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Queen Jeyne Westerling/Theories


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What you suggest is actually the common "Tywin was in on it from the beginning and Sybell gave Jeyne moon tea" idea. I suspect there's much more to it than that. For one thing, a lot of it was out of Tywin's control. Robb might not have gotten wounded. It was grieving over his brothers that made Robb more susceptible; Tywin had nothing to do with that. I'm willing to believe that Sybell and Tywin might have been in league AFTER the marriage — even though I think Jeyne escaped and it possibly pregnant. But it's too far-fetched for me to think Tywin had the entire thing set up. He's not omnipotent.

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Doesn't Martin at one point in one of the novels mention that the Westerlings are an old house full of pride (or perhaps honor or ambition)?

I think its just as likely that she double crossed Tywin Lannister from the get go.....and probably as payback for some wrong the Lannisters did to the Westerlings. Theres a lot more than meets the eye here.

And especially the "Joy" angel. Tywin would have had to put that in the first note detailing the benefits if she betrayed Robb. And her being smart and ambitions she probably investigated and FOUND OUT that the Lannisters planned to marry her first son (her pride and joy) to a bastard daughter.

Then perhaps Sybelle got pissed off and decided to turn against them.....leading to her plotting with the Blackfish.

I have a feeling that either Jeyne, her mother, or the Blackfish will the POV character for the Prologue in the Winds of Winter....and it will take place at Casterly Rock or nearby there.

The only other option is Storms End....

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What I think may have started it is when Robb took the Westerlings lands. Lord Westerling probably sent Tywin a plea or some sort and maybe it got started that way? I didn't mean to imply that Twyin planned it from the get go. I mean he took advantage of Robb and Jeyne's feelings/attraction or whatever information he received from Lord or Lady Westerling (or whoever).

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Sybell Westerling had her oldest son Raynald killed at the Red Wedding. That's motivation enough for her to plot to help Jeyne escape.

The Maggy the Frog connection is a big variable. If Sybell heard a prophecy that could explain virtually any action.

Even if she's planned to betray Robb, it makes sense to let her daughter get pregnant to keep all options on the table. Nothing but Winter is certain.

I still don't understand why the Westerlings even matter for the Red Wedding. What exactly did they do? The marriage was common knowledge. The Boltons and Freys were sufficient to plan and carry out the betrayal without any help, cooperation or consent from the Westerlings. How would it have been any different if the Westerlings were completely loyal to the Starks?

That's a great point about Lady Sybel's motivation to "betray" the Lannisters.

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Just a thought.

This theory stems from the difference in hip-width between the Jeyne described by Cat and the one described by Jaime.

Maybe Cat and Jaime have different standards for what pass as 'wide hips'?

Jaime may like his women 'full-bodied' :cool4:

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It could simply be another Renly eye colour fiasco.

To the above post, that would hinder on whether Cersei is plump.

She is regarded as slim, or at least where her neck is concerned, perfect for strangling.

Sorry Double post.

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And depending on how Martin ends the series its entirely possible that Robb's son will be King in the North with Queen Jeyne as his Regent. Bran or Rickon would Lord of Winterfell and the other could be Lord of the Twins once the Freys are extinct.

Winterfell is the seat of the King of the North, Robb's son would be definitely be Lord of Winterfell as well

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Just a thought. This theory stems from the difference in hip-width between the Jeyne described by Cat and the one described by Jaime. Maybe Cat and Jaime have different standards for what pass as 'wide hips'? Jaime may like his women 'full-bodied' :cool4:

There's more to it than the hips. The discrepancy is a good starting-off point, but it's by no means the only piece of evidence. The biggest one, even bigger than the hips, for me is, where's her sister? There are supposed to be three Westerling children at Riverrun and we only see one ("Jeyne") and hear about another (Rollam). We never see a second girl, not even when Jaime sees the family leave.

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It could simply be another Renly eye colour fiasco.

That’s all this is. In other translations, notably the Russian one, this disparity doesn’t exist. I can’t find the reference right now, but Martin said that it was not intentional, that it was a flub-up. People are making a great deal out of something that isn’t even real per Martin himself.

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That’s all this is. In other translations, notably the Russian one, this disparity doesn’t exist. I can’t find the reference right now, but Martin said that it was not intentional, that it was a flub-up. People are making a great deal out of something that isn’t even real per Martin himself.

Maybe you should find a source first before calling the whole thread a fiasco...

