Queen Jeyne Westerling/Theories

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The crown was in the Frey camp on "The Queen of Whores" I think, I coud be wrong though. I agree with Apple Martini though. The Blackfish owing nothing to Queen Jeyne's mother, only to Queen Jeyne herself, probably told her after Edmure advised of surrender, we have to get you out of here now, can you trust anyone? Jeyne and her sister are probably close and she was the only person she could think of and there you are. Well said Apple.

That was Robb's crown. And that was in the camp before Riverrun fell, so it wouldn't have been Jeyne's. Sybell tells Jaime that "Jeyne" put up a fight when they tried to take her crown, but we never see this crown. Wouldn't the proper course have been for Sybell or "Jeyne" to present it to Jaime in surrender? Like how Torrhen gave up the Crown of Winter to Aegon I?

Two things sealed it for me. One was the Wolf banner which flew on the highest spire of the castle. Martin takes pains to point that out. It's more prominently displayed than the Tully banner. That says something. The next day, when the Blackfish (and Jeyne) are gone the banner is gone too. We never see it lowered. It symbolizes that the wolf queen fled.

I hadn't even considered this before, but if you think about its implications, it could be huge.

You sort of have to know how standards work in terms of royal residency. Take the Queen of England. When she's in residence somewhere — Buckingham, Windsor, Balmoral, wherever — the flag flying is her royal standard. When she's not in residence, the British flag flies. That's how you know if she's "home" — you look to see which flag is flying.

If the Stark sigil works in the same way, lowering it before the enemy (the Lannisters and Freys outside) enters Riverrun could be a way, as you suggest, to subtly show that Jeyne (and her possible child) is gone. The fact that the Stark sigil is flying at all, even if it has no significance in terms of residency, is big, too. Granted the ins and outs of Robb's will have yet to be seen fully, but at that time, Robb was dead, Bran and Rickon were thought to be dead, Arya's missing and presumed dead, and Sansa is Lady Lannister and all but cut out. So who, pray tell, are they flying the flag for?

[jarl the climber]

A couple of more observations

Tywin remarks that Robb was to have been killed at Edmures wedding feast. He also states that he was to well protected in the feild to assasinate. Yet he is wounded by an arrow taking the Crag, the wound festers, why not kill him then? Its seems like Jeyne and her family saved him. Why, so he could be killed later?

Nor is there any evidence that Robbs bannermen had a problem with the marriage. The Greatjon wanted to kill the Freys when they objected.

Why didn't one of them kill Jeyne to save the alliance?

When Cat is talking to Jeyne at one point, Jeyne mentions that she is praying to the Mother for a child, Cat corrects her and says she is praying to the old gods and new. I was never clear on how they were married, in a sept or a godswood. Was there even a Godswood at the Crag? Its seems likely considering the Westerlings traced back to the First Men. Robb was a hardcore Old God worshiper, this points to him being aware of his being a warg. Considering the people he had with him, Umbers, Mormonts, Mountian clans, he must have known, The other children either knew or were having wolf dreams by the time ASOS started excepting Sansa, whos wolf died, Rickon like Robb is an unknown.

Jon notices Myrcella smiling shyly at Robb. Jon comments that she seems insipid and Robb is to stupid to notice. Cat wonders if he ever kissed a girl, he thought maybr he had kissed Jeyne Poole. There is another scene where he is talking to Theon about Kyra but has him shut up because Bran is there. Theon was a womanizer and him and Theon were close, I don't think Robb was a virgin.

I beleive the Blackwoods had a Dire Wolf banner flying over their castle as well I beleive.

My basic problem with Jeyne is that she seems to be an idiot. The North would be better off without her unless there is more to her than we are seeing.

[Miriamele]

Just encouraging a healthy debate - Elanya was described as a "little girl" in ASoS. I don't think she's tall... But I sure as hell hope that that was her and Jeyne's pregnant somewhere (or already given birth... I don't know the timeline).

