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A Thread for Small Questions XVII


Angalin

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Another small question; why was Robert Baratheon so convinced that 40,000 Dothraki could not be beaten in open battle? Surely a royal army could field far superior numbers?

I understand that they feared the possibility that former Targaryen loyalists could defect, but aside from that it is specifically mentioned on a number of occasions that meeting the Dothraki in open battle was suicide. This doesn't really make sense to me, along with Robert's attitude towards the entire thing. Robert was sad, bored and idle, and it would be more in keeping with his character to relish a genuine challenge to his rule as opposed to fearing it.

Every Dothraki is a skilled mounted fighter. One in ten of an army is a knight. Renly had the biggest army so far and it was 100,000. Exc maybe Mance - cant recall the size of his host, but lower percentage of real fighters and no decent weapons at all.

Robert was "an old done man" IMHO - he didnt want to fight - he just wanted to play at it.

He was also a little irrational at the thought of an actual threat from targaryens

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Another small question; why was Robert Baratheon so convinced that 40,000 Dothraki could not be beaten in open battle? Surely a royal army could field far superior numbers?

I understand that they feared the possibility that former Targaryen loyalists could defect, but aside from that it is specifically mentioned on a number of occasions that meeting the Dothraki in open battle was suicide. This doesn't really make sense to me, along with Robert's attitude towards the entire thing. Robert was sad, bored and idle, and it would be more in keeping with his character to relish a genuine challenge to his rule as opposed to fearing it.

Jorah Mormont also mentioned that it would be near impossible to defeat the Dothraki if you fight like the Dothraki and under their terms. But he did say his advisors are not as bold and rash as Robert, mainly Ned and Barristan. They are experts in mounted warfare. Jorah even said they are so dangerous because they were incredible archers, their bows outranged bows used by those in Westeros, and they could use them accurately on horseback while retreating or attacking. So I think that it would

ETA: Just like someone else said above, an army of 40,000 in Westeros would maybe have 4,000 mounted knights. The rest on the ground men-at-arms. And is common knowledge that a mounted soldier is more effective than a foot soldier.

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Wolves lost black but recovered it breeding with domestic dogs. This is relatively new scientific discovery.

Cheers, thanks for the clarification. :)

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Did Theon say that Jon is taking care of his hair more than most girls?

I heard this on other forum, but I don't know is this true or who is taking care of his hair more than some girls.

Satin maybe <G> he would know how

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Cheers, thanks for the clarification. :)

If it is true that this discoery was made after Shaggy was created perhaps the answer lies in the fact that these are Direwolves and it isnt really England.

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Jorah Mormont also mentioned that it would be near impossible to defeat the Dothraki if you fight like the Dothraki and under their terms. But he did say his advisors are not as bold and rash as Robert, mainly Ned and Barristan. They are experts in mounted warfare. Jorah even said they are so dangerous because they were incredible archers, their bows outranged bows used by those in Westeros, and they could use them accurately on horseback while retreating or attacking. So I think that it would

ETA: Just like someone else said above, an army of 40,000 in Westeros would maybe have 4,000 mounted knights. The rest on the ground men-at-arms. And is common knowledge that a mounted soldier is more effective than a foot soldier.

I'm far from a war historian, but I'm still unconvinced.

Firstly, the numbers still just don't work. If faced with an invasion from a vicious and bloodthirsty Dothraki horde, one would have to think that the crown could raise a host with close to ten times those numbers. I don't think counting the numbers of the various hosts in the War of the 5 Kings is particularly instructive, but taking Renly's 100,000 men alone, which was the forces of the Reach and a large portion of the Stormlands, it seems reasonable that a host of 400k plus could be assembled to repel an invasion by a horde of foreign savages hell bent on raping and pillaging their way through the 7 kingdoms.

Secondly, as proficient as the Dothraki are portrayed, they are a wild horde accustomed to pillaging and raiding. I fail to see how they would pose a threat to a far larger, better armed, better armoured force commanded by intelligent veterans with serious experience of open field combat.

Basically, Drogo's khalasar poses absolutely no threat to a large Westerosi host, so for Robert to state that meeting them in open combat would be suicide( or whatever the comment was) is absolutely ridiculous.

As I said in the first post, I'm not saying there were no circumstances in which Dany could not have been successful, just that several characters supporting the notion that Drogo's horde alone would be unstoppable in open combat is absolutely ridiculous.

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I feel compelled to point out a few things about Robert's pessimism toward a Dotraki invasion.

