Warrior's Sons: Crystals, Knight-Assassins and a Trial by Magic

[GreenHand]

Near the end of AFfC Cersei strikes her bargain with the ultra-zealous "High Sparrow" reforming the Swords and Stars (orders) that constitute the Faith Militant of old. I would like to launch a discussion around the Warrior's Sons (Swords) in light of the following quote:

Cersei explained to her. “The Warrior’s Sons were an order of knights who gave up

their lands and gold and swore their swords to His High Holiness. The Poor Fellows . . . they were humbler, though far more numerous. Begging brothers of a sort,

though they carried axes instead of bowls. They wandered the roads, escorting

travelers from sept to sept and town to town. Their badge was the seven-pointed star,

red on white, so the smallfolk named them Stars. The Warrior’s Sons wore rainbow

cloaks and inlaid silver armor over hair shirts, and bore star-shaped crystals in the

pommels of their longswords. They were the Swords. Holy men, ascetics, fanatics,

sorcerers, dragonslayers, demonhunters . . . there were many tales about them. But all

agree that they were implacable in their hatred for all enemies of the Holy Faith.”

Many see the unleashing/rebirth of the Faith Militant as a dire development in the swaying politics of Westeros and a beyond-blunder by Cersei because of its military might with popular support. I think the significance of the role of the Warrior's Sons goes further.

I'm not sure this will lead anywhere substantial but I think it's worth discussing. I think this angle could do with more research I don't have the time for now.

If this post is too long, just skip to point number [6] for a taut political implication.

1] The true nature of the Warrior's Sons

Officially, especially according to the High Sparrow, the Warrior's Sons will serve to escourt the High Septon, guard the Septs and protect the faithful who travel between them. In practice I think the more-numerous-by-far Poor Fellows or 'Stars' once did and will be performing this function.

I think the elite force which is the Warrior's Sons have a far darker and more specialized purpose. And I suspect our spartan, fanatical High Sparrow has exactly this in mind. Cersei highlights for us that it is more "supernatural" threats, abominations in eyes of the Faith and very specific targets that preoccupied the knights of the Warrior's Sons. In short they are seem to be less bodyguards and an army and more assassins and hunters.

The presence of supernatural targets is on the increase in Westeros. Many of them politically important. Even dragons were a target, though possibly only because they were instruments of Targaryens born of incest. Remember the death of dragons in the Citadel and Septon Barth...

So would this hitsquad be hunting...:

Some notions:

A] Dany's Dragons when she arrives?

B] Uncat (reported by pious Ser Bonifer)?

C] Melisandre?

D] Patchface?

E] Giants/Wargs on the Wall?

F] The Destruction of Weirwoods?

G] Euron's shipful of "black sorcerors"?

H] The Great Greenseer (Bloodraven/Bran)?

...Who's the prime target?

I] Tommen & Myrcella "Baratheon"? (Monarchs born of incest)

2] A link with the Faith: Oldtown, the Citadel & A Rare Book

Once upon a time (until ~140 years ago) the head and heart of the Faith of the Seven resided in Oldtown (the Starry Sept). It is worth speculating on the relationship between the Citadel and the Faith.I cannot think of any direct indication.

However, in her pro-Old North Ways anti-Maester speech Lady Barbrey Ryswell-Dustin suggests that Maesters are Southron and have no place in the North. We know that the first Andals were explicitly religious carving seven-pointed stars on their chests.

One might suggest that House Hightower is an ancient house once First Men, possibly powerful before the coming of the Andals. Nonetheless if the maesters are indeed uniquely Southron then they may well have integrated into Andal culture over the last millenia and retain historical links with the Faith even though they seem to promote a secular, empiricist agenda in modern times.

Outside of Warging/Greenseeing and followers of specific (other) orders (Rh'llor,Alchemists Guild,Faceless Men), Oldtown is only place where we have seen actual material magick practiced, studied and equiped for (glass candle). We are reminded many times of the rare book Blood and Fire also known as the Death of Dragons, in a vault below the Citadel. We also know that King Baelor the Blessed Targaryen went on a book burning rampage. Certainly nothing within the auspices of the Faith was safe so perhaps many books stored within the Starry Sept were smuggled to the Citadel for safer keeping. Many Septons have been mentioned as great scholars and authors of noteworthy books (i.e. there is a scholarly tradition and appreciation for books amongst certain elements of the Faith). Many have assumed that the book on killing dragons belonged to the Citadel since they are the keepers of knowledge and may have killed off the last dragons. But perhaps the book on killing dragons belonged to those actually publically known to hunt and slay dragons, namely the Warrior's Sons under the guidance of the Faith.