Maybe they referred to her age when they called her a little girl. Or she had a growth spurt. It happens.

Plus I know pregnant women who regularly swam during their pregnancy one even did aquafitness in cold water. I know it's not the same as swimming in a river, but still, if she is a really good swimmer and is desperate...

Anyway, could Jeyne have some magical powers like her grandmother? She acted really nervous when Robb was leaving. Maybe she was starting to have visions of the future (or simply suspected something) and tried to warn Robb but he wouldn't take her seriously. And if she was suspicious of her mother, she could've stopped taking the moon tea as well.

Although she did seem like a negative influence. Robb broke his engagement and kept Grey Wind away because of her. What if she originally was in on the plot, but then really fell in love with him?

[Tharvot]

Either the Westerlings were very good actors (at least the ones who seemed to be highly supportive of Robb) and were all or mostly all in on the plot, or only a few were in on it (mom and dad). Its appropriate that they were given the ruins of Castamere for their roles in the RW though. Hopefully it will be raining sh*t on them for quite some time.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

A couple of more observations

Tywin remarks that Robb was to have been killed at Edmures wedding feast. He also states that he was to well protected in the feild to assasinate. Yet he is wounded by an arrow taking the Crag, the wound festers, why not kill him then? Its seems like Jeyne and her family saved him. Why, so he could be killed later?

Probably the best argument I've seen to undermine the "Tywin was in on it from the very beginning" contingent. If he was, the Westerlings would/should have killed Robb then, and just told his men he died from his wounds. Or if a Lannister alliance was at all on the radar, they should have killed Robb then. But they didn't.

Either the alliance came later (how much later, and are the Westerlings honoring it?), or it was in the works then and Sybell was actively playing both sides, in which case, she should want to give Jeyne the fertility potion.

Anyway, could Jeyne have some magical powers like her grandmother? She acted really nervous when Robb was leaving. Maybe she was starting to have visions of the future (or simply suspected something) and tried to warn Robb but he wouldn't take her seriously. And if she was suspicious of her mother, she could've stopped taking the moon tea as well.

Either or both of these could be the case. People use Jeyne's nervousness at sending Robb off as evidence that the Westerlings were in on the Red Wedding at that time, but I'm not so sure. Sybell says that if she'd known what would happen, she wouldn't have sent Raynald off. And Catelyn and Robb decide to leave his Westerling squire behind so as not to offend the Freys; it's not like the Westerlings begged out of it. It's entirely possible that Jeyne had had a vision or something and had some idea of what was happening, but was unable to articulate it. If she was in fact being given moon tea, those same premonitions could have been enough to quit.

Although I still think people make a big, big error in taking Sybell's word to Jaime at face value. Tywin's obviously not alive to corroborate the statement, and other incidents like the Red Wedding should show that the Westerlings' participation wasn't that deep. When Tywin talks about it with Tyrion, I don't get the impression that it was some far-flung plot, as much as it looks like the Westerlings were an afterthought.

Another thing ... they add up so fast ... Joy Hill is promised to one of Walder Frey's bastards, yet later on, she's supposed to marry a Westerling. It's what got Sybell all ticked off (or more ticked off, I should say), when Jaime visits. But again, that just shows that the marriage pact with Joy is very, very new. If the Lannister-Westerling pact was older than even the Red Wedding, why wasn't Joy betrothed to one of the Westerling boys then, and why is it a surprise to Sybell? Unless Tywin was lying to Tyrion, which is possible. It almost reads like the Westerlings swore fealty to Tommen AND swore to Tywin that Jeyne wouldn't have a baby, such that they got Castamere and the marriages. I think it was preventing Jeyne from having a baby that made them "earn" their new castle and marriages, not any real betrayal of Robb. And as others have suggested, even if Sybell had been giving Jeyne a fertility potion, a quick chug of moon tea could end a pregnancy. Sybell did not have to be giving Jeyne moon tea the entire time in order to prevent her from having a baby. The pinch is, Jeyne skipped town before Sybell may have had the chance to abort her baby.

