Revealing of Jon Snow's mother

[Faint]

Before the Septa Lemore thing, it occurred to me that Ashara might have faked her death in order to protect what she knew about Jon's parentage. I think she's the one who told Ned where to find Lyanna. It's also possible that the Ashara-as-Jon's-mom thing came about so if he looked like a Targ when he got older, people could assume it was his Dayne side. But in order for Ned to take him, Ashara — his "mother" — needed to be out of the picture. Otherwise, I think it'd look weird for Ned to claim him and not his "mother," and then people would ask questions.

That was and remains my thoughts on the matter. Ashara was always a necessary conspirator in case Jon bore a resemblance to his father.

If Lady Lemore is Princess Elia’s handmaiden Ashara Dayne, then what did Ned tell Ashara right after the Tower of Joy that convinced Ashara to fake her own death, and how does it connect with her current rôle catering to Aegon’s spiritual needs? How would Ashara have been duped by some post-facto swap around of a child of Serra Blackfyre and Illyrio, far off in Essos? She wouldn’t.

That doesn’t add up. There’s a critical piece missing.

Here's the thing that makes the whole deal confusing: Presumably, Ashara Dayne would know the identities of Jon's parents.

Perhaps it is as simple as her being duped by Illyrio and Varys. Perhaps exile has made her grasp at straws (i.e., Jon Connington). Although, if that were the case, she would be soon telling Aegon that he has a brother at the Wall.

I don't know; nothing seems to fit well together. Perhaps the assumption that Lemore is Ashara Dayne is a poor one and has caused us to try to fit puzzle pieces that were not meant for each other.

[Miriamele]

That shows how important a piece to the puzzle it is that we’re all somehow missing.

Her motivation for feigning suicide followed by exile just doesn’t make good strong sense unless Aegon were her own child, and even then, probably only if it were also Rhaegar’s, not Ned’s. And that child had to be there right then and there when she left.

On the other hand, if she had just had a still-born baby, she could have been Aegon’s milk-nurse. But where’s her motivation for exile? That argues that Aegon must really be Rhaegar and Elia’s son.

Either way you look at it, Ashara makes no sense if Aegon is just some random child unrelated to her or the royal couple, like some a Blackfyre pretender born years later and pawned off on her while she was in exile.

That just doesn’t wash.

What is Ashara’s angle?

Figure that out, and everything else will fall into place.

I’m pretty sure that Arthur and Ashara Dayne were respectively Rhaegar’s and Elia’s best friends. It’s still a lot to ask though. I can’t come up with any motivation for Ashara that makes any sense unless Aegon is the child of one or more of Ashara or Rhaegar. She wouldn’t give up her life for a nobody.

Well, I've got this crackpot theory that R+L=J&A

Meaning Lyanna had twins, and Ned kept the one with Stark look, and Ashara took the one with the Targ look.The way Bran and Rickon were split up for safety.

Maybe Varys thinks he has a fake Aegon but he actually has Rhaegar's other son.:)

[Onion Ring Knight]

Well, I've got this crackpot theory that R+L=J&A

Meaning Lyanna had twins, and Ned kept the one with Stark look, and Ashara took the one with the Targ look.The way Bran and Rickon were split up for safety.

Maybe Varys thinks he has a fake Aegon but he actually has Rhaegar's other son. :)

Mind = blown. :stunned:

In the 15 years I've been following this series, that thought had never occurred to me.

[dreamcatcher]

Well, I've got this crackpot theory that R+L=J&A

Meaning Lyanna had twins, and Ned kept the one with Stark look, and Ashara took the one with the Targ look.The way Bran and Rickon were split up for safety.

Maybe Varys thinks he has a fake Aegon but he actually has Rhaegar's other son. :)

Good one, it's just that babies don't usually show the colour of their eyes etc. until about 1 year. Most babies also don't have the same colour of hair they'll have later on. Also, Aegon seems younger than Jon and his eyes are more blue than purple.

Maybe the fact that babies all look alike is the reason why it's unclear (for people other than Ned) whether Jon's mum is Ashara or Wylla - so that Ned could say (after Jon got his looks stabilised), it's got blonde hair, it's Ashara's.

I like your theory, though!

