Queen Jeyne Westerling/Theories

[stephanson]

Is it sad that I believe this theory just because I want to believe that 1. Jeyne did love robb and he wasnt in love with a double crosser and 2. I want robb to have an heir and something of him left behind.

[BlueHighwind]

I think Jeyne is done. The Westerlings played their part in the Lannister-Bolton-Frey conspiracy to take down Robb and they got their payment. I think they're out of the story now.

[Blackfyre Bob]

I don't think they're out of the story; at least not yet. Otherwise, why have Jaime run into the Westerlings? His interaction with them didn't seem like closure, in fact, it seemed more like it was subtly introducing the idea of Robb having an heir, especially considering some of the other posters' ideas, most notably the hypothetical Jeyne/Elenya switch

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

They are definitely not out yet. The Blackfish is unaccounted for. And with Jaime telling Mama Westerling that her son would be married to the bastard Joy you know she won't be happy and may just go along with the plot her daughter cooked up....IF what I suspect happened truly did occur.

[Tharvot]

Hopefully its another identity switch because I really liked Rob & Jeyne, even though it kinda ruined everything for Robb, and I really enjoyed Robb's asskickery on the battlefield. He deserves to have an heir.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Hopefully its another identity switch because I really liked Rob & Jeyne, even though it kinda ruined everything for Robb, and I really enjoyed Robb's asskickery on the battlefield. He deserves to have an heir.

Robb has an heir! That’s what the whole will thing is about. We just don’t know who it is yet. However, it’s probably a legitimized Jon.

[Onion Ring Knight]

Robb has an heir! That’s what the whole will thing is about. We just don’t know who it is yet. However, it’s probably a legitimized Jon.

You know, this brings up an old argument from the GRRM usenet and old Ezboard discussion forum days - what does it take to legitimize a bastard in Westeros? A signed decree from the liege lord of the House? A decree from the King (of whatever throne)? Either? I know Roose Bolton legitimized Ramsay Snow, and Jon has been offered the Stark name and lands by Stannis (and possibly - probably? - Robb's will). Are there other instances in the books or the Dunk & Egg stories that provide more guidance?

[perfy]

If Jeyne's switched, it's obvious her mother is part of the plot. And she's not the first person to cross the Lannisters...

As someone else said, with Tywin dead crossing the Lannisters isn't really that risky. The house has a history of being rich, but not much else. Much of the way Tywin is was brought upon by his disdain for his father's subjects all laughing at him. Reading the Dunk and Egg novellas mention multiple lords of Lannister, but none of them are described as fearsome. The grey lion comes to mind.

Granted the Westerlings won't know what is about to happen to Kevan, but if Jeyne did escape with the blackfish, like someone else said, there isn't much of an alternative than to play along with things.

[Visual909]

although even if Kevan still alive he never struck me as cruel or vindictive like Tywin was if anything he was probably the kindest and most noble of the Lannisters. So while if she was pregnant and he found out I don't think he would have been the one to order a dead baby.

[Melq]

Theres been speculation I've read on other boards that she was switched before Jaime Lannister and the Freys took over Riverrun. I wanted to see what other people thought about this.

This is based off the very different descriptions of Jeyne given by Cat and later by Jaime. Specifically Cat references her "full hips" which are great for child bearing and that she should be fertile. Later on Jaime says that she has "narrow hips".

So some have suggested that perhaps Jeyne was pregnant and was switched with someone in the household so that she could escape with the Blackfish and give birth to Robb's child (hopefully a SON).

I hope its true and I hope we find out more about her in the next book. I'm also hoping Edmure Tully is freed soon so he can rally Riverrun and fight back against those treacherous Freys.

I find this really strange, I never noticed this before because in the spanish version of the book in AFFC it says something similar to " Generous Hips" instead of "narrow hips", I hope its a translation error.

I think this theory is probably truth, besides GRRM have been playing with the "Jeyne" name a lot.

[CrypticWeirwood]

You know, this brings up an old argument from the GRRM usenet and old Ezboard discussion forum days - what does it take to legitimize a bastard in Westeros? A signed decree from the liege lord of the House? A decree from the King (of whatever throne)? Either? I know Roose Bolton legitimized Ramsay Snow, and Jon has been offered the Stark name and lands by Stannis (and possibly - probably? - Robb's will). Are there other instances in the books or the Dunk & Egg stories that provide more guidance?

In historical Britain, it took a sitting monarch signing an act of parliament.