1. In the book, when he and Ned discuss it on the Kingsroad, Robert is pessimistic while Ned talks sense into him and says that the Dothraki don't have any ships and hate crossing water. And a lot of Robert's pessimism comes not from the Dothraki themselves, but from the possibility that some Westerosi families would side with the Targ siblings. I think this is a stretch — nothing would unite the kingdoms more than to face a huge horde of foreign pillaging rapists. And somehow I doubt that they would differentiate between the Lannisters and the Baratheons, and the Martells and the Tyrells.

2. The conversation on the show between Robert and Cersei, where he tells her that if the Dothraki invade, they won't be able to stop them, is not in the books.

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Even if Robert could have assemble a army of 400k, how long would that take? How many towns would have been destroyed before Robert could face the Dothraki?

And Robert never said that to face the Dothraki was suicide.

As you can see when Robert talk to ned about the Dothraki for the first time it's the Lords that would join the Dothraki under a targ. banner that Robert fears.

Edit: Apple Martini beat me to it.

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I feel compelled to point out a few things about Robert's pessimism toward a Dotraki invasion.

1. In the book, when he and Ned discuss it on the Kingsroad, Robert is pessimistic while Ned talks sense into him and says that the Dothraki don't have any ships and hate crossing water. And a lot of Robert's pessimism comes not from the Dothraki themselves, but from the possibility that some Westerosi families would side with the Targ siblings. I think this is a stretch — nothing would unite the kingdoms more than to face a huge horde of foreign pillaging rapists. And somehow I doubt that they would differentiate between the Lannisters and the Baratheons, and the Martells and the Tyrells.

2. The conversation on the show between Robert and Cersei, where he tells her that if the Dothraki invade, they won't be able to stop them, is not in the books.

Ah that is the answer I was looking for. It's too easy to conflate the books with the show, especially with the show fresh in the mind. I agree with you by the way, and IIRC Robert also speculated that Drogo's khalasar was 100,000 strong in that conversation so that would also go to account for his apprehension.

So the answer is simply that the tv scene painted an inaccurate picture of Robert's position. Despite that, it's a pity that scene with Cersei wasn't in the books, because it is one of the strongest exchanges of both book and tv series.

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Ah that is the answer I was looking for. It's too easy to conflate the books with the show, especially with the show fresh in the mind. I agree with you by the way, and IIRC Robert also speculated that Drogo's khalasar was 100,000 strong in that conversation so that would also go to account for his apprehension.

Yeah. Robert was overestimating the size of Drogo's force by two-and-a-half times. If anything, if and when the time came to face them, the Dothraki would be at an even worse disadvantage — the Westerosi would be prepared to fight a hundred thousand men, and they'd face "only" 40,000.

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I'm far from a war historian, but I'm still unconvinced.

Firstly, the numbers still just don't work. If faced with an invasion from a vicious and bloodthirsty Dothraki horde, one would have to think that the crown could raise a host with close to ten times those numbers. I don't think counting the numbers of the various hosts in the War of the 5 Kings is particularly instructive, but taking Renly's 100,000 men alone, which was the forces of the Reach and a large portion of the Stormlands, it seems reasonable that a host of 400k plus could be assembled to repel an invasion by a horde of foreign savages hell bent on raping and pillaging their way through the 7 kingdoms.

Secondly, as proficient as the Dothraki are portrayed, they are a wild horde accustomed to pillaging and raiding. I fail to see how they would pose a threat to a far larger, better armed, better armoured force commanded by intelligent veterans with serious experience of open field combat.

Basically, Drogo's khalasar poses absolutely no threat to a large Westerosi host, so for Robert to state that meeting them in open combat would be suicide( or whatever the comment was) is absolutely ridiculous.

The bulk of the Westerosi armies is infantry which is mostly made up of peasant levies who have virtually no training and are very poorly equipped (septon Meribald explains it in more detail right before the famous "broken men" speech). Mounted knights and men-at-arms make up only a small percentage of the armies.

On the other hand, nearly every Dothraki fighter would be an experienced rider who has had plenty of training with the bow and the arakh. 40 000 of them would be a very serious threat. Sure, they'd have problems with castles and sieges, but in an open battle they'd be hard to beat.

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I honestly think the whole Dothraki thing was a frightening diversion designed with the dual purpose of getting rid of Dany and Viserys by varys and Illyrio and keeping Robert and Ned occupied while the real invader was preparing.

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If it is true that this discoery was made after Shaggy was created perhaps the answer lies in the fact that these are Direwolves and it isnt really England.

Er.....the only reason I even brought up the colour issue is because I was literally *reaching* there. I have no doubt it has nothing to do with the actual story. The initial question was asking if Shaggy's coat colour had any significance, and I was just throwing random stuff out there. I don't actually think that is what GRRM had in mind. :rolleyes:

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not sure if this has been covered by anybody, but did anybody else notice tom o'sevens at riverrun when jamie left? i'm wondering if that's where the BwB is going to strike next and if that is 'proof' that the blackfish is working with them now?

any thoughts/conspiracies?

