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GreenHand

Warrior's Sons: Crystals, Knight-Assassins and a Trial by Magic

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OK, we were looking for a definitive example of magic in the Faith of the Seven. Here is the best I found. It raised an eyebrow for me. And its exactly the kind of discovery of magic we have been talking about: Inadvertent magick by mimicking the Faithful of old (like Thoros when he resurrected Beric).

Lancel is one of our first encounters with a member of the new and fanatical Warrior's Sons. He does exactly this and copies the behaviour of Baelor the Blessed (a peaceful zealot of the Seven) and claims to have gotten results.

“Each night I make my bed beneath a different altar, and the Seven send me visions.”

Baelor the Blessed once had visions too. Especially when he was fasting. “How long has it been since you’ve eaten?”

“My faith is all the nourishment I need.”

“Faith is like porridge. Better with milk and honey.”

I dreamed that you would come. In the dream you knew what I had done.How I’d sinned. You killed me for it.”

“You’re more like to kill yourself with all this fasting. Didn’t Baelor the Blessed fast himself onto a bier?”

“Our lives are candle flames, says The Seven-Pointed Star. Any errant puff of wind

can snuff us out. Death is never far in this world, and seven hells await sinners who do

not repent their sins. Pray with me, Jaime.”

Admittedly he doesn't give us many concrete details to check accuracy. Jaime did not kill Lancel but he does in fact already know about Lancel's crimes. We also know that Jaime has known jealousy and rash acts before. Nonetheless Jaime DID come to Castle Darry as Lancel had seen. This was not an obvious occurrence. In fact it was unexpected: The Maester at Darry conveys this...

“Lord Commander, Darry is honored by this . . . unexpected visit. You must forgive our lack of preparations. We had been given to understand that you were bound for Riverrun.”

“Darry was on my way,” lied Jaime.

It's hard to know what to make of Baelor the Blessed. He seems to have had some of the Targaryen Madness but what of his "Greatness" is true or magical? He was prone to hallucinations ostensibly born of religious zeal. Or were they visions? We know of other Targaryens who had visions that came true in Daeron the Drunk. We are told that he rescued Aemon the Dragonknight from a pit of vipers and was repeatedly bitten but unharmed by the poison (like Melisandre). Even though some say its metaphorical for simply escaping Dorne. Though we also know that the Dornish (or at least Oberyn) use poison milked from snakes. He also, interestingly enough, raised to High Septon a boy of 8 he claimed could perform "miracles" (read magick). Maybe Baelor really did perform or follow some magic in his pursuit of religious purity.

If Baelor (the Befuddled or Blessed) is a case of magic for the Seven, is there any other behaviour/practice of his that the Warrior's Sons might copy with unexpected results?

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Just a thought.

It's interesting how fasting seems to be a significant part of the tradition of the Faith of Seven.

In the above example we see Lancel Lannister and Baelor the Blessed fasting and receiving visions (prophetic or fevre dreams, who knows).

We also see the High Septon during the Conquest of Westeros by the first Aegon Targaryen fasting for wisdom (read visions).

Three hundred years ago, when Aegon the Dragon landed beneath this very hill, the High Septon locked himself within the Starry Sept of Oldtown and prayed for seven days and seven nights, taking no nourishment but bread and water. When he emerged he announced that the Faith would not oppose Aegon and his sisters, for the Crone had lifted up her lamp to show him what lay ahead. If Oldtown took up arms against the Dragon, Oldtown would burn, and the Hightower and the Citadel and the Starry Sept would be cast down and destroyed. Lord Hightower was a godly man. When he heard the prophecy, he kept his strength at home and opened the city gates to Aegon when he came.

We don't know if he saw visions but his predictions are somewhat specific. Perhaps specific enough to suggest he saw visions.

In another thread it is proposed that eating and consuming form a significant part of other magical traditions (possibly through forging a connection with another entity), including the Maegi, the greenseers of the Old Gods and possibly religions of the East like the R'hollor priesthood. It is very interesting that the Faith of the Seven is in stark contrast to the practices of the other religious magicks (who share feature amongst themselves).