3] Magic in Religion in Westeros & Essos

In most of the religious orders introduced so far some form of magic has been glimpsed within their tradition. The red priest/preistesses of R'hollor read the future in flames, heal, birth shadows, raise the dead, glamour and resist cold & poison. The Old Gods through the greenseer & Weirnet access collective memory of past/present/(future), control/embody animals (even humans), speak to people through wind/dreams/weirwoods, prolong life, & possibly harness sacrificed blood. The "priests" of the Many Faced God (faceless men) change their faces. The Dosh Khaleen arguably make prophecy. There may have been some deductive speculation as to the powers of the Moonsingers. The Drowned God and the Seven are conspicuous by their lack of magick.

I propose that in the past members of the faith practiced forms of sanctioned "holy" magick. I think the Warrior's Sons in particular actually did use magick for their supernatural quests and oulandish foes. They are said to have been sorcerors and ascetes.

(Did King Baelor's potentially non-metaphorical & successful rescue of Aemon the Dragonknight from a Dornish snake pit involve magick?). I think the roots of that magick lie in the Faith's connection to Oldtown and the magic we observe there.

Lord Leyton and his daughter are said to practice magick in their tower in Oldtown. Marwyn and his disciples practice magick. We know that Marwyn is widely connected and frequents many dockside temples. The Sailor's Sept is also near the harbour.

The red priest Thoros discovered his powers by going through the motions of a seemingly purely symbolic R'hollor funeral ritual. But magic is strengthening in the world now. I propose that, through the Warrior's Sons emulating their ancient brethren, we will see some form of magic in the name of the Seven. They will stumble onto magick by emulating historical practices of their order, just as Thoros did.

4] Resources & Relics of the Faith

I also happen to believe that much of the magick the Warrior's Sons may use will derive from magical objects that will be termed holy relics. The real-world parallel of the Roman Catholic church was deeply committed to gathering holy relics in the middle ages. The iconic knights tale, King Arthur, revolves around the pursuit of the holy grail.

After the High Sparrow becomes High Septon we are given the impression that the is Faith stripping away and selling off all the trappings of extravagance (including expensive "relics" perhaps). This is believable given the austere appearance of the High Sparrow himself. But we do not learn who, for example, the Crystal Crown is sold to. We might also surmise that the Faith is financially well-endowed as is since it is able to lend a fortune of 1 million dragons to the crown and shrug it off. That suggest enough wealth to have no need of selling off church treasure. Enough to finance an army and enough to purchase rare artifacts.

Perhaps some of the relics were not sold but deployed. There is some precedent for "magical" objects. Consider the Dragon horn, Kraken horn, Valyrian blades, Dragonglass candle, Melisandre's rubies, Azor Ahai's Lightbringer (if it's a sword).

To stray into the crackpot: Another place that might harbour pertinent relics is the Quiet Isle where we are told all kinds of things wash up... (Is this a magical effect or just the currents?)

5] Crystals and Magic

We are told that the Warrior's Sons wielded swords with crystals embedded in their pommel's. I suspect that this may have a magical purpose.

Another thread has explored the possibility of gems throughout the story being used as the anchor for magical glamours just as a rubie maintains Melisandre's glamour on Mance Rayder (&Stannis magical red sword). It has been suggested that Rhaegar's rubies as well as Saphire & silk in Tobho Mott's armour have glamour-like magical properties. Tobho Mott can rework Valyrian steel and suggests that spells are needed.

If there is credance to this then why not crystals as well.

We have also seen poison disguised as gems in Sansa's hairnet.

Is there anything else to suggest a more-than-symbolic purpose to the crystals in the swords of the Warrior's Sons

6] Trial by Combat against Cersei's abomination Ser Robert Strong

The real kicker here is this. Cersei believes she has garanteed her victory in the upcoming trial by combat by using the inhuman Robert Strong who may even be impervious to damage with ordinary weapons (like the wights). Even his titanic armour alone makes Robert Srong seem invincible.

But...In light of the "demonhunter" history of the Warrior's Sons this choice of champion by Cersei may, in fact, be playing right into their hands. It's like sending a Vampire to kill van Hellsing.