Their reward can't have been anything to do with planning the Red Wedding, because they lost one son there, could have easily lost another, and aren't mentioned at all when Tywin explains the plot to Tyrion. It's almost like, when Jaime visits Sybell, she's trying to overplay her hand and convince Jaime that the Westerlings were more involved than they really were. And with Tywin dead, who's going to refute her? Jaime wasn't present when Tywin explained it to Tyrion, so why should he know how it went down? Protesting too much — "oh yeah, we were in on it from very early on!" — might also prevent Jaime from looking too hard at "Jeyne" or worrying about a doppelganger. Whereas if the Westerlings admitted that they only got in with the Lannisters after the fact and had been actually very loyal to Robb, it might have given Jaime cause to be more skeptical about "Jeyne."

Finally ... if they plotted with Tywin before the Red Wedding, when would they have done it, exactly? The entire family, except Gawen, who it appears wasn't in on it, was at Riverrun and you can pretty much guarantee that any ravens and letters going in and out were closely guarded. Rolph Spicer didn't separate from Robb until right before the Red Wedding, when it already would have been planned. So how was this plot concocted, if it was concocted, before the Red Wedding?

[Visual909]

Hmm good point at best I can see the only real time they would have been able to be a part of the RW is if it had been planned before Robb's invasion of the crags, and Jeyne was to seduce him. But that doesn't feel right to me. The more I read this thread the more skeptical I'm becoming of how that whole scene with Jaime was at face value.

[Finlay]

Better be a boy

[CrypticWeirwood]

Better be a boy

No worries there: most children in Martinverse are boys. If you look at sets of siblings, they are ridiculously male-dominated in A Song of Fire and Ice. Girls really are the uncommon exception. One wonders that there are so many children at all, given the imbalance, since two men cannot make a baby.

It may well be that there is some quiet infanticide of girl babies going on, as so sadly still occurs in some parts of our own world. Or perhaps this is part of his freaky genetics.

This does go some ways toward explaining all the wars in Martinverse: too many excess males. Whenever you have too many extra males in a populace, you get fighting and bloodshed. Maybe this even explains how strangely common eunuchs seem to be in Essos.

[kg1982]

I hate, hate, hate the Jeyne is totally preggers with Robb's baby subplot because it makes the Winterfell succession even more complicated. Robb and Jeyne's child, regardless of gender, would inherit before any of the remaining Stark siblings, and I'm of the belief that Rickon only exists to be the Stark at Winterfell at the end (with Davos or Sansa as his regent), so I'm not sure exactly why Rickon exists in a Jeyne is preggers scenario. Plus, Jeyne is about as interesting as watching paint dry.. (TV Jeyne is much more interesting and I wouldn't mind it if she was in the story after Robb dies).

However, there is some good circumstantial evidence to suggest that Jeyne fled Riverrun.. So here is my theory. Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood kills Jeyne (and real Jeyne, not Elena). Right now, I think lots of people are wholeheartedly applauding the wholesale Frey slaughter by the Brotherhood, Manderlys, etc. I think that there is going to be at least a few more sort of hell yeah! moments in Winds of Winter (such as the Brotherhood's reenactment of the Red Wedding at Riverrun). However, Martin has never been a big fan of hell yeah! brutal one-sided revenge, and the best way to do that is to kill someone sympathetic who is carrying the child of another sympathetic, dead character. It would show how far gone Cat on revenge if she kills Jeyne and her grandchild.

There has been the death of sympathetic fairly major character since RW, so I'm thinking that the Winds of Winter is going to be full of them. I'm betting on at least Margaery, Tommen, and Jeyne Westerling.

[Khal Yolo]

I'm not buying into the whole "Stark banner is lowered when Jeyne is smuggled out" as a piece of evidence. Riverrun was sworn to the King in North, and Robb's capital for all intents and purposes. The lowering of the Stark banner signaled the yield of Riverrun and the end of Robb's campaign, nothing more.

