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GreenHand

Warrior's Sons: Crystals, Knight-Assassins and a Trial by Magic

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I'd also throw out the driftwood cudgels that Drowned Men are given when they are inducted into the order. There are also a number of magical horns that are floating around most notably the dragon horn.

I've never even really considered that there was any signifigance in Sunglass going to Volantis. I guess he could be up to something. The red temple in Myr is who sent Thoros to Westeros, they basically did that because he could speak the language, he was a poor excuse for a preist in his own opinion. Mel came from Asshai. I suppose the red temple in Sunspear might have a connection to Volantis based on the Dornish-Rhoynish connection.

Obviously obsidian has some magical properties and these properties might change depending on the color. The armor that Bronze Yohn wears is supposed to be engraved with runes and is said to protect him from harm. Silver is referenced as maybe having magical properties. I guess it also a question of using the proper material against the right opponent, obsidian is effective against the White Walkers but not the wights.

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I think the High Septon will clear the way for Aegon and his army and then they will go north to fight Stannis and his Red Woman. This would be the time to break out any magic or magical objects they may have but I don't think things will work out for them. They may think they have magic but it doesn't work/ do what they expect.

It because they objected to the Targaryeans practice of incest, Maegor the cruel started the war with them and Jaehaerys made the peace. In AFFC in the index under house Hightower they give a breif history of the house before they list the living members.

The 'demonhunter " bit makes me a little nervous ... doesn't it conjure up echoes of the witch hunts in Europe ? And of course , the High Septon's interrogations already smack a bit too much of the Spanish Inquisition , for me. The Faith is loosely based on Catholicism..and I suspect "demons" might too often turn out to be other gods..and their worshippers , the possessed ,in need of excorcism...there's nothing like hard times to bring out religious extremism.

I agree.

While the Warrior's Sons and their zeal for abominations may add a new angle to the supernatural arcs, I think there will definitely be an expedient political "witchhunt" to remove political opponents. We see how the High Sparrow laments the Faith's loss of power to Judge. He has his eye on that kind of integration into the system of governance.

As you say, a big part of the Faith Militant's uprising against Aenys and Maegor was because they were born of incest (the psychotic proclivities of Maegor as Hand & King probably didn't help). Though they were able to forgive Jaehaerys the Concilliator for this unfortunate condition. So how then will they approach Tommen and his sister...?

Aegon provide a good alternative for the High Sparrow & the Faith

The High Sparrow tells Cersei how there is no-one else to uphold the Faith of the Seven. So perhaps he is making do with the best of a set of bad options. But now that Aegon "Young Griff" has arrived all that changes. Aegon is well educated in the Faith, has Septon in his inner circle/close counsel (Lemore, even though she is soiled) and declares his support for the Faith. Haldon and Connington will take note of the swelling tide of religious power in the Realm and maneuver accordingly. So he doesn't really need Tommen. He has not yet given Tommen his blessing. And perhaps he never intended to. He strung Cersei along a good while before he actually arrested her.

High Septon discovering Tommen is born of incest

But why would he choose to believe Tommen is born of incest? We saw one trial open the door to another already. When kettleback confessed and Margaery stood accused this simple lead the High Sparrow to investigate further until he discovered Cersei's shenanigans with Kettleback et al. Now that Cersei appears to be guilty of fornication and various deceptions, Stannis' well-publicized allegations of Cersei's incestuous & treasonous adultery seem more plausible. The High Sparrow is a determined man with influence and resources. If both Ned Stark and Jon Arryn figured it out without anything pointing the way I am sure the High Sparrow will come to the same conclusion in less time.

Lannister-Tyrell confronting the Faith

The Lannister-Tyrell alliance may starts to interfere or exclude the Faith in the months to come. I'm sure they've had about enough of the Faith at this point. And they have seen now how dangerous the Faith can be. Margaery escape only just, if at all. The Faith is also increasingly interfering with secular policy and the Royal incomes (whores and their tax). If the Lannister-Tyrell alliance obstructs the Faith at all I think the High Sparrow will be sufficiently motivated to support Aegon's claim whether openly, secretly or implicitly (non-support of Tommen).

If the High Sparrow concludes (in or outside of a public hearing) that Tommen is the product of Cersei's incest he may not stop at supporting Aegon but actually send Warrior's Sons to hunt down and assassinate/capture Tommen (& Myrcella). The High Sparrow with his Warrior's Sons are very dangerous to Tommen personally while Tommen sits the Iron Throne.