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I thought I would cast another thought into the mix

The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with

steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their

chests.

"And you, brother," said Ser Illifer. "Who are you?"

"Poor fellows" said a big man with an axe. Despite the chill of the autumnal wood, he

was shirtless, and on his breast was carved a seven-pointed star. Andal warriors had

carved such stars in their flesh when first they crossed the narrow sea to overwhelm the

kingdoms of the First Men.

Could it be the carving of the seven-pointed star into bleeding flesh, related to some form of blood magic back in the distant early days of the Faith of the Seven?

...Or is it just a token of courage or madness or commitment and bad-assery along the lines of the Burned men in the Mountains of the Moon?

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I see the possible connection between the faith and Oldtown as paticularly interesting, since the maesters seem to be against all forms of magic, or at least they don't want people to know about it. Perhaps that has a connection to the Faith's apparent lack of magic.

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3. I don't think the Faith will have great sucsess with magic because they won't condone bloodmagic.

Great thread with a lot of great idas, but I'd like to address this first. I think you might be right about that. But I think all the magic we have seen so far in these stories have been the blood of others. The horse and Dany's baby for Drogo, leeches, etc. Maybe the Faith of the Seven turn that inward. It could be that it's not so much the about the blood, as it is about the sacrifice involved. You guys have found many instances of fasting in the story so far, and the result has been visions. What happens if a warrior ups the ante and self immolates? We know about medieval instances of corporeal mortification, self immolation in the Catholic Church. Maybe drawing one's own blood could be sacrifice enough for a magic more powerful? I think that imagery would fit in the world Martin has already created.

Next, this is more addressed to page one of this thread when the discussion was more geared toward magic in general in regards to the Seven. and someone eluded to it earlier.

I think in Martin's world, 'the gods' are cultural externalizations of that culture's ancient ancestors relationship to magic, with magic being tied to a land base. Magic is 'the gods' and 'the gods' is magic. Various cultures are going to manifest that magic in different ways based on their relationship to their land base for the simple reason that the land they live on is particular to that region. It also seems to me to be elemental; fire, ice, storm, water, earth, etc. The Northerners via the Children of the Forest manifested that magic into the forests (earth), a relationship with magic in this way allowed certain people a to see into the world, into past, present, and future, and to even control the minds of others. The Others manifested that magic into winter itself, a relationship with which allows them to raise and control the dead and move with the wind (right?). Fire manifested into dragons in Essos, and the Valyrian's relationship to that magic allowed them to conquer a significant part Essos and beyond, and raise the dead via the kiss of fire. So I like this idea of Volantis being significant, maybe even a 'holy land' to the Seven, possibly the land base that spawned the relationship. I am very curious to learn more about the origins of the Faith of the Seven.

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I see the possible connection between the faith and Oldtown as paticularly interesting, since the maesters seem to be against all forms of magic, or at least they don't want people to know about it. Perhaps that has a connection to the Faith's apparent lack of magic.

Actually that's an interesting point. In there present day there is no rivalry between Septons and Maesters, no competing for the Lord's ear. It is accepted as customary and proper that every Southron Lord keep both a maester and septon in his service. Both have won out culturally. It is the Wisdoms of the ancient Alchemists' Guild that have been sidelined.

It seems to me that earlier in their history the Faith of the Seven was an inseparable part of Andal culture. They were religious zealots. So the septons likely filled a similar role to that of the maesters. With the integration of the Andals into Westeros it is likely that there would be competition between Septons and Maesters, especially with Lords of mixed ancestry (many Andals married into great Houses of the First Men) who maintained both cultures. This might have created a political climate where magic was more associated with one side than the other and so, in the public eye and propaganda.

Much in the same way as the British Royal Family eschewed their German blood (on the male side) changing their name from "Saxe-Coburg and Gotha" to the more English "Windsor" in response to anti-German sentiment during World War I. At the time royal members even spoke German but they had blood continuity with earlier English monarchs through the female line.

Sam says that many of the oldest histories were written by Septons. And Tyrion tells us that the First Men only left runes on rocks. But there are Valyrian scrolls in the Citadel so maybe some maesters could write and keep histories/wisdom - though this may not have been necessary in an era of many weirwood-connected greenseers.