Since the Castle guards are already talking about how Ser Robert Strong does not eat or sleep or relieve himself, its just a matter of time before such tales reach the High Sparrows ear. People confess things to their septons... So I do not think the unusual nature of the battle will be a surprise to the Faith.

I predict that whoever champions the Faith in Cersei's Trial by Combat (it may even be Lancel Lannister) they will wield a special weapon or armour specially chosen to defeat the undead. And this will tip the fight against Robert Strong. or at least make the fight non-suicidal for his Strong's opponent.

[udpaco13]

I like it. Some of it may be reaching but it has always bugged me that the "seven" haven't done anything when all these other gods are doing all kinds of cool stuff.

The one thing I do not see happening is someone of the faith beating Robert Strong unless that person is the hound. I believe he is still working away at the isle of quite and is being reformed into the Champ of the Seven. He is the only character that can beat his own brother, and if these two do not fight eventually why would GRRM have been foreshadowing it since book 1?

I either see it being the Hound chosen by the faith, or Robert Strong will beat whoever they send and get killed by the hound later in the story.

[Stark@heart]

Very interesting points. When Cercei stuck that deal, I knew it would come back to bite her, in more ways than one.

I think her trial and it's aftermath will take a good portion of the upcoming book with the trial/battle itself and then the aftermath. Like Warriors Sons and Sparrows/Stars going berserk inside Kings Landing and slaughtering all the Lannisters' men and Gold Cloaks they can find ( Payback for the all the North/ Winterfell men that were killed by her command)

I think the High Septon will clear the way for Aegon and his army and then they will go north to fight Stannis and his Red Woman. This would be the time to break out any magic or magical objects they may have but I don't think things will work out for them. They may think they have magic but it doesn't work/ do what they expect.

[Longspear Ryk]

Very interesting points. When Cercei stuck that deal, I knew it would come back to bite her, in more ways than one.

I think her trial and it's aftermath will take a good portion of the upcoming book with the trial/battle itself and then the aftermath. Like Warriors Sons and Sparrows/Stars going berserk inside Kings Landing and slaughtering all the Lannisters' men and Gold Cloaks they can find ( Payback for the all the North/ Winterfell men that were killed by her command)

I think the High Septon will clear the way for Aegon and his army and then they will go north to fight Stannis and his Red Woman. This would be the time to break out any magic or magical objects they may have but I don't think things will work out for them. They may think they have magic but it doesn't work/ do what they expect.

Wait what northmen did she have killed?

[Bran Vras]

There is so much to comment on what you said. A few remarks on the quote you provided (I am reluctant to speculate on what will happen next in the story).

The rainbow cloak of the Warrior's Sons is an ornament used again recently by Renly's Kingsguard. Of course, Tyrell power was what drove Renly's claim to the throne. I wonder if the idea of the rainbow cloak does not come from them. Whoever was behind Renly's Kingsguard might be again behind the current restoration of the Warrior's Sons.

The crystal in the pommel of longswords is quite interesting. We have seen already instances of gemstones in pommels: Stannis' sword has a ruby, as does Lyn Corbray's. Stannis' ruby is probably magical, and is possibly what makes Stannis' sword magical. I suspect the ruby gives Melisandre control over Stannis. By analogy, the crystal might provide the sword magical properties and force the Warrior's Son to be a faithful servant of the Church.

The qualifier of the Warrior's Sons that puzzles me the most is "demonhunter". We don't know what a demon is in the Seven Kingdoms. There is the demonroad in Essos. There are demons in the seven hells, reputedly.

I recall that the Faith Militants were disbanded under the reign of Jaehaerys. It was the time when Septon Barth was Hand of the King. What danger did the Faith Militant pose to the Targaryens? Is it because the Faith Militant were Dragonslayers? Was Septon Barth named Hand of the King as part of an agreement with the Church?

Were is it mentioned that Lord Hightower practices magic?

[jarl the climber]

I'll adress a couple of these:

A. Dragons- The Targaryeans had dragons when they suppressed these orders 250 years ago or so, there is no indication that they had any luck killing a dragon. Baelor prayed over his dragon eggs to bring them back.

B. Stoneheart- Not sure. They might try to destroy her or put her to rest by giving her justice for the Red Wedding. They might see her as the sympton and not the disease.