Exception: Regency by the Faith

The only way I see the above events not happening is if the Faith decides that it will seize upon the opportunity to assume Tommen's regency themselves, thereby ruling in his name. I think Cersei will still fight for the Regency but, with Cersei "discredited" and other candidates dead I think the Faith may succeed in bullying their way into this position. They may still kill/depose Tommen later as an abomination.

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One little note, Greenhand, about your suggestion that Aegon could be recognized by the Faith as the rightful King.

We don't know who Young Griff really is. But he seems to excel at being what other people expect of him. He impersonates perfectly a fine heir of Rhaegar, and he succeeds extraordinarily in convincing the Golden Company to follow him to Westeros (and probably to appear to be a Blackfyre to them). I tend to believe he will have no problem displaying his devotion to the Church of the Seven to gain the support of the High Septon.

To return briefly to the subject of Lord Sunglass. A reasonable hypothesis is that he joined the Golden Company, probably under a false name.

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One more thing, perhaps of interest for this thread, I just mentioned in the Rhaegar thread that the red religion probably came from Valyria and there are indications that the Targaryens were followers of R'hllor. So when Jaehaerys made his agreement with the Church, he might have agreed as well to abandon the faith of R'hllor in favour of the Seven.

Another point, about the "dragonslayer" reputation of the Warrior's Sons. Tyrion mentions a knight who slayed a dragon (Tyrion, ADwD)

“No doubt. Well, Hugor Hill, answer me this. How did Serwyn of the Mirror Shield slay the dragon Urrax?”

“He approached behind his shield. Urrax saw only his own reflection until Serwyn had plunged his spear through his eye.”

Haldon was unimpressed. “Even Duck knows that tale. Can you tell me the name of the knight who tried the same ploy with Vhagar during the Dance of the Dragons?”

Tyrion grinned. “Ser Byron Swann. He was roasted for his trouble ... only the dragon was Syrax, not Vhagar.”

“I fear that you’re mistaken. In The Dance of the Dragons, A True Telling, Maester Munkun writes—”

“—that it was Vhagar. Grand Maester Munkun errs. Ser Byron’s squire saw his master die, and wrote his daughter of the manner of it. His account says it was Syrax, Rhaenyra’s she-dragon, which makes more sense than Munken’s version. Swann was the son of a marcher lord, and Storm’s End was for Aegon. Vhagar was ridden by Prince Aemond, Aegon’s brother. Why should Swann want to slay her?”

The second story happens during the Dance of the Dragons, that is after Jaehaerys' reign, that is after the disbanding of the Warrior's Sons. However, Byron attempted to copy Serwyn's trick. So Serwyn's story happened before the Dance of the Dragons, that is early during the Targaryen era. It's possible that Serwyn was a Warrior's Son, and deserving of name "dragonslayer". Just, for the sake of completeness, Serwyn is again mentioned in ADwD, by Dany

When Dany told him how Serwyn of the Mirror Shield was haunted by the ghosts of all the knights he’d killed, Daario only laughed.

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On House Sunglass:

To return briefly to the subject of Lord Sunglass. A reasonable hypothesis is that he joined the Golden Company, probably under a false name.

Interesting... yes, that could be. Though for any high lord to abandon his seat to "disappear" and join a rough-riding band of mercenaries seems odd at best. If this is the case, I seriously doubt he would do it merely to hide, but rather with a very specific purpose in mind...

Political/Religious alignments

I will say that if House Sunglass is as pious as they seem, they may remain unwilling to support a child born of incest, namely Tommen/Jeoffrey Baratheon (Believing the testimony of Stannis) while still taking issue with Stannis' agressive promotion/affiliation with R'hollor. This leaves them in an awkward position without allies. So this lord flees Westeros until the dust settles and keeps his head (his brother has just been burned alive in the uncompromising madness). Or seeking a third option for a King to follow.

I'm not sure whether or not his travels to Volantis and/or possible joining of the Golden Company were initially for this purpose (or just for safety). Though the Golden Company High Command has known all along, Aegon only declared himself to the company long after Lord Sunglass fled to Volantis. Either way, supporting Aegon is the move that makes the most sense for House Sunglass. Who else if not Stannis and not Cersei's children?