Can anyone find quotes to shed light on the early relationship between Maesters of the Citadel and Septons of the Faith? Especially with regard to magick...

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I think in Martin's world, 'the gods' are cultural externalizations of that culture's ancient ancestors relationship to magic, with magic being tied to a land base. Magic is 'the gods' and 'the gods' is magic. Various cultures are going to manifest that magic in different ways based on their relationship to their land base...

1

To Areo Speedwagon, I absolutely agree! I think the core practice of magick becomes emeshed in many layers of cultural practise and interpretation. Thankfully though, this also allows magical practices to be preserved in the collective memory even after the potency of magick has dwindled over the centuries.

Great thread with a lot of great idas, but I'd like to address this first. I think you might be right about that. But I think all the magic we have seen so far in these stories have been the blood of others. The horse and Dany's baby for Drogo, leeches, etc. Maybe the Faith of the Seven turn that inward. It could be that it's not so much the about the blood, as it is about the sacrifice involved. You guys have found many instances of fasting in the story so far, and the result has been visions. What happens if a warrior ups the ante and self immolates? We know about medieval instances of corporeal mortification, self immolation in the Catholic Church. Maybe drawing one's own blood could be sacrifice enough for a magic more powerful?...

I agree.

Examples:

Flesh symbols

1] Like how the first Andal warriors would carve the seven-pointed star into their flesh.

2] Trial by Combat - First Blood

2] Could not the trial by combat where blood is spilled (obliquely in honour of The Warrior) have blood magick connotations. The Faith claims that a trial by combat evokes the Gods to uphold Justice. Perhaps this was once a more literal expectation?

Duels are often not to the death (ending the dispute by leaving only one survivor) but only to first blood (i.e. the duel itself must settle the dispute) such with the duel between Oberyn Martell and Edgar Yrnwood.

2.1] Ancient Andal Rules

In the Hedge Knight Dunk is called to participation in an unusual version of a trial by combat which was closer to the stringent requirements of the ancient Andals: Seven knights vs Seven knights.

Is there any other aspect of the trial by combat which has a more stringent, ancient form? Keeping to more ancient rules may reveal a more magical basis.

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yeah, The stars carved into the chest were something I had in mind.

Also, sort of relevant here, as the man was a septon and wrote a very important book on dragons, I'll copy a post made by Bran Vras since he doesn't seem to be around anymore. Some very interesting stuff if you haven't read it before....

I have discussed Septon Barth in a concurrent thread a few days ago. It's an important question to determine whether a certain book given to Arianne in the tower at Sunspear is Septon Barth’s Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History.

While I was considering starting a thread on Barth, a topic appeared in the General Forum in which the following question was asked:

Are Septon Barth's writings on dragons reliable?

I replied what follows and added my own thoughts on the Septon. Since the thread seems to have gone into oblivion, it's worthwile, perhaps that I repost here. (I have learnt my lesson: don't post anything elaborate in the General Forum.) Let's begin with how Tyrion describes Barth in ADwD:

Impressive resumé: blacksmith's son, septon, sorcerer, King's Hand. But there is more. Tyrion mentions Barth two other occasions. Once when he sees crossbows during the siege of Meereen.

Note how this foreshadows Quentyn's demise, after Viserion is angered by crossbow bolt (we had a discussion about this in the other thread). So what little we know about Barth's writings seems accurate.

Here is the third mention.

Tyrion seems to have respect for Barth's writing. As maester Aemon does in AFfC, when he answers Tyrion's interrogation.

and

As further indication of the quality of Barth's study in light of the ban, one might recall Tyrion's famous pronouncement: "When you tear out a man’s tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you’re only telling the world that you fear what he might say."

So the few indications we have seem to confirm Barth's competence. Beyond that, I can't answer the OP. But I would be very interested to hear what people have to say about my attempted demonstration that the book in the tower of Sunspear is Barth's (see other thread).

A few more things have to be noted.