C. Mel and Thoros- would more or less be on the hit list. Mel more so than Thoros. Thoros is preaching a foriegn faith but does not seem atagonistic to the Faith. Mel has burnt Septs and Godwoods and there is evidence from Stoneheart, Brienne and even Davos that she practices black magic.

E. They would see giants and wargs as fair game, maybe.

F. Weirwoods- If they figure out that the trees can see, yes but there aren't many weirwoods south of the neck. They all ready burned them.

G. Euron and Co. would be considered the common enemy of mankind.

H. Probaly but I don't see how they get to them or even find them.

2. It says in the index of AFFC that the Hightowers welcomed the Andals and adopted their religion and ways.

3. I don't think the Faith will have great sucsess with magic because they won't condone bloodmagic.

4. The main advantage the Andals had when they invaded was steel weaponry, whether they have holy relics or weapons who can say.

5. It could be that these crystals interfere with magic, maybe they can dispel a glamour.

6. This is interesting, Cersei had a conversation with Qyburn at the end of Feast when she is a captive where this chamion comes up and another with Kevan in aDWD, Kevan thinks they were being listened in on. The Faith has probaly heard the rumors about Qyburn, they know something is up with this guy, whether they have anyway to counter it remains to be seen. I don't think the Faiths champion losing hurts them. The important thing is that they have the right to try people and that the crown recognizes it.

[jarl the climber]

There is so much to comment on what you said. A few remarks on the quote you provided (I am reluctant to speculate on what will happen new in the story).

The rainbow cloak of the Warrior's Sons is an ornament used again recently by Renly's Kingsguard. Of course, Tyrell power was what drove Renly's claim to the throne. I wonder if the idea of the rainbow cloak does not come from them. Whoever was behind Renly's Kingsguard might be again behind the current restoration of the Warrior's Sons.

The crystal in the pommel of longswords is quite interesting. We have seen already instances of gemstones in pommels: Stannis' sword has a ruby, as does Lyn Corbray's. Stannis' ruby is probably magical, and is possibly what makes Stannis' sword magical. I suspect the ruby gives Melisandre control over Stannis. By analogy, the crystal might provide the sword magical properties and force the Warrior's Son to be a faithful servant of the Church.

The qualifier of the Warrior's Sons that puzzles me the most is "demonhunter". We don't know what a demon is in the Seven Kingdoms. There is the demonroad in Essos. There are demons in the seven hells, reputedly.

I recall that the Faith Militants were disbanded under the reign of Jaehaerys. It was the time when Septon Barth was Hand of the King. What danger did the Faith Militant pause to the Targaryens? Is it because the Faith Militant were Dragonslayers? Was Septon Barth named Hand of the King as part of an agreement with the Church?

Were is it mentioned that Lord Hightower practices magic?

It because they objected to the Targaryeans practice of incest, Maegor the cruel started the war with them and Jaehaerys made the peace. In AFFC in the index under house Hightower they give a breif history of the house before they list the living members.

[GreenHand]

The one thing I do not see happening is someone of the faith beating Robert Strong unless that person is the hound. I believe he is still working away at the isle of quite and is being reformed into the Champ of the Seven. He is the only character that can beat his own brother, and if these two do not fight eventually why would GRRM have been foreshadowing it since book 1?

I either see it being the Hound chosen by the faith, or Robert Strong will beat whoever they send and get killed by the hound later in the story.

I agree that Robert Strong is still a formidable opponent. But my contention is that being undead, as we may presume RS is, makes you fundamentally different. Whatever advantages that may confer it may open up unique vulnerabilities which, for instance, only the scion of a demonhunting order would know how to exploit.

Take for example the White Walkers. There awesome power wreaks unleashed and untempered North of the Wall. None can stand against them but then our waddling-awkward fear-addled anti-fighter Sam is able to seamlessly slay one of these unstoppable Terrors. Why? Because he has magical, uber-potent Dragonglass blade on his side. And what's more it comes with a whopping element of surprise. I bet that particular White Walker had been stabbed at countless times but never saw this encounter coming.

In the same way neither Robert Strong nor his Creator in all his ingenuity expects anything but blood and steel to be pitted against Robert Strong. If some anti-undead arrow or death-aura-shield is used Robert Strong's strength and reach and damage resistance won't offer him any leverage against THAT.

[GreenHand]

There is so much to comment on what you said. ...