But if Lord Sunglass wished to support Aegon, would he not be better able to do so using his position as Lord of Sweetport Sound? He could have assumed a low profile under the radar within Tommen's peace. But perhaps that was too unpalatable for him... or some other reason. If he is in the Golden Company he may reveal himself as an unexpected ally at some critical moment (bringing the port and swords of Sweetport Sound with him). :)

Is anyone familiar with the membership of the Golden Company? Is there any of the GC mentioned in passing that might be Lord Sunglass? I vague recall some rank-and-file member on whom Connington's thoughts lingered awhile...

----

Two points I have not yet looked into in depth but are mentioned in the Wiki:

1] Moonstones

At the meeting of Stannis' bannermen (ACOK prologue) the now late Lord Gunce Sunglass was wearing three moonstones, on his throat & wrist & finger. That is a lot of moonstone not to be of some symbolic or ritual importance. I also cannot think of many instances of jewelery worn on the wrist in ASOIAF.

But more importantly it was a moonstone worn by Ser Maynard Plumm, who many believe to be the glamoured Bloodraven in disguise. Bloodraven was a sorcerer of the Old Gods but perhaps also through his Targaryen ancestry and through is Essos-mothered sister&lover Shiera Seastar (also a sorcerer). Though Gunce Sunglass is firmly for the Seven...

If moonstones are used for glamours then maybe that was NOT Gunce Sunglass and the real Gunce Sunglass to be his "unnamed brother" escaped to Volantis. Or this is a hint that the Sunglass scions can glamour themselves and this would allow the new Lord Sunglass to join the Golden Company thoroughly incognito under glamour.

So Bran Vras you may have provided us with a glimpse of sorcery associated with the Faithful of the Seven!

2] Volantis and Glass

There is a bracketed comment on the Wiki (article:'House Sunglass') that suggests that Volantis is renowned for their glass (production or trade?). I can't say I'm familiar with this reputation (I thought Myr was the one famed for making glass and lenses) and you can decide if this has sound basis. This same Wiki comment suggests that through the mutual connection with glass House Sunglass may have a past/historic association with Volantis, and that this is part of the reason the new Lord Sunglass fled to Volantis.

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Volantene glass is mentioned in ASoS, as part of the treasures of Claw Island (Davos, ASoS).

Claw Isle was but lightly garrisoned, its castle reputedly stuffed with Myrish carpets, Volantene glass, gold and silver plate, jeweled cups, magnificent hawks, an axe of Valyrian steel, a horn that could summon monsters from the deep, chests of rubies, and more wines than a man could drink in a hundred years.

Apparently, it's the only occurrence of such glass.

We know so little about House Sunglass. I don't know if Sunglass is a particular type of glass. I wonder if House Sunglass is not comparable to House Spicer in the Westerlands: merchants who got rich trading spices and adopted their name accordingly. So perhaps the Sunglass imported once glass from Volantis and acquired their household name in the same manner than the Spicers. That might explain the exile in Volantis, given that the Sunglasses had lost hope to retain their seat after the Battle of Blackwater Bay.

About the Golden Company, it seems to me that this company would try to attract all honourable Westerosi lords in exile, so why not Lord Sunglass? When Griff comes to see the Golden Company in ADwD, he says that every member calls himself what he wants. So there are surely people to recognize among the sellsword that we see.

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More on Moonstones and the Faith

In my last post I mentioned the preponderance of moonstones on our most pious Lord Guncer Sunglass and the moonstone of Ser Maynard Plumm mostly likely maintaining a glamour by known sorceror Bloodraven.

There are 11 instances of moonstones in the ASOIAF novels divided between 5 people. These include Lysa Tully, her favourite minstrel Marillion and Sansa. The moon is on the Arryn coat-of-arms and Sansa wore them while awaiting her moonblood (engaged but not yet married) in her wedding dress? So that makes a certain symbolic sense. The favoured, Hermaphrodite slave of Yunkish Yezzan zo Qaggaz wears moonstones in his/her dress (the mark of the unnatural?).

1] Real-world connotations of Moon and Moonstone

I am not sure of the real-world connotations of moonstones. I know that energy-healing traditions in the real world value certain crystals and gemstones. In the realworld the moon as a symbol is often associated with magick in general and the unconscious. Wikipedia says that it is associated with unconscious habits, rhythms, memories and moods, and in the Greek tradition, with Diana the Huntress. Certain traditions in Wicca, which places emphasis on the importance of "magick" however you understand the term in the natural order and personal development, claim affinity with Diana or equivalent patron.