Do translations even matter? It's him who's writing the story, not the translators.

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That’s all this is. In other translations, notably the Russian one, this disparity doesn’t exist. I can’t find the reference right now, but Martin said that it was not intentional, that it was a flub-up. People are making a great deal out of something that isn’t even real per Martin himself.

Same happens in the Spanish version, but I have noticed other mistakes in translations too, but we can be sure that the "English" version is the Official written by GRRM and on that version it shows the difference in Jeyne description.

In the Spanish version a couple of lines after the " Generous Hips" instead of "narrow hips" translation error, there is the conversation between Jaime and Ser Forley which looks like hes confused about the girl and Jaime says its Robb's Wife to finish the conversation , for me it sound like Ser Forley knows that is not Jeyne Westerling but her little sister and think Jaime doesn't really care for it.

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That’s all this is. In other translations, notably the Russian one, this disparity doesn’t exist. I can’t find the reference right now, but Martin said that it was not intentional, that it was a flub-up. People are making a great deal out of something that isn’t even real per Martin himself.

If the translator/foreign editor did the previous books then they might have tried to correct what they perceived as a mistake without knowing if it was a mistake or not. I work as a translator too, and I have seen these things happening. And the translator doesn't usually have access to the author to ask questions

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I don't really buy this theory b/c I think the girl Jaime interacts w/ at Riverrun is to convincing in her grief to not be Jeyne. But, that being said, the thoughts Jaime has upon first seeing her: "pretty enough for a child ... But not a girl to lose a kingdom for" are perfectly true is this girl is in fact Jeyne's sister, and not Jeyne herself.

That seems very much Martin's style to me. Hiding it in plain sight so to speak.

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That’s all this is. In other translations, notably the Russian one, this disparity doesn’t exist. I can’t find the reference right now, but Martin said that it was not intentional, that it was a flub-up. People are making a great deal out of something that isn’t even real per Martin himself.

No one can ever find the reference, it seems. And as other people have said, stuff happens in translations all the time.

I don't really buy this theory b/c I think the girl Jaime interacts w/ at Riverrun is to convincing in her grief to not be Jeyne. But, that being said, the thoughts Jaime has upon first seeing her are "pretty enough for a child ... But not a girl to lose a kingdom for" are perfectly true is this girl is in fact Jeyne's sister, and not Jeyne herself. That seems very much Martin's tile to me. Hiding it in plain sight so to speak.

If Jeyne's sister was fond of Robb and had just been violently punished by her mother, she could come off as being genuinely upset. There's no reason to think that she's faking it.

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The one thing that might lessen Mother Westerlings involvment is do we know exactly when she found out that her son died at the Red Wedding? If I remember correctly she inquires about him during her meeting with Jaime after the Blackfish had already disappeared.

If she had known that he was dead before the official surrender I can see her acting to trick the Lannisters and Jaime. But if she didn't know it makes it difficult to see why she would go along with this switching trick....

This is speculation, but maybe she assumed that he was dead because she had not heard from him. Perhaps she knew he was dead and was testing Jamie to see whether he knew. I don't really know for sure.

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As far as Queen Jeyne's brother dying at the Red Wedding, there is no body, he was shot with arrows while freeing Greywind and fell in the River. He is suspected of being dead but GRRM made a point of leaving it like this for now and his mother pissed about it.

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This is speculation, but maybe she assumed that he was dead because she had not heard from him. Perhaps she knew he was dead and was testing Jamie to see whether he knew. I don't really know for sure.

Yeah I agree and that's why I originally created this thread because to me this was one of the most jarring aspects of A Feast for Crows. Something about Jeyne, her mother, Jaime and the whole situation just struck me as odd and in the back of my mind this voice was screaming "Martin is up to something here".

I think some major developments are going to happen with Robb's widow and the Westerlings in the next novel for sure.

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There's one scene where jamie says something about why the Stark banner is up since Robb is dead and Edmure is strangely Smug.

Then there's another where Jamie asks Jeyne if she pregnant and she tries to bail out the room... Somethings...fishy and it's not Blackfishes escape.

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OMG....what if she was pregnant ALL this time and GAVE BIRTH already!?!?!

And the Blackfish TOOK the baby with him when he escaped the castle? I know they say he swam but perhaps he used another route since he had the baby and that was just a lie? And Jeyne is crying because she was separated from her child?

I'll admit I don't know about the timing of all this but perhaps its possible?

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