If Jeyne was secretly smuggled out, why would they make such an overt gesture that she left?

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

I think shes definitely gone and is carrying Robb's son.

And depending on how Martin ends the series its entirely possible that Robb's son will be King in the North with Queen Jeyne as his Regent.

Bran or Rickon would Lord of Winterfell and the other could be Lord of the Twins once the Freys are extinct. And heck even the Boltons will eventually all die IMO so there's plenty of titles to go around.

Sansa will marry some Southron lord though and maybe even end up as Queen of the South.....

But I'm fully convinced that more is going on with the Blackfish and Jeyne Westerling at this point. Hes out there somewhere guarding her and waiting for the right opportunity. It may come when Manderly returns to White Harbor. Or it may be later on after Stannis and Ramsay finish killing each other.

[Ragnorak]

Sybell Westerling had her oldest son Raynald killed at the Red Wedding. That's motivation enough for her to plot to help Jeyne escape.

The Maggy the Frog connection is a big variable. If Sybell heard a prophecy that could explain virtually any action.

Even if she's planned to betray Robb, it makes sense to let her daughter get pregnant to keep all options on the table. Nothing but Winter is certain.

I still don't understand why the Westerlings even matter for the Red Wedding. What exactly did they do? The marriage was common knowledge. The Boltons and Freys were sufficient to plan and carry out the betrayal without any help, cooperation or consent from the Westerlings. How would it have been any different if the Westerlings were completely loyal to the Starks?

[QuaitheTheShadow]

I'm not buying into the whole "Stark banner is lowered when Jeyne is smuggled out" as a piece of evidence. Riverrun was sworn to the King in North, and Robb's capital for all intents and purposes. The lowering of the Stark banner signaled the yield of Riverrun and the end of Robb's campaign, nothing more.

Why have the direwolf flying from the highest spire of the castle? Defiance maybe, but it seems a bit over-emphasized.

If Jeyne was secretly smuggled out, why would they make such an overt gesture that she left?

It has duel significance so it's not overt. You'd normally lower the banner when you surrender anyway, but they did it covertly at night. Why?

Assuming the real Jeyne is in custody - why did the Blackfish flee and forsake his vow to protect her to Robb?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Why have the direwolf flying from the highest spire of the castle? Defiance maybe, but it seems a bit over-emphasized.

I think this is important. At this point, Robb's dead, Bran and Rickon and Arya are presumed dead, and Sansa is Lady Lannister. The Blackfish stayed at Riverrun and wouldn't be privy to the will. So who are they flying the flag for?

It has duel significance so it's not overt. You'd normally lower the banner when you surrender anyway, but they did it covertly at night. Why?

Assuming the real Jeyne is in custody - why did the Blackfish flee and forsake his vow to protect her to Robb?

This exactly. It's not so much THAT they lowered it as it is WHEN they lowered. They did it in the dead of night, not when they formally surrendered the castle, i.e. when the Lannister and Frey forces entered the gates. And it makes no sense for the Blackfish to make such a big deal to Jaime about having sworn to protect Robb's queen if he just ends up ditching her a few pages later.

[Gogossos]

I believe Jeyne has Robb's heir in her belly but my proof isn't as ellaborate as some on this thread. House Westerling, we are told quite deliberately a few times, is an old old house from the blood of the First Men. They are proud but not as powerful/influencial, setting the stage for a dramatic rise from the ashes. Besides, something is happening behind the scenes with the Blackfish and it's more likely to involve Jeyne.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

The one thing that might lessen Mother Westerlings involvment is do we know exactly when she found out that her son died at the Red Wedding? If I remember correctly she inquires about him during her meeting with Jaime after the Blackfish had already disappeared.

If she had known that he was dead before the official surrender I can see her acting to trick the Lannisters and Jaime. But if she didn't know it makes it difficult to see why she would go along with this switching trick....