Please do... :)

The rainbow cloak of the Warrior's Sons is an ornament used again recently by Renly's Kingsguard. Of course, Tyrell power was what drove Renly's claim to the throne. I wonder if the idea of the rainbow cloak does not come from them. Whoever was behind Renly's Kingsguard might be again behind the current restoration of the Warrior's Sons.

Yes, Renly's Rainbow Guard struck me quite palpably. It's no coincidence. We know Renly loves pageantry and the array of personalized colours is distinctive. But he could not have been unaware of the parallel. Perhaps he thought to win the Faith to his side with a show of Seven symbolism. Renly was a pragmatist, not religious by all accounts. I also wondered what he intended to do with his Rainbow guard once he took the thrown... would he then discard and disband the existing Kingsguard?

Maester Cressen said that he loved to pretend to be heroic figures from the past in his boyhood. So perhaps he admired the Warrior's Sons in the tales he heard. Branching from the Cersei description the Warrior's Sons come off as Wizard-Knights. What could be more compelling. Is there any indication that Renly had a fascination with magick the way Sam Tarly or Bran Stark did? There is certainly some faint parallel between Renly's childhood imaginings and those Bran, but this probably true of all young boys training at arms. Jon Snow admired Daeron the Young Dragon.

I think it is only in the HBO series that Renly comments on his lack of martial talent to Loras, but in book we never see him presented as a warrior skillful or not. So perhaps in his love of knightly pageantry Renly was drawn towards the idea of a magical knight rather than one who relied purely on steel and skill.

The crystal in the pommel of longswords is quite interesting. We have seen already instances of gemstones in pommels: Stannis' sword has a ruby, as does Lyn Corbray's. Stannis' ruby is probably magical, and is possibly what makes Stannis' sword magical. I suspect the ruby gives Melisandre control over Stannis. By analogy, the crystal might provide the sword magical properties and force the Warrior's Son to be a faithful servant of the Church.

I'd forgotten about Lady Forlorn. With the amount of zeal spilling about I'm not sure the High Septon would need any warrior coercion, ...unless perhap he were to issue an impious command (in secret of course).

5. It could be that these crystals interfere with magic, maybe they can dispel a glamour.

I was wondering about the idea of colour. All the allegedly magical gems are brightly coloured. Except the moonstone which can vary in colour but is not as bright but is not clear. If red rubies bind one to the power or cause of the Red God... and other colours to a different ...affinity, then perhaps clear crystals clear person/place of such magical binding. A magic block as you suggest. Are there any other instances of clear crystals? In the caves near/below the wall where Ygritte and Jon grow closer?

The qualifier of the Warrior's Sons that puzzles me the most is "demonhunter". We don't know what a demon is in the Seven Kingdoms. There is the demonroad in Essos. There are demons in the seven hells, reputedly.

I recall that the Faith Militants were disbanded under the reign of Jaehaerys. It was the time when Septon Barth was Hand of the King. What danger did the Faith Militant pause to the Targaryens? Is it because the Faith Militant were Dragonslayers? Was Septon Barth named Hand of the King as part of an agreement with the Church?

I presumed that demons would be anything deemed an "abomination". Which includes inconvenient political opponents. Much like the abomination declared on the royal products of incest (though he accept Jaehaerys, a product of incest). Perhaps Tommen will die thus when Aegon declares himself as an alternative in supporting the Faith.

But the allusion to the remnants of Valyria is interesting. Perhaps there is another reason related to this why the Faith was opposed to a Targaryen rule. When the Faith chose to support Aegon I after the High Septon had fasted and prayed for 7 days a prominent reason was to avoid Aegon burning the Starry Sept to the ground, rather than a love of Targaryens. Perhaps the Targaryens brought more than just dragons with them. History remembers the Dragons because they caused visible damage to the land and decimated armies. But we know that the dragons have a presumed biological cousin from Valyria in the form of Firewyrms. So perhaps these daemons of the Targaryens were the "Dragons" slayed to extinction in Westeros. They may have performed a quieter function like the manticore used my Sorrowful Men for its poison. But I'm a touch skeptical of this notion, I think that there is more to the story of the Demonroad.

6. This is interesting, Cersei had a conversation with Qyburn at the end of Feast when she is a captive where this chamion comes up and another with Kevan in aDWD, Kevan thinks they were being listened in on. The Faith has probaly heard the rumors about Qyburn, they know something is up with this guy, whether they have anyway to counter it remains to be seen. I don't think the Faiths champion losing hurts them. The important thing is that they have the right to try people and that the crown recognizes it.