In A Song of Ice and Fire, it takes a monarch signing a decree. King Tommen, not Roose, legitimized Ramsey, and King Aegon the Unworthy legitimized Bloodraven et alios.

Tommen and Stannis would not recognize Robb’s right to legitimize anyone, because they do not recognize Robb’s crown; only other northmen do.

It becomes even more bizarre if Jon is not Ned’s son. If he is a bastard, then Robb could wipe away his bastardy, but only in the eyes of the North. And the North does not recognize a claimant to the Iron Throne. However, once legit, he could have a claim through Ned’s sister if all Ned’s own children and their issue are all dead.

But if Jon is legit all along, no decree matters much anyway, although it might cover more bases that way.

[Dread Pirate Euron]

I think one hole in the idea of pregnant Jeyne escaping with Blackfish is the manner of escape. Blackfish swam under the portcullis, out into the river, and then started voyaging through the riverlands. How on earth is a fully pregnant girl supposed to the same? The physical exertion of such a voyage, not to mention the difficulties of giving birth on the lamb, would not bode well for her child.

I think it's safe to assume that Edmure told the truth about the escape route given the nature of Riverrun's defenses (3 sides of water). The only other alternative would be a Crypts of Winterfell situation.

[Imascotsman]

Jeyne may have been 2-3 months pregnant or so when/if she did escape, it is not like she is a cripple at that stage. The book offers up so many theories on so many characters.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

I think the real Jeyne escaped.

Two things sealed it for me. One was the Wolf banner which flew on the highest spire of the castle. Martin takes pains to point that out. It's more prominently displayed than the Tully banner. That says something. The next day, when the Blackfish (and Jeyne) are gone the banner is gone too. We never see it lowered. It symbolizes that the wolf queen fled.

Second, the mark on 'Jeyne's' head. Her mother claims it came from a fight over her crown, but that seems like a lame throwaway excuse. Also, the sister playing Jeyne wasn't a magnificent actor. She says very little actually and quickly storms off.

The real Jeyne escaping also explains why the Blackfish has been so stubborn. Even though every other lord bent the knee, he's been holding out for Jeyne to give birth.

As far as a pregnant girl swimming under the gate -- this is fantasy. Mormont and Barristan survived crawling through a sewer which was waist high with human waste. The fumes would kill you in the real world.

Finally, Robb's heir doesn't have to do anything plot wise besides setup a potential true-blooded Lord of the North for the future (after the books). It's not like we're going to see Rickken rule the North either. They're both too young.

[alienarea]

Assuming a pregnant Jeyne escaped with the Blackfish they could run into Brienne leading Jaime to UnCat. That could be interesting.

[Alric Stark]

Of all the theories I have seen on the boards this might be my favortie simply because Robb had so much go wrong seeing his line continue after Joffery's ended would be nice poetic justice.

[Tharvot]

If Jeyne did escape, who is to say she fled the same way and at the same time as the Blackfish? She very well could have fled the night before to a specified local where the Blackfish was heading after his escape. Certainly, the guards in Riverrun were sympathetic to her cause and would have been able to keep it secret from her mother that Jeyne had fled.

[dreamcatcher]

I think the real Jeyne escaped.

Two things sealed it for me. One was the Wolf banner which flew on the highest spire of the castle. Martin takes pains to point that out. It's more prominently displayed than the Tully banner. That says something. The next day, when the Blackfish (and Jeyne) are gone the banner is gone too. We never see it lowered. It symbolizes that the wolf queen fled.

It's similar to the Tower of Joy, with the heir to the throne being there. I like it.

Finally, Robb's heir doesn't have to do anything plot wise besides setup a potential true-blooded Lord of the North for the future (after the books). It's not like we're going to see Rickken rule the North either. They're both too young.

It would be awesome if a Stark raised the child (if Jeyne dies) and thus continues the Starkiness of the line.

[Giskard Reventlov]

Considering that with the appearance of Aegon GRRM has entered dallas/dynasty soap opera territory everything is possible.

However, although I would like that Jayne escapes with Robb's heir don;t think it is going that way.. Especially since the Davos is looking for Rickon.

[jarl the climber]

I think we have to look how this relationship is presented to us in the book. We first see Jeyne in Cats PoV in ASOS, Robb introduces her to his mum and then in private conversation makes 3 points. 1. That Jeyne is old blood 2. He could have settled the affair with Stevron Frey but there were issues between him and Black Walder. 3. He made the marriage without the Fathers permission, so he knew there were problems for and with Jeynes family. 3A. Grey Wind bared fangs at her maternal uncle, scared her mum, made Jeyne anxious.