[Lord Damian]

Well, the clock is ticking for the Westerlings returning to the Crag and or Castamere Castle.. They are under heavy guard and at some point, they are going to be confronted with some of their own people that might not see Jeyne, thus setting off some panic/concern. They may still be able to play off if Jeyne is not with them but they may be headed for their doom if the Lannisters in charge figure this out. Then again, the leaders of house Lannister are dropping like flies.

[Tharvot]

Well, the clock is ticking for the Westerlings returning to the Crag and or Castamere Castle.. They are under heavy guard and at some point, they are going to be confronted with some of their own people that might not see Jeyne, thus setting off some panic/concern. They may still be able to play off if Jeyne is not with them but they may be headed for their doom if the Lannisters in charge figure this out. Then again, the leaders of house Lannister are dropping like flies.

I think this is important. Who but Jamie and Cersei are left to do anything about it if Jeyne is not with the Westerlings when they return? Cersei is definitely preoccupied and Jamie is off with Brienne, possibly searching for Sansa.

I am a proponent of the pregnant Jeyne theory (or at least the missing Jeyne theory). IMO, the actions of Sybell Westerling were out of fear of Tywin and what he would do to repay their treason. Now, there seemingly is no major Lannister threat. If Jeyne is indeed pregnant, then the Westerlings stand to become quite powerful allies to the Stark household (assuming the Starks regain the north in time...and signs are pointing to that happening eventually).

But who knows. I enjoy the theorycrafting and guesswork about all the possible twists and turns GRRM might take us on.

[Bloodraven's Eye]

It has been mentioned that Jeyne is her "mother's daughter". I'd like to elaborate on this topic and both her and her mother's nature. If we trace back the female line of Jeyne Westerling we find her mother Sybelle Spicer and her grandmother a maegi (who I like to think might have been named Talisa Maeger? Jeyne's alias in the show). Anyways, we see that these are very ambitious women who like to marry above themselves. The question is, do they do this deliberately? Do they use some love potion passed down the female line? As far as Jeyne's lineage goes she has the blood of the first men in her and the blood of a witch, a dangerous combination. Who is to say that she hasn't inherited some power from her grandmother that has been heightened through the ancient blood of the first men? Either way, why would her mother plot against her daughter becoming queen in the north? Even if Robb is only Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North she is still marrying way up the food chain. Which, I might point out is in her nature. So the question begs, if Sybelle's hypothetical grandson stands to inherit the north and the riverlands, then why would she plot against that. Tywin's rath? Tywin is dead and his children are dwarfs, cripples, and incestual outcasts. I'm not trying to say that Jeyne only married Robb as a power play, I think she really does love him, but you can't say that her female line hasn't come far in just a few generations.

[Amber84]

I was rereading Storm of Swords this week and as I was reading these pages below, it clicked with something I'd read in ADwD.

On page 272 paperback, Tyrion and Lord Tywin are discussing Robb Starks

marriage to Jenye Westerling. This is how the scene goes : The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts, Tyrion thought.

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin.

This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as

Tyrion would have expected. "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion point out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."

"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I

promise you."

"Could the Westerlings and the Spicers be such great fools as to believe the

wolf can defeat the lion?"

Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them," Lord Tywin said.

Later on, Jeyne Westerling is talking to Lady Catelyn. Catelyn tells Jeyne that a king needs an heir to which Jenye responds "My mother says the same. She makes a posset for me, herbs and milk and ale, to help make me fertile. I drink it every morning."

When Sybil Westerling is talking to Jaime Lannister after Robb has been killed and Riverrun surrendered, she tells Jaime that his father had promised good marriages for her children, etc. Why would Lord Tywin reward betrayal? UNLESS It was not a betrayal but an elaborate ploy to get Robb to lose the Freys. Before Robb had married Jeyne, Tywin was told by his father that some battles are won with swords, others with quills and paper.

Using the above instances, I think Lord Twyin planned for the Westerlings to trick their daughter into seducing Robb and then kept her from getting pregnant with the 'fertile potion.' What do you guys think?