2] Value of Moonstone

Unless I'm mistaken, moonstones are not particularly beautiful. They are layered and interesting but not brightly coloured (brownish, pale colour). Is this accurate? However in ASOIAF moonstones DO appear to be expensive and thus denotes a certain status and lustre.

She dressed him like a lord, gave him gold rings and a

moonstone belt.”

See for point [4] for the importance of this.

-- The other 2 instances of moonstones in the ASOIAF novels, but these each have connotations with Magick AND the Faith of the Seven [3-4]:

3] The Valyrian steel sword 'Nightfall'

a)

The ancestral sword of the powerful House Harlaw in the Iron Isles is 'Nightfall'. In the pommel of Nightfall is a... Moonstone. Valyrian swords are already crafted with spells and dragonfire and presumably imbued with magick. But perhaps the sword has magical significance beyond that of other Valyrian blades.

b )

There is of course the striking parallel with the crystal-embedded pommels of the Warrior's Sons. Could it have once belonged to a distinguished Warrior's Son who was allowed a "personalized" weapon. Like the Mance with red in his Cloak, or when Jaime is allowed to wear his Lannister armour.

c)

The current bearer of Nightfall is "Ser" Harras Harlaw, the newly appointed "Knight of Greygardens" and lord of a recaptured Greyshield keep by Euron. In the battle for Grimston castle on Greyshield island (belonging then to House Grimm) Harras defeats 7 men in single combat. The (presumably castellan) Septon declares this a sign from the Seven (expedient interpretation towards self-preservation some may say) and surrenders the castle. In other words, Harras wins Grimston keep by (sort of) fulfilling a ritual/symbolism peculiar to the Faith of the Seven. Is this a hint from GRRM?

d)

In a very oblique and speculative vein: Magick is a skill often associated with those of great learning. It is a introspective, non-warrior, mental pursuit. Cosider magick by Maesters and Clergy and Sam, and The Hightower duo. Is there any reason to suspect that the deeply learned Rodrick 'The Reader' Harlaw, current head of House Harlaw, knows something more about his ancestral sword and magick in general...?

4] Statues of the Seven

She found the High Septon waiting for her in a small seven-sided audience chamber.

The room was sparse and plain, with bare stone walls, a rough-hewn table, three

chairs, and a prayer bench. The faces of the Seven had been carved into the walls.

Cersei thought the carvings crude and ugly, but there was a certain power to them,

especially about the eyes, orbs of onyx, malachite, and yellow moonstone that

somehow made the faces come alive.

...

Cersei could feel the eyes of the Seven staring at her, eyes of jade and malachite and

onyx, and a sudden shiver of fear went through her, cold as ice.

Here we see moonstones directly associated with the Seven. Their holy presence on Earth, the statues of a "Sept", use moonstones.

a)

Even though the dramatic tension of the situation probably plays a role, Cersei's description of the moonstone-bearing statues sounds suspiciously like the effects of a minor glamour. There is an other-worldly quality to these particular statues that are "watching" her.

b )

It is well worth noting that while the High Sparrow has stripped the Great Sept of extravagances and sold off their most expensive treasures he has chosen to keep these statues where simpler statues would have sufficed (symbolically speaking). Although the statues are said to be crude they are made of notably expensive jewels. In the quote of 2 above regarding the moonstone belt Marillion receives from Lysa Tully-Arryn it would seem that moonstones are an expensive and lordly gift.

Given (a) and (b ) I think it likely that these moonstone-bearing statues are slightly magical in nature and hold significance for the High Sparrow and his vision for the future of the Faith in Westeros. Is this an example of magick in the hands of and from the Faith of the Seven?

+-------

On another tangent: Since we're talking about moonstones in the context of magic and religion, is there any connection to the Moonsingers of Braavos and old Valyria (and its Doom)...?

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On the legendary Ser Serwyn as a Warrior's Son:

Another point, about the "dragonslayer" reputation of the Warrior's Sons. Tyrion mentions a knight who slayed a dragon (Tyrion, ADwD)

The second story happens during the Dance of the Dragons, that is after Jaehaerys' reign, that is after the disbanding of the Warrior's Sons. However, Byron attempted to copy Serwyn's trick. So Serwyn's story happened before the Dance of the Dragons, that is early during the Targaryen era. It's possible that Serwyn was a Warrior's Son, and deserving of name "dragonslayer". Just, for the sake of completeness, Serwyn is again mentioned in ADwD, by Dany

Ah, lovely! A specific historical figure from the Order of Warrior's Sons. I agree that it is likely he was a Warrior's Son or former Warrior's Son (or the son of a Warrior's Son taught by his father). It's hard to place him in the timeline - we don't know where in the Targaryen lineage princess Daeryssa who Ser Serwyn saved.