[Miriamele]

Good one, it's just that babies don't usually show the colour of their eyes etc. until about 1 year. Most babies also don't have the same colour of hair they'll have later on. Also, Aegon seems younger than Jon and his eyes are more blue than purple.

Maybe the fact that babies all look alike is the reason why it's unclear (for people other than Ned) whether Jon's mum is Ashara or Wylla - so that Ned could say (after Jon got his looks stabilised), it's got blonde hair, it's Ashara's.

I like your theory, though!

Thanks!

I think babies' eye colour starts to change at about six month, but I'm not sure. As for hair lot's of people believe in my country that the hair colour the baby is born with will be the eventual colour even if it changes for a while. For example I was born with dark brown hair, when I was one I became a blonde, and by the time I was about five it darkened again.

Aegon's eyes look bluer because he has blue hair. He does act younger than Jon, but he had a different life and the real Aegon would be about a year older than Jon and it doesn't seem to bother people, so he doesn't look too young.

[rappin'Hodor]

Good one, it's just that babies don't usually show the colour of their eyes etc. until about 1 year. Most babies also don't have the same colour of hair they'll have later on. Also, Aegon seems younger than Jon and his eyes are more blue than purple.

Maybe the fact that babies all look alike is the reason why it's unclear (for people other than Ned) whether Jon's mum is Ashara or Wylla - so that Ned could say (after Jon got his looks stabilised), it's got blonde hair, it's Ashara's.

I like your theory, though!

Yes and no. We have friends who had fraternal twins. Within 3 weeks you could tell that the one girl was going to look a lot like her dark complexion father while the other was remarkably like her fare mother. Thirteen years later this has proven to be true. We also have pictures of my wife and our three kids in their baptism outfits on the wall leading upstairs in our house. There is no denying which one is my oldest daughter (big bright eyes and thick dark hair like my wife) and the other 2 who are much farer (like me). These pics were taken at 9 weeks and 15 years later they are spot on.

I for one, love this theory.

[MtnLion]

Aegon's older than Jon, so his claim would be superior anyway. No need to kill Jon.

That is convenient, but George does not like to be convenient. We know that Elia was sickly, and after her second child she was forbidden to have any more. We also know that an unnamed man dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal. Crackpot time: Suppose it was Aerys that raped Ashara. Suppose Ashara and Elia came to term at the same time. Suppose Elia's child was stillborn. Wouldn't it be in character for Ashara to give Elia her child and take the stillborn one, since she could never accuse Aerys of doing the rape and hope that she and her child lived. Then we get Barristan remembering that Ashara had a stillborn daughter, and Varys spiriting away young Aegon to be raised by none other than his mother. Sure she will keep it quiet, and not spoil the party. Perhaps we get her admitting the whole thing to Daenerys at some point, along with the tidbit of Lyanna and Rhaegar being married, and the child raised as Jon by Ned.

ETA: This lays the foundation for the battle between Jon and Daenerys at the Trident that Daenerys has foreseen. As long as he lives she cannot take the Iron Throne.

[dreamcatcher]

Yes and no. We have friends who had fraternal twins. Within 3 weeks you could tell that the one girl was going to look a lot like her dark complexion father while the other was remarkably like her fare mother. Thirteen years later this has proven to be true. We also have pictures of my wife and our three kids in their baptism outfits on the wall leading upstairs in our house. There is no denying which one is my oldest daughter (big bright eyes and thick dark hair like my wife) and the other 2 who are much farer (like me). These pics were taken at 9 weeks and 15 years later they are spot on.

I for one, love this theory.

Like you said, yes and no, I have an almost-albino best friend who had black hair and not really fair complexion when she was a baby! How? -- beats me. However, if one baby is born with really thick black hair and the other with streaks of silver in it, then I think we can be fairly sure..

Just one thing - why did they name the blond baby Aegon? Didn't the real baby Aegon die?

[dreamcatcher]

ETA: This lays the foundation for the battle between Jon and Daenerys at the Trident that Daenerys has foreseen. As long as he lives she cannot take the Iron Throne.

Just reading about this gives me the chills. This would be the epicest of battles ever.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Crackpot time: Suppose it was Aerys that raped Ashara. Suppose Ashara and Elia came to term at the same time. Suppose Elia's child was stillborn. Wouldn't it be in character for Ashara to give Elia her child and take the stillborn one, since she could never accuse Aerys of doing the rape and hope that she and her child lived.