I thought that somewhere it was mentioned that some of the brothers left the BwB when Stoneheart took over. Didn't Thoros leave? Maybe Tom O sevens just dipped out when they starting hanging fools left and right. But yeah, could be interesting if the Blackfish and his undead niece Stoneheart start tearing up the riverlands.... but I bet the Blackfish makes his way to the Vale, especially if Littlefinger reveals Alayne/Sansa's true identity. Maybe one of Tyrion's homies from the Mountains of the Moon rallies behind the Halfman's beleaguered bride...

Okay, I would like to ask about something what I´ve realized some time ago and it has troubled me since.

Shaggydog.

There are several explanations for Jon´s Ghost being an albino. What about Shaggy though? His colouring isn´t (for the lack of better words) "unnatural" or "anomalous" as Ghost´s is, but he´s still got black fur and green eyes, while his siblings (excluding Ghost) have grey fur and yellow eyes. He´s still different. I think it´s odd. Why not to give them all the same colouring?

Is there something what sets Rickon apart from Robb, Sansa, Arya and Bran?

Or am I reading too much into it?

My guess is that it makes it easier for the reader to tell what's going on, especially during the warging scenes, when and where Summer and Shaggydog are both present. Maybe it's GRRM's favorite zeppelin song....

Ghost is white and alone, Nymeria's the only she-wolf left, but Shaggydog and Summer are together in many scenes. Maybe it's just a convenient way to differentiate them, and at the same time you get all those associations others mentioned about the black wolf as wild, feral, disconnected, primal...

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My take on the matter of an hypothetical Dothraki invasion is that it would be doomed to fail, but also to create a scar that betrays its actual size.

Dothraki culture is warlike, brutal, parasitic. Think of them as the Ironborn would be if they sailed on land as well as they do on sea. They have such a cultural structure that one can't be a Dothraki for any length of time without learning to be ruthless, bloodthirsty and inconsequential. They emphasize combat effectiveness at the expense of everything that makes civilization possible, to the point that they can only survive by destroying other people continually. They somewhat resemble lawyers, only a bit more direct and more realistic.

Assuming for a moment that they arrive in Westeros in significant numbers (quite an assumption really, but let's roll with it) they will by necessity hunt, raid and pillage continually. They know no other way of sustaining themselves. Soon enough they will starve due to lack of fresh victims - which, of course, will make them that much more dangerous and desperate.

They can't succeed in Westeros, not without going through some major social change first. But they will scourge the lands while they slowly destroy themselves and those unfortunate enough to be on their path. I would guess-estimate that an army of 40 thousand Dothraki landing, say, in the Reach (for maximal effectiveness and lasting power) will cost some 200 thousand Westerosi lives if they arrive unexpectedly. And be reduced to perhaps 10% of its original size after two months, perhaps four. They would be all but destroyed in less than a year's time, but become popular boogeyman figures while at it.

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Hey guys, I am doing my first re-read of the series and I have one question regarding Jaime. It's probably pretty obvious or inconsequential, but because I can't figure it out it's bugging the hell out of me.

Near the end of ACOK when Catelyn's inquisition of Jaime in Riverrun's dungeons occurs, Jaime describes his experience in Aery's Kingsguard. Shortly after, Jaime has the following line (pg.798 of US paperback):

"I will say, I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act."

It's obvious that Jaime believes his "finest act" to be his slaying of Aerys. However, I can't figure out what the kindness he never did is, and who loves him for it? Do we know? I thought may it refer to the Tyrion/Tysha incident, but that doesn't seem to make sense seeing as how we learn that Tysha was indeed "real," and Jaime did actually chase off Tysha's pursuers.

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Hey guys, I am doing my first re-read of the series and I have one question regarding Jaime. It's probably pretty obvious or inconsequential, but because I can't figure it out it's bugging the hell out of me.

Near the end of ACOK when Catelyn's inquisition of Jaime in Riverrun's dungeons occurs, Jaime describes his experience in Aery's Kingsguard. Shortly after, Jaime has the following line (pg.798 of US paperback):

It's obvious that Jaime believes his "finest act" to be his slaying of Aerys. However, I can't figure out what the kindness he never did is, and who loves him for it? Do we know? I thought may it refer to the Tyrion/Tysha incident, but that doesn't seem to make sense seeing as how we learn that Tysha was indeed "real," and Jaime did actually chase off Tysha's pursuers.

Nobody knows so it's nothing but speculation. I personally do think it's the Tyrion/Tysha incident. Tysha was real, hence the kindness he never did.

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