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GRRM ON LAND OF ALWAYS WINTER?


himalyanjon

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nah the quote i was just wondering there are no animals there and obviously no vegetation so....???

There are animals about timberline. Not all animals eat trees. Remember that there are areas far enough north (or south) by latitude that are not permanently covered by snow and yet are too harsh for trees to live in. Where this line is varies according to the combination of latitude and altitude, and by a few lesser factors.

There is also a vegetation line rather further above that, which does not occur naturally by latitude, only by latitude. Here no plant life can grow at all.

This is different from places covered by a permanent ice cap, such as in Greenland, the arctic, and the antarctic.

But plenty of plants and animals can live between where trees can no longer live and where all vegetation stops.

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Sorry for not being 'down with the lingo' but what exactly are the Sidhe and why are they called that?

For this they invented this little thing called googling (for Sidhe), whence we learn that

The
aos sí
(Irish pronunciation:
[iːs ˈʃiː]
, older form
aes sídhe
[eːs ˈʃiːə]
) are a supernatural race in Irish mythology and Scottish mythology comparable to the fairies or elves. They are said to live underground in the fairy mounds, across the western sea, or in an invisible world that coexists with the world of humans. This world is described in the
Book of Invasion
s (recorded in the
Book of Leinster
) as a parallel universe in which the aos sí walk amongst the living. In the Irish language,
aos sí
means "people of the mounds" (the mounds are known in Irish as "the
sídhe
"). In Irish literature the people of the mounds are also called
daoine sídhe
[ˈdiːnʲə ˈʃiːə]
; in Scottish Gaelic literature they are
daoine sìth
. They are variously said to be the ancestors, the spirits of nature, or goddesses and gods. ...
In many Gaelic tales the
aos sí
are later, literary versions of the Tuatha Dé Danann ("People of the Goddess Danu") – the deities and deified ancestors of Irish mythology. ...
As part of the terms of their surrender to the Milesians the Tuatha Dé Danann agreed to retreat and dwell underground in the
sídhe
(modern Irish:
; Scottish Gaelic:
sìth
; Old Irish
síde
, singular
síd
), the hills or earthen mounds that dot the Irish landscape.

As you can tell by the IPA above, their name is pronounced like English “she”. Indeed, the English word “banshee” derives from the identically pronounced bean sídhe, who were female sidhe — and not nice. Clearly, these are not always good guys.

You can also see the connection to the singers here, beings who dwell beneath hollow hills and were once thought to be old gods or nature spirits. The old gods of the First Men really do seem to be singers, the children of the forest. Notice also the connection to deified ancestor spirits.

Yes, this is venturing into the very same sources as Tolkien used (at some remove) to derive his own legendarium. Tolkien derives some of his stories of the Eldar from the old sidhe myths, including the ones found in variant form in Welsh myth. There’s more Celtic in Tolkien than many notice, since the more northern elements (Norse, Finnish) is so much more prominent and apparent. But the Celtic is there, too.

Martin has likened the Others to ice-related sidhe. This is somewhat disturbing given the connections of the singers to sidhe. But there were many kinds of sidhe, completely unrelated to one another. Some were allied with mankind; others, inimical.

The biggest connection between the Others, the singers, and the giants is that they are non-human hominids, what a biologist would call different genera or families but fantasy and science-fiction writers — and rôle-players — would call different non-human races.

Beyond that, one can say little more. There are unconfirmed rumors that at least two, and perhaps all three, of these alien races are somewhat interfertile with real humans.

I suspect that we’ll learn more of all this come Winds. At least, I really hope so.

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Do you know Memory, Sorrow and Thorn by Tad Williams? There are also alien races in these books with common origins who developed differently. Maybe Martin plans to do something similar and the Cotf and the Others are somehow different cousins or something.

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There are animals about timberline. Not all animals eat trees. Remember that there are areas far enough north (or south) by latitude that are not permanently covered by snow and yet are too harsh for trees to live in. Where this line is varies according to the combination of latitude and altitude, and by a few lesser factors.

There is also a vegetation line rather further above that, which does not occur naturally by latitude, only by latitude. Here no plant life can grow at all.

This is different from places covered by a permanent ice cap, such as in Greenland, the arctic, and the antarctic.

But plenty of plants and animals can live between where trees can no longer live and where all vegetation stops.

hmm you are right but still It will still be interesting to know what really do other survive on there might be vegetation but no living animals as we see others ride dead animals..

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Nice analysis, Cryptic! Do you (or does anyone) know if someone's done a thread or a website about mythological influences in ASOIAF? I know they did that for Robert Jordan's world but haven't found anything for Martin.

The Heresy thread on the ADwD board is very heavily into the various mythological influences.