1] Kingsguard Serwyn as a Dragonslayer

But he was of the Kingsguard...so why would he wish to slay the dragon Urrax? Maybe that incident won him his place on the Kingsguard. The Targaryens thought that they would rather have him on their side than against them. And he knew the arts of dragonslaying (much like, you need a thief to catch a thief - thus you need a dragonslayer to protect against dragonslayers).

2] Serwyn's smallfolk popularity

Or perhaps Urrax was slain during the the grassroots "popular" (more like directed by the popular-supported Faith) uprising of the Faith Militant when Aenys then Maegor Targeryen ruled. We also learn from the songs/stories that Serwyn was beloved by the common folk (as opposed to elite and distant high on Aegon's Hill). So perhaps this is an indication that he became famous during the Faith Militant uprising, helping the common folk, before he joined the Kingsguard.

3] Politics of Serwyn's Kingsguard appointment

In fact, the appointment of a seeming Warrior's Son to the Kingsguard sounds like just the sort of diplomatic/political move that would be part of the peace negotiated and sealed by Jaehaerys the Conciliator.The Warrior's Sons would have just been disbanded. The capitulating High Septon would like assurances and insurances behind Jaehaerys' pledge to defend the Faith himself so the High Septon insists that suitable pious and true hearted warriors be appointed to the Kingsguard (who better than the golden boy of the former Warrior's Sons).

We see a modern parallel for this sort of semi-political appointment to the Kingsguard in the appointment of Loras Tyrell's as part of the Tyrell-Lannister Alliance pact.

4] Options for ex-Warrior's Sons?

Also where are those sworn to the Warrior's Sons for life now expected to go after the order is disbanded? The most logical place is to serve those now charged with defending the faith.

They may have simply served as ordinary knights but the religious zeal that drove them to join the Order would not evaporate and would need to find expression in some significant way.

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Some time ago, I thought that rubies were the only magical stones. Then noted the Bloodraven episode in the Mystery Knight. I now think that many gemstones of all types are suspect (the sapphires of Loras Tyrell and Tobho Mott, several amethysts). The rubies seem close to fire and moonstone seem closer to the moon and don't mix with rubies. There is a discussion about this in the thread "Howl at the Moon".

I wonder about Longclaw. In ACoK, it is described as follows.

The hilt had been fashioned new for him, adorned with a wolf’s-head pommel in pale stone, but the blade itself was Valyrian steel, old and light and deadly sharp.

There are other instances of gemstones in the pommels of weapons throughout the books.

About Serwyn, I missed a few references, in particular that Serwyn was a Kingsguard. So, that precludes any simple conclusion that he was a warrior's son as you note. The solutions you propose are reasonable. A character to watch! The reign and Jaehaerys and the agreement with the faith appears to be a fascinating period.

Here are the few more references to Serwyn I missed upthread. First there is the pantheon of the most famous Kingsguard (Bran, AGoT)

Bran was going to be a knight himself someday, one of the Kingsguard. Old Nan said they were the finest swords in all the realm. There were only seven of them, and they wore white armor and had no wives or children, but lived only to serve the king. Bran knew all the stories. Their names were like music to him. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. Ser Ryam Redwyne. Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. The twins Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk, who had died on one another’s swords hundreds of years ago, when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Barristan the Bold.

So that we know that Serwyn belongs to the Hall of Fame of the Kingsguard. Sansa (AGoT), somewhat less flatteringly, compares Joffrey to Serwyn

He was so gallant, she thought. The way he had rescued her from Ser Ilyn and the Hound, why, it was almost like the songs, like the time Serwyn of the Mirror Shield saved the Princess Daeryssa from the giants, or Prince Aemon the Dragonknight championing Queen Naerys’s honor against evil Ser Morgil’s slanders.

Now Tyrion (ACoK)

“Ser Barristan was the Lord Commander of Robert Baratheon’s Kingsguard,” Tyrion reminded her pointedly. “He and Jaime are the only survivors of Aerys Targaryen’s seven. The smallfolk talk of him in the same way they talk of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight.

and Littlefinger (Sansa, ASoS)

But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell’s army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight.