Ah, yes, I think it's quite likely something was heard. The High Sparrow had them on his turf.

I'm not sure whether a win or lose plays out better for the Faith. (So maybe a sacrificial knight will be delivered. ...and Robert Strong hunted down later). How will Cersei's victory or defeat affect the decree legalizing the Faith Militant. I suspect even if Cersei is executed the Faith Militant tide has swept to far and will very difficult to reign in now.

But I got the impression that the High Sparrow was determined to follow through with the charges. But maybe he just wanted to break her so that she wouldn't fight back and keep her to keep the edict in place. But the impression is given that Cersei's walk of shame was in fact Kevan's idea (modelled on Tywin's treatment of his late father's paramour).

H. Probaly but I don't see how they get to them or even find them.

I've always suspected that many of the tunnel systems in Westeros are in fact connected, especially those associated in some way with the Children of the Forest. If they are given cause to drop suspicion on a tunnel system they may decide to follow it to its "Source (of Evil)" which is in fact the Weirnet control center North of the Wall or on the Isle of Faces.

[GreenHand]

Were is it mentioned that Lord Hightower practices magic?

Without Lord Redwyne’s fleet,

we lack the ships to come to grips with them.”

“What is Lord Hightower doing?” Sam blurted. “My father always said he was as

wealthy as the Lannisters, and could command thrice as many swords as any of

Highgarden’s other bannermen.”

“More, if he sweeps the cobblestones,” the captain said, “but swords are no good

against the ironmen, unless the men who wield them know how to walk on water.”

“The Hightower must be doing something.”

“To be sure. Lord Leyton’s locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting

books of spells. Might be he’ll raise an army from the deeps. Or not. Baelor’s building

galleys, Gunthor has charge of the harbor, Garth is training new recruits, and

Humfrey’s gone to Lys to hire sellsails. If he can winkle a proper fleet out of his whore

of a sister, we can start paying back the ironmen with some of their own coin.

[bemused]

Sounds like Lord Leyton could use Lord Celtigar's Kraken Horn..;)

I wonder just how "mad" Melora Hightower is ?

If the Hightowers have traditionally been patrons of the Faith , I think the resolution of the charges against Leyton's neice ( ? ) Margaery would be quite important to them , first and foremost. But even if she's absolved of guilt , I can't think the Faith's treatment of her will be forgotten too easily.

The 'demonhunter " bit makes me a little nervous ... doesn't it conjure up echoes of the witch hunts in Europe ? And of course , the High Septon's interrogations already smack a bit too much of the Spanish Inquisition , for me. The Faith is loosely based on Catholicism..and I suspect "demons" might too often turn out to be other gods..and their worshippers , the possessed ,in need of excorcism...there's nothing like hard times to bring out religious extremism.

Somewhere , ( I can't hunt for it right now ) it's mentioned that crystals are a symbol of the Faith because they break light (representing the one god ) into rainbows ( the 7 aspects )

Also , since House Hightower is also patron of the Citadel , and considering the way the "Grey Sheep " have gone , things could get quite complicated.

[Bran Vras]

Since this thread is devoted to the resurgence of the armed branch of the Church of the Seven, and the powers that can be behind it, I'd like to mention a little detail that has intrigued me. In Stannis army, there is a particularly devout lord, Lord Sunglass, with the seven pointed star on the shield. Lord Sunglass deserted Stannis' camp after Melisandre has burnt his brother, and sailed to Volantis (Davos, ASoS).

It's a remarkable sign of devotion to put the sign of the Seven on a shield. Why would such a strong believer sail to Volantis, where the Faith of the Seven is unknown? Could it be a hint that some power in Volantis has concluded has an alliance with the Church and is encouraging its resurgence?

There are other possible interpretations, I just wanted to share this one in case someone can make another connection.

[jarl the climber]

Actually, regarding Renly, he was a mediocre knight in the books. He participated in the hands tourney where he was defeated by the Hound. Stannis said that he rode in tourneys and lost to better men. His armor was very stylish though.

Mel said that glamours were made out of light and shadow, the effect the crystals have on light might disrupt or detect them.

My theory about the Faith Militant is that Thoros and his lot have gained a certian reputation for doing what they can to protect the peasants and have had some sucsess in winning converts. However, many people even though they might admire Thoros, are disturbed by his foriegn religion and wonder why their gods and their Faith aren't protecting them. In many ways, as far as the Poor Fellows go, they are trying to emulate what Thoros is doing.