The problem with all that is this:

Drogon shrieked, his claws digging through silk and skin, but the king on his throne never heard, and Dany moved on. Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

That means Elia’s second child by Rhaegar was not still-born, and he is Aegon, whose song is the song of ice and fire.

[MtnLion]

That means Elia’s second child by Rhaegar was not still-born, and he is Aegon, whose song is the song of ice and fire.

Or, that the switch had been effected before Rhaegar entered. Rhaegar can be in error in his pronouncement, as we are just seeing what has happened in the past.

I am suggesting that the newborn babe is Ashara's natural born son of Aerys switched at birth with the stillborn daughter of Rhaegar and Elia. In a convoluted fashion it makes sense, but there is absolutely no proof either way.

[Miriamele]

Or

Like you said, yes and no, I have an almost-albino best friend who had black hair and not really fair complexion when she was a baby! How? -- beats me. However, if one baby is born with really thick black hair and the other with streaks of silver in it, then I think we can be fairly sure..

Just one thing - why did they name the blond baby Aegon? Didn't the real baby Aegon die?

Maybe they thought they could convince people more easily that baby Aegon was saved, than introduce the idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child.

[Visual909]

The problem is that Ned never once said it was Ashara's at most he said it was Wylla's and that was really reluctantly. I think honestly is that Ashara did commit suicide and Lemore is not her. Maybe someone else important but not Ashara that would be a bit much IMO.

[extravadanza]

Just reading about this gives me the chills. This would be the epicest of battles ever.

when do the books foreshadow a battle b/w dany and jon at the trident? and if so how the f did i miss this ?!?!?!?!?

[Jorge Danger]

My money is still on Benjen Stark. I think he knows a great deal that he hasn't told us. I don't think he's Coldhands, and I sure as hell don't think he's anywhere near as "lost" as people (within the books) believe him to be. That man's up to something...

[Sun]

Either Bran, Bloodraven or Howland Reed.

Interestingly, at a book signing in the UK recently, someone asked GRRM if we were going to see Howland Reed, and he said yes. But that he hasn't decided if it was going to be in book 7 or 8. I'm guessing it's at the end of book 7, which would be perfect timing for the reveal of Jon's mother (I'm really not looking forward to the reveal, I find the fact that Jon is most likely a hidden Targ prince with a special destiny so very annoying).

[LuisDantas]

Wait. Stop the presses. GRRM has confirmed that there will be a book 8?

[dreamcatcher]

Wait. Stop the presses. GRRM has confirmed that there will be a book 8?

Sun probably made a mistake. (although deep down, at the rate we're going, I think there will be 8 books)

However, I'm 99% certain that (one of the) cliff-hangers at the end of TWoW will concern Jon Snow's parentage. And as we can see, GRRM hasn't really decided if he wants a cliff-hanger or not - ergo, he hasn't decided if he wants H. Reed in the 6th book or in the 7th.

[alienarea]

Good one, it's just that babies don't usually show the colour of their eyes etc. until about 1 year. Most babies also don't have the same colour of hair they'll have later on. Also, Aegon seems younger than Jon and his eyes are more blue than purple.

Maybe the fact that babies all look alike is the reason why it's unclear (for people other than Ned) whether Jon's mum is Ashara or Wylla - so that Ned could say (after Jon got his looks stabilised), it's got blonde hair, it's Ashara's.

I like your theory, though!

But isn't that too much Star Wars?

[kg1982]

Yes it is....

My favorite theory is that Jaime Lannister is the first one to piece the whole thing together. Both Jaime and Brienne are the closest POV characters to the Neck and Greywater Watch and I think that they're the first ones to meet up with Howland Reed. Howland Reed might mention his relationship with Ned or that he killed Jaime's idol Arthur Dayne and provide Jaime with enough information to piece everything together. I think that at least some other people, like Jon Con, find out before Jon does.

As for Ashara, my one hold-up with her as Lemore is the fact that Jon Con has no idea about Aegon's brother. I do think that Ashara is the one that told Ned about the Tower of Joy and I don't see why she'd withhold the information from Jon Con. She probably would from Varys and Illyrio, but not Jon Con unless she thought he'd mention something to Illyrio.

Both Jon Con and Lemore (if she is Ashara) are being used as useful pawns and dupes by Varys.