I think that's all this time.

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Just wanted to add on the subject of crystals and the Faith....didn't the High Septon have a crown made of crystal? And if I recall correctly, I think it was stated in AFFC that it was sold....(?)

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Love the thread!

On magical artifacts of the seven has anyone mentioned the sword the Just Maid? AFFC Brienne...

"Ser Galladon was a champion of such valor that the Maiden herself lost her heart to him. She gave him an enchanted sword as a token of her love. The Just Maid, it was called. No common sword could check her, nor any shield withstand her kiss. Ser Galladon bore the Just Maid proudly, but only thrice did he unsheathe her. He would not use the Maid against a mortal man, for she was so potent as to make any fight unfair."

He is a knight so this happens in Westeros and he would not use the sword on a mortal man, that could mean he used it on an undead or some such else why say man at all. This could be bad news for UnGregor.

ETA

"Perhaps," she allowed, "but Ser Galladon was no fool. Against a foe eight feet tall mounted on an aurochs, he might well have unsheathed the Just Maid. He used her once to slay a dragon, they say."

I found more ^ and this might have happened not so long ago, during the time of Targaryen dragons in Westeros, so the Faith could still have the sword. Interesting that he slayed a dragon with just a sword. ( on another note Brienne had a brother named Galladon that died )

Also Tyrion's High Septon had a weirwood staff ( I can't remember his name )

The High Septon walked slowly, leaning on a weirwood staff topped by a crystal orb. Seven of the Most Devout attended him, shimmering in cloth-of-silver. Tommen wore cloth-of-gold beneath his sable mantle, the queen an old gown of black velvet lined with ermine.

I think all of the High Septons use this weirwood staff but I'm not sure.

( edited again for clarity )

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Or perhaps the crystal in the swords is just for decorative purposes (like those in the high septons crown).

And Renly's rainbow guard was a literary symbol for homosexuality.

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Renly's rainbow guard had absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality at all. Renly was honoring the faith with his rainbow guard because it is their colors. The Warrior Sons have rainbow colored robes, betls and it's on their sheilds, the septon's belts and the flags of the seven are also rainbow colored, and they even have a rainbow pool at the Sept of Baelor. There is more but I think that should be sufficent.

****************************

The High Septon's robes and the Most Devout's robes are encrusted with crystals and all members of the faith are buried with a crystal, even those buried on the side of the road. I seem to remember when Dany drank shade of the evening it was from a crystal glass. Here is a play on words with crystal and magic from Sansa

Sansa had favored her mother's gods over her father's. She loved the statues, the pictures in leaded

glass, the fragrance of burning incense, the septons with their robes and crystals, the magical play of the rainbows over altars inlaid with mother-of-pearl and onyx and lapis lazuli. Yet she could not deny that the godswood had a certain power too. Especially by night. Help me, she prayed, send me a friend, a true knight to champion me . . .

It seems the crystal reflecting light is of import seen in weddings, funerals, trial by combat and in the sept in general. Could using light have some magical meaning? I found a statement from Lysa that I thought could be interesting...

Lysa Arryn smiled at her sister. "The sky cells always break them. The gods can see them there, and

there is no darkness to hide in."

Just something else, unrelated, that's interesting from Catelyn

Catelyn went to the sept and lit a candle to the Father Above for her own father's sake, a second to the Crone, who had let the first raven into the world when she peered through the door of death, and a third to the Mother, for Lysa and all the children they had both lost.

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Is there any indication that Renly had a fascination with magick the way Sam Tarly or Bran Stark did?

It's not much but this is the only thing I remember about Renly in this way, but there could be more, Cressen's thoughts...

Even as a boy, Renly had loved bright colors and rich fabrics, and he had loved his games as well. "Look at me!" he would shout as he ran laughing through the halls of Storm's End. "Look at me, I'm a dragon," or "Look at me, I'm a wizard," or "Look at me, look at me, I'm the rain god."

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Maybe this is the right place for this question - maybe not... but am i missing something...?

Septon Chayle

- He was in Winterfell and when Theon took over he was warned he would end up dead by Bran. Apparently he was thrown in a Well... or at least that's what Wiki says...

...and i didn't think any different up until i read this in DwD:

It's a Jon chapter where Alys Karstark and the Magnar are being wed by Melisandre - who is a blatant fire-demon!

