suprise and fool these guards who think this man is nothing but a dancing master with a stick.

True enough. I have never been a fan of Syrio too be honest. I never understood why Trant held back at first, I doubt he is a coward. That whole situation, as you imply, seems rather cheesy in retroaspect. I wouldnt call Trant incompetent though, even if he is no Jaime..