The Warrior Sons are different. The militirazation of the Faith started from the bottom up, peasants and hedge knights. I see them as maybe being better at talking about fighting dragons or demons then actually having any skill at it. We could argue they are against wargs or skinchangers but they might see some manifestations of this as coming from the 7. Like the Stark dire wolfs, 6 pups plus a Mother 7 wolves.

They might even see Stoneheart as being sent by the 7, Beric was raised 6 times then he raised Stoneheart, which is 7 ressurections. They might actually try to co-opt some of these miracles for the Faith.

The original Warrior Sons operated during the time of the dragons, so they might have had some knowlege of magic and had some skill in using it. I think it is likely that the one or two Hightowers might join to give them some political control over them and they do dabble in magic but it might take a while for them to become proficient at the socery and demonhunting thing.

[DragonSpawn]

Maybe this is the right place for this question - maybe not... but am i missing something...?

Septon Chayle

- He was in Winterfell and when Theon took over he was warned he would end up dead by Bran. Apparently he was thrown in a Well... or at least that's what Wiki says...

Jojen Reed foresaw the death of Chayle in his green dreams. When Bran tells Chayle of his nearing death, Chayle holds to his faith.^[3] After Winterfell was taken by the ironborn, he is thrown in a well to honor the Drowned God.

...and i didn't think any different up until i read this in DwD:

It's a Jon chapter where Alys Karstark and the Magnar are being wed by Melisandre - who is a blatant fire-demon!

Jon notes that many attended as a matter of duty, but he notes that some of the others did not attend the wedding to make a point about how they feel about Melisandre and her Red God.

Then Jon makes this comment: "Septon Chayle had emerged briefly from the sept, fingering the 7 sided crystal that hung about his neck, only to retreat inside again once the prayers began"

... so have i missed something important - when did he end up at the Wall? and is the Crystal he was fingering like a Palantir from LotR's? Was he showing the high-septon a target? and if he is showing them targets - shouldn't he be one of them as un-Chayle?

[darrylzero]

Some very interesting ideas here, though much of it sounds a little higher magic than feels right to me. Still, in a world that has:

1) Magic

2) Religion

3) No proof that any particular deity exists

It makes sense that religious practices would reflect the workings of magic -- religion is always about trying to explain things that don't make sense, right? (Along with establishing social/moral codes to govern society). What makes less sense than magic? Magical resurrection would clearly spawn religious interpretations (and this is how I imagine the faith of R'hllor got started as well).

It will be interesting to see if the faith of the seven ritualized magical practice in the same way.

[GreenHand]

I see this thread is moving several different directions. That's good. Let's try to move with all of them.

Since this thread is devoted to the resurgence of the armed branch of the Church of the Seven, and the powers that can be behind it, I'd like to mention a little detail that has intrigued me. In Stannis army, there is a particularly devout lord, Lord Sunglass, with the seven pointed star on the shield. Lord Sunglass deserted Stannis' camp after Melisandre has burnt his brother, and sailed to Volantis (Davos, ASoS).

It's a remarkable sign of devotion to put the sign of the Seven on a shield. Why would such a strong believer sail to Volantis, where the Faith of the Seven is unknown? Could it be a hint that some power in Volantis has concluded has an alliance with the Church and is encouraging its resurgence?

There are other possible interpretations, I just wanted to share this one in case someone can make another connection.

That is interesting. We know that there is a very strong (pro-Dany as it were) following of R'hollor in Volantis, and more importantly a Red Religion there with alot of centralized organization. Perhaps Lord Sunglass sought to investigate Melisandre, her Faith, her brethren, her origins and her agenda. Perhaps he saw in Melisandre a bigger threat to Sanity and piety and the Political order from the Red Faith, and so fought back at the "source". We on forum are ourselves interested to learn what the true relationship is between Wildcard Melisandre and her "Mothership" in Essos.

I definitely think it is in scope of this thread and worth doing to consider the activities and hints of overtly pro-Seven pious characters. There may be more to they "piety" than religious observance.