Jon notes that many attended as a matter of duty, but he notes that some of the others did not attend the wedding to make a point about how they feel about Melisandre and her Red God.

Then Jon makes this comment: "Septon Chayle had emerged briefly from the sept, fingering the 7 sided crystal that hung about his neck, only to retreat inside again once the prayers began"

... so have i missed something important - when did he end up at the Wall? and is the Crystal he was fingering like a Palantir from LotR's? Was he showing the high-septon a target? and if he is showing them targets - shouldn't he be one of them as un-Chayle?

Are they the same Septon Chayle? I didn't catch this, did you get your answer? I was watching the thread for someone to answer you but, nada. I did a search for Septon Chayle and came up with nada too. If this is true, maybe the Warrior's Sons are at the Wall? I want to reread this part.

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Maybe this is the right place for this question - maybe not... but am i missing something...?

Septon Chayle

- He was in Winterfell and when Theon took over he was warned he would end up dead by Bran. Apparently he was thrown in a Well... or at least that's what Wiki says...

...and i didn't think any different up until i read this in DwD:

It's a Jon chapter where Alys Karstark and the Magnar are being wed by Melisandre - who is a blatant fire-demon!

Jon notes that many attended as a matter of duty, but he notes that some of the others did not attend the wedding to make a point about how they feel about Melisandre and her Red God.

Then Jon makes this comment: "Septon Chayle had emerged briefly from the sept, fingering the 7 sided crystal that hung about his neck, only to retreat inside again once the prayers began"

... so have i missed something important - when did he end up at the Wall? and is the Crystal he was fingering like a Palantir from LotR's? Was he showing the high-septon a target? and if he is showing them targets - shouldn't he be one of them as un-Chayle?

Are they the same Septon Chayle? I didn't catch this, did you get your answer? I was watching the thread for someone to answer you but, nada. I did a search for Septon Chayle and came up with nada too. If this is true, maybe the Warrior's Sons are at the Wall? I want to reread this part.

I was pretty sure that the mention of Chayle in ADWD was I typo but I still wanted to check because GRRM can be sneaky at times. I checked for desriptions for both Septon Chayle of Winterfell and Septon Cellador ( sometimes typo of Celladar ) of Castle Black. The only descriptions are that they both wear a silver (?) chain that has a crystal and Chayle is young with Cellador a drunk, but Cellador does have a description that is similar to the probable typo of Chayle in ADWD.

Chayle ADWD ( typo? and should be Cellador maybe? )

Septon Chayle had emerged briefly from the sept, fingering the seven-sided crystal on the thong about his neck, only to retreat inside again once the prayers began.

Cellador ADWD

That answer did not please them. Septon Cellador fingered the crystal that hung about his neck

and said,..

Here is the only time Chayle was mentioned before his death with the crystal for comparison ( or the only one I could find ) AGOT

"Chayle," he said softly. The young man jerked up, blinking, confused, the crystal of his order swinging wildly on its silver chain.

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Thanks Elaena, that clears it up it's probably a typo. I saw it being mentioned twice elsewhere and the conclusion is the same as yours. Septon Chayle ought to be dead and not a new un-X.

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Thanks Elaena, that clears it up it's probably a typo. I saw it being mentioned twice elsewhere and the conclusion is the same as yours. Septon Chayle ought to be dead and not a new un-X.

It might not be a typo. Jon who grew up in Winterfell might be confusing the 2 in his head. Cersei at one point calls Euron Balons son after just being told that he was his brother. I found some others examples of this in the book.

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I shall be that which goes *bump* in the night (to this thread), :D

I was looking through some references to key terms for this thread in the book...

On Wargs & Demons

Upthread we wondered what was meant by "Demons" in the term "Demonhunters" applied to describe the Warrior's Sons of old. Although anything "Evil" in the eyes of the faith might qualify. Though, as pointed out upthread, The Faith of the Seven specifically mentions Demons as existing hell. So perhaps they are able to hunt the unseen enemies (like wargs and greenseers that just from body to body and through the weirnet). The suitable pious Ser Bonifer Hasty tells us of the Wolf problem:

and wolves ruled the weary world from dusk till

dawn. Most of the animals were wary enough to keep their distance, but one of Marbrand’s outriders had his horse run off and killed when he dismounted for a piss.

“No beast would be so bold,” declared Ser Bonifer the Good, of the stern sad face.