Next we see the marriage being discussed by Tywin, Kevan and Tyrion. 1. Kevan says that Jeyne seemed like a sweet girl but that her maternal Grandmother was a scary maegi woman form the East, who married a merchant, she sold potions and that her blood was to doubtful to marry one of his children. 2. Tywinc rather than being angered by the marriage seems pleased, says that Jeyne is her Mothers daughter.

Then we see Jeyne in a Catelyn PoV . She has a discussion with Cat about Robb. Robb is withdrawn after the executing Karstark. Jeyne says he should use an executioner and then mentions the potion that Mum is giving her to help get pregnant. Jeyne walks away from the conversation cheerfuly proclaiming her determination to be there for Robb. Earlier Cat was worried that Jeyne would be upset because she probaly had played with the two people that Karstark killed when she was growing up but strangely she doesn't even mention it, Kevan said in the earlier chapter that he only saw her once, I think.

The next time we see Jeyne is in a Cat PoV, she says farewell to Robb three seperate times, in the Godswood, at the gates, and she rides outs once he has left and tries to convince him to let her go with him and he sends her back. Cat notices that Robb seems most at ease among the Westerlings. She had earlier convinced Robb to send Ser Rolph Spicer off because Grey Wind doesn't like him. Cat convinced Robb to leave Jeyne at Riverrun because her presence might offend Walder Frey who he is trying to appease.

At the Wedding when Robb is dying Cat mention Jeyne and tells Robb to go to him. He says "Jeyne?", "Mother.", "Grey Wind......",. Granted the fellow is dying but why does he make her name a question. Robb has Jeynes brother stay with Grey Wind while he is at the Twins.

While discussing the sucsession with Cat in an earlier chapter Grey Wind bares his fangs at Cat when she questions Jons loyalty. Grey Wind acts agressively towards the Freys when they come out to greet him at the Twins. Robb tries to get Walder Frey to allow Grey Wind into the Twins during the wedding which is contrary to what he did at Riverrun where he insisted that Grey Wind stay in the kennel instead of at his side.

The next time the Westerlings arer brought up Tommen is giving them pardons. Ser Rolph is given the lordship of Castamere. We never actually see Grey Wind bare his fangs at this guy. Robb says that his wolf has no fear of men and he has begun to have doubts about the gods sending them because of Bran and Rickon being killed. This attitude seems to change once he leaves Riverrun.

When Jamie is talking to the Blackfish he first tries to trade Edmure for Sybell and her 3 children. The Blackfish laughs at this and refuses. Then after the castle is surrendered we finaly see Jeyne again, she has a scab on her head and her face is puffy, shes seems scared and distraught and Jamie quickly dismisses her and most of the scene is conversation between the Mum and Jamie. Jamie remarks that her hips are narrow but Cat had mentioned earlier that she had good child bearing hips.

The last time we saw Jeyne, she is hooded, her clothes are ripped as a sign of mourning. Jamie mentions the Father as seeming grave I beleive and that her Mother looks at her with eyes like chips of ice. Jamie tells Prester who is in charge of her escort to place archers around her with orders to feather her in case she tries to escape. Prester seems shocked by the order but agrees. Jamies is sympathetic to Jeyne but considers her to be a girl not worth losing a kingdom over, he had met her once but really couldn't remember her. The Mum reminds him of his sister, he calls her a scheming bitch to her face, wonders how much her husband knew of her dealings. We also find out that the brother who accompanied Robb to the Twins is probaly dead, killed for freeing Grey Wind when the Freys came to kill him. Jamie does not mention what he told her family.

As far as the other Westerling siblings go, the young boy is Robbs squire and Cat says that Eleyna is a girl around Sansas age.

A lot of people tend to focus on the narrow hip, good hip thing. IMO this whole thing seems completly bizare. Cat was under house arrest after freeing the Kingslayer. She was also denied any information of what was going on til Robb came back. From there onward she is more or less given what information that Robb decides to give her. We can see that Robb is concerned about what the marriage could cost Jeynes family. He knows at the very least that her Father might not be to crazy about it. He is concerned about who will sucseed him if he dies. The one fact that the TV show presents is that Jeynes maternal family might have come from Volantis, this is as good as anywhere else I suppose. Admittedly a lot doesn't add up really, the narrow hip, wide hip thing is the tip of the iceberg.