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I don't think that Jon will go to the Land of Always Winter. That seems like a long way to travel and he's probably going to stuck at the wall for a good portion of TWOW.

If anybody is going to visit that place i think it will be Bran, since he doesn't have to go anywhere to be there. he can just warg something that is there.

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I don't think that Jon will go to the Land of Always Winter. That seems like a long way to travel and he's probably going to stuck at the wall for a good portion of TWOW.

If anybody is going to visit that place i think it will be Bran, since he doesn't have to go anywhere to be there. he can just warg something that is there.

bran isn't leaving the place for sometime methinks

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Nice analysis, Cryptic! Do you (or does anyone) know if someone's done a thread or a website about mythological influences in ASOIAF? I know they did that for Robert Jordan's world but haven't found anything for Martin.

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Since we're talking about the land of always winter, the others, and their culture. I think this is the most knowledge we know about them from this quote from Tormund Giantsbance in ADwD"

"You know nothing. you killed a dead man, aya, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their MASTERS come, when the white mists rise up...how do you fist a mist, crow, Shadows with teeth..air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest...you do now know, you cannot know...can your sword cut cold?"

I think this will be the most interesting thing to know about the masters of the wights.

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Do you know Memory, Sorrow and Thorn by Tad Williams? There are also alien races in these books with common origins who developed differently. Maybe Martin plans to do something similar and the Cotf and the Others are somehow different cousins or something.

aSoIaF already heavily borrows from MS&T, and something along these lines does seem likely.

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For this they invented this little thing called googling (for Sidhe), whence we learn that

The
aos sí
(Irish pronunciation:
[iːs ˈʃiː]
, older form
aes sídhe
[eːs ˈʃiːə]
) are a supernatural race in Irish mythology and Scottish mythology comparable to the fairies or elves. They are said to live underground in the fairy mounds, across the western sea, or in an invisible world that coexists with the world of humans. This world is described in the
Book of Invasion
s (recorded in the
Book of Leinster
) as a parallel universe in which the aos sí walk amongst the living. In the Irish language,
aos sí
means "people of the mounds" (the mounds are known in Irish as "the
sídhe
"). In Irish literature the people of the mounds are also called
daoine sídhe
[ˈdiːnʲə ˈʃiːə]
; in Scottish Gaelic literature they are
daoine sìth
. They are variously said to be the ancestors, the spirits of nature, or goddesses and gods. ...
In many Gaelic tales the
aos sí
are later, literary versions of the Tuatha Dé Danann ("People of the Goddess Danu") – the deities and deified ancestors of Irish mythology. ...
As part of the terms of their surrender to the Milesians the Tuatha Dé Danann agreed to retreat and dwell underground in the
sídhe
(modern Irish:
; Scottish Gaelic:
sìth
; Old Irish
síde
, singular
síd
), the hills or earthen mounds that dot the Irish landscape.

As you can tell by the IPA above, their name is pronounced like English “she”. Indeed, the English word “banshee” derives from the identically pronounced bean sídhe, who were female sidhe — and not nice. Clearly, these are not always good guys.

You can also see the connection to the singers here, beings who dwell beneath hollow hills and were once thought to be old gods or nature spirits. The old gods of the First Men really do seem to be singers, the children of the forest. Notice also the connection to deified ancestor spirits.

Yes, this is venturing into the very same sources as Tolkien used (at some remove) to derive his own legendarium. Tolkien derives some of his stories of the Eldar from the old sidhe myths, including the ones found in variant form in Welsh myth. There’s more Celtic in Tolkien than many notice, since the more northern elements (Norse, Finnish) is so much more prominent and apparent. But the Celtic is there, too.

Martin has likened the Others to ice-related sidhe. This is somewhat disturbing given the connections of the singers to sidhe. But there were many kinds of sidhe, completely unrelated to one another. Some were allied with mankind; others, inimical.

The biggest connection between the Others, the singers, and the giants is that they are non-human hominids, what a biologist would call different genera or families but fantasy and science-fiction writers — and rôle-players — would call different non-human races.

Beyond that, one can say little more. There are unconfirmed rumors that at least two, and perhaps all three, of these alien races are somewhat interfertile with real humans.

I suspect that we’ll learn more of all this come Winds. At least, I really hope so.

Nice summary.I would just add that in some versions of the mythology,the Sidhe were originally humanoid-the Tuatha De Dannan ,but were defeated by new invaders and as part of a pact were transformed in to spirits and given the "underground".

Possibly George is basing his Others story on this.Iirc,the Others didn't appear until after the invasion of the First Men.

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Came for the first time during the Long Winter/Night according to Old Nan - but then again she was wrong about them being dead.

i think they have always lived in the land of always winter just came south during long night

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