These are demons in the skins of wolves, sent to chastise us for our sins.”

Maybe he is right. Our warg Arya had wolf dreams wherein she hunted and feasted on men and horses. Ser Bonifer may be using the term "Demons" loosely here but we have been shown Arya's wolfdreams, so maybe the Warrior's Sons hunted wargs in the past (and future).

---------------

On Armour & Fire

Regarding Cersei's upcoming Trial by Combat where the Faith's champion (probably a Warrior's Son) is to fight an undead(?) Ser Robert Strong:

“This castle has an ill repute,” he warned him, “and one that’s well deserved. It’s said that Harren and his sons still walk the halls by night, afire. Those who look upon them burst into flame.”

“I fear no shade, ser. It is written in The Seven-Pointed Star that spirits, wights, and

revenants cannot harm a pious man, so long as he is armored in his faith.

This is interesting. Other than metaphorically, Is there another way to understand the term "Armoured in his faith"!?? Even if Ser Bonifer means it metaphorically here, perhaps the ancient Andal Holy Book he is quoting actually means it more literally. We know that the Red Religion in Essos has an Azor Ahai prophecy and so was probably affected by the Long Night of the White Walkers so perhaps the Andal Warrior then in Andalos in Essos also dealt with the undead in some way.

For me it recalls to mind the recurring image in Jon Snow's dreams/visions of him fighting Wights ('revenants' known to exist) armoured in Ice. It is tempting to consider these scenes as potential, literal depictions of him fighting a wight attack (though of course Robb Stark's corpse is not North of The Wall). Could these visions be a strong suggestion that there is a way, a kind of armouring, that protects against the undead? Something a ritual of the Faith of Seven might incidentally invoke?

In the above Ser Bonifer quote we also told that legend speaks of bursting into flame upon seeing one of Harren Hoare's ghost sons (admittedly they died by fire). Below Lancel also quotes a line about flame from the Seven-pointed Star (Holy Book of the Seven). I'm not sure it's even vaguely relevant to anything but I include it anyway.

Lancel: “Our lives are candle flames, says The Seven-Pointed Star. Any errant puff of wind

can snuff us out.

Is there any saying or doctrine or ritual of the Faith of the Seven or the Andals of old that might be interpreted in a different way? Come forth good readers, it may shed a shard of light upon the rising tide of the Warrior's Sons.

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Some posts on other threads relevant here...:

Or maybe it's the crystals, perhaps they have protective anti-evil powers and Bonifer's quote from The Seven-pointed Star about being armored in your faith is in relation to having a crystal. The Warrior's Sons bore star-shaped crystals in the pommels of their longswords.

If they refract and split light into seven colours, what will they do to shadows...?

Also, Sam was able to open the Black Gate because he was a sworn brother--he had taken the vows. Maybe holy vows to the seven have some power. Who knows the ancient mysteries of the seven? The biggest authority we've been introduced to is the High Septon in KL. While the new guy is a fundamentalist, I'm not sure that he is terribly steeped in ancient knowledge.

...

Or maybe all a person needs to know is contained in the Seven Pointed Star and just needs some intrepid fellow to rediscover it. Hmmm.

My thoughts exactly! Hmm, perhaps if holy vows are recited at a special place in the Ancient Great 'Starry Sept' in Oldtown. Baelor the Blessed was a special soul in the history of the Faith who also built The Sept of Baelor in King's Landing... but it's hard to know how much of him was greatness and madness each.

Just to add to my previous post, as well as the crystal in the pommel of the longswords of the Warrior's Sons also wear greathelms with a crystal in the crest. The heraldry of the order is a rainbow sword shining bright upon a field of darkness. The High Septon supposedly sold all the old crystal crowns to help feed the poor, yet he seems to have spared no expense when arming his warriors. That seemed a bit odd to me.

Ah! Can anyone confirm this? This detail is news to me. Might this be a real crystal or just an emblom depicting a crystal? If this is true, if these Knights of Faith wear physical crystal on/in their helms as well, then I think that that bolsters the theory that the crystals (also in the sword pommel) serve a defensive purpose.

This is true, The High Sparrow has spared no expense in outfitting the Warrior's Sons despite his lamentations about the suffering of the faithful poor. Perhaps he used the crystal of the crown to fit the swords (&helms?) of his knights with crystal.

Though perhaps once lavish luxuries are cheap in comparison to the unearthly high price of food in King's Landing at the time...

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