For example I have my eye very fixed on Ser Bonifer with his holy 100 (100 have joined the Warrior's Sons so far we told). He was a famed Tourney Knight who left the circuit declaring it an "empty vanity" (I think there is more to his story than meets the eye). We also know that he has a history with the Targaryens, Rhaelle in particular I think. This plants strong military, political and religious spurs into his past. And he is at Harrenhal (with its "curse") near a mystery site Gargantuan-importance to the Old Gods of the North (Isle of Faces). What will his role be in the rising fortunes of the Faith Militant?

[GreenHand]

ON MAGIC FOR THE FAITH OF THE SEVEN:

2. It says in the index of AFFC that the Hightowers welcomed the Andals and adopted their religion and ways.

Maybe like the new comer First Men accepting the Religion of the Children of the Forest, perhaps the magick-studying Hightowers (through the Citadel with Valyrian scrolls and magickcraft acknoledged by a Maester chain link of Valyrian steel) also influenced the practices of the Faith of the Seven in Oldtown (slowly by diffusion over thousands of years).

3. I don't think the Faith will have great sucsess with magic because they won't condone bloodmagic.

The Warrior Sons are different. The militirazation of the Faith started from the bottom up, peasants and hedge knights. I see them as maybe being better at talking about fighting dragons or demons then actually having any skill at it. We could argue they are against wargs or skinchangers but they might see some manifestations of this as coming from the 7. Like the Stark dire wolfs, 6 pups plus a Mother 7 wolves.

They might even see Stoneheart as being sent by the 7, Beric was raised 6 times then he raised Stoneheart, which is 7 ressurections. They might actually try to co-opt some of these miracles for the Faith.

The original Warrior Sons operated during the time of the dragons, so they might have had some knowlege of magic and had some skill in using it. I think it is likely that the one or two Hightowers might join to give them some political control over them and they do dabble in magic but it might take a while for them to become proficient at the socery and demonhunting thing.

Some very interesting ideas here, though much of it sounds a little higher magic than feels right to me.

...

It makes sense that religious practices would reflect the workings of magic -- religion is always about trying to explain things that don't make sense, right?

...

It will be interesting to see if the faith of the seven ritualized magical practice in the same way.

I agree with you all for the most. I don't think the Faith of the Seven (i.e. the practical but zealous High Sparrow) would ever directly condone (blood) magick (which may be tied to another religion or heresies). But they are very much behind the idea of miracles and tapping into the "holiness" of the Seven. So any magick (miracles are "textbook" magic in this world) will be packaged as such. This is easier to do if your magick derived from an object/relic which one can.

I personally suspect that the Warriors Sons will stumble onto some magick by emulating the rituals of the historical brethren (just like Thoros unwittingly raising Beric by performing a "symbolic", traditional R'hollor funeral rite).

Nonetheless, I also agree with Jarl the Climber in thinking that the Faith may at least try to co-opt magic from other traditions. But learning such skills may take time and a teacher (especially hard if you're turning a blind eye or lied to about he origins of the practices). Deciding what's heresy is a murky, area full of greys.

[GreenHand]

Magical Objects:

I'm not sure if this should have it's own thread, but... Can anyone point to objects in the Story that seem to have something strange happen around it...?

My 1st thought: was the Iron Throne (not a relic of the Faith per se, but exploitable by the Faith, and some/one/many of those swords its constructed from may have belonged to Warrior's Sons). It's pure blood magick cutting kings and so touching their potent kingsblood. And Fire Magick, forged in the dragonflame of Balerion himself. We have heard that some Kings were cut more than others. Did it perhaps have something to do with the development of Madness in Aerys who was said to frequently be cut by it. Was it part of the reason Aerys remained in the Red Keep? Any strange events?

[Bran Vras]

Several classes of objects are suspect of being magical, on the top of my head:

gemstones (ruby, moonstones, amethyst certainly), spices (cloves), valyrian weapons, armour (Rhaegar, Loras), horns, silk (Mance Rayder's cloak, Aegon's cloak), glyphs and runes (Dany is given a torc with a Valyrian glyph for her marriage with Drogo), weirwood doors.

I have never considered the Iron throne itself. I don't see yet any specific object of a magical nature (magical=changing the ordinary laws of physics or psychology), but there are magical places: the Bridge of Dreams, the Wall, Harrenhal, the House of the Undying, Qarth itself, perhaps.

[Dornish Bannerman]

I like the Trial by Combat idea, but these must be very well kept secrets. You know for not letting it be known that the Faith has super armor or weapons that can kill the undead? They should ship some to the Wall.