1) It's not so surprising that a Septon was Hand of the King considering the circumstances of the time. At the beginning of the reign of Jaehaerys, an agreement was reached between the Church of the Seven and the Iron Throne for the dismantlement of the militant orders. Perhaps the Church was allowed to name the Hand as part of the agreeement.

2) Barth's work was banned long after his death. Baelor came to power just after the death of his father Daeron, in Dorne. I suspect that the ban has to do with the defeat of the Targaryens in Dorne, which might be related with the book in the tower (and I say this having in mind that dragons had disappeared at the time). Since Dorne wasn't part of the Seven Kingdoms at the time, copies of Barth's work could have survived there after the ban, which would explain that Doran Martell has a copy of Barth's Unnatural History.

3) Now the thing that intrigues me the most: in the crypts, Bran and Rickon contemplate the statues of the dead Lords of Winterfell:

Lyanna and Brandon were siblings. I understand that the conjunction "and' designates a link between siblings in the list above. Hence Lord Barth must have been a brother of Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan. (By counting the generations, it seems to fit the timeline.) Aemon the Dragonknight lived, of course, long after the death of the Septon.

There is a living northman called Barth in ACoK (it's a minor character). For me, there is little doubt that Barth is a northern name (which is compatible with what we know of the the phonetics of Westerosi nomenclature.) It's a bit odd for a septon, since northmen do not follow the Faith of the Seven.

Morevoer King Jaehaerys' reign has been important for the North: he abolished the first night rule, and his wife, Alysanne, traveled to the Wall on her dragon, and was a benefactor to the Watch, by giving the New Gift. It's the only time, I think, that we heard that the Targaryens have done anything for the Wall. If Barth was a northman, he might have been the one behind the Iron Throne's northern policy of Jaehaerys' reign. For the Starks, naming a son Barth could have have been an homage to the benevolent Septon.

Finally, a wild speculation: Barth could have been the Bloodraven of his time. Both were Hand of the Kings, who kept the peace, and were reputed to be sorcerers. If you add the northern connection, and the eventual mysterious fall in disgrace (Bloodraven imprisoned, then sent to the wall, Barth's writings destroyed) it seems to fit.

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There is also some great stuff from Elaena Targaryen early in this thread that I didn't know what to make of this at the time but remains a set of deeply, deeply intriguing points. Well found Elaena Targaryen!! I think they are worth revisiting and investigating...

THE JUST MAID

Love the thread!

On magical artifacts of the seven has anyone mentioned the sword the Just Maid? AFFC Brienne...

He is a knight so this happens in Westeros and he would not use the sword on a mortal man, that could mean he used it on an undead or some such else why say man at all. This could be bad news for UnGregor.

ETA

I found more ^ and this might have happened not so long ago, during the time of Targaryen dragons in Westeros, so the Faith could still have the sword. Interesting that he slayed a dragon with just a sword. ( on another note Brienne had a brother named Galladon that died )

I didn't know what to make of this at the time but deeply, deeply intriguing point. Well found Elaena Targaryen!!

What has become of the Just Maid since? If it were from the Seven perhaps it was entrusted back to the Faith?

I agree, clearly not for fighting mere mortal men (rather for quests befitting the Warrior's Sons, like dragonslaying). But then, pray tell, what were the other two occasions for which Ser Galladon unsheathed the Just Maid? Are there any other mysteriously successful slayings in the known history anyone?

WEIRWOODS AND THE FAITH

Also Tyrion's High Septon had a weirwood staff ( I can't remember his name )

I think all of the High Septons use this weirwood staff but I'm not sure.

I don't think any of the recent High Septons are given names in the text.

My first thought is that the weirwood staff is a trophy of sorts from a time when religious Andals systematically cut down/destroyed every weirwood and Child of the Forest they could find.

Nonetheless, it is intriguing. Perhaps it was a was of feeding information to the "Enemy" (Bloodraven says that Bran will oneday graduate to being able to see through all weirwood), in which case the Faith knew their enemy surprisingly well. Or perhaps its a recognition of the basic magical properties of weirwoods beyond religious affiliation. Or perhaps weirwoods had more widespread use and significance accross cultures. For example, how should the presence of of a weirwood door in the House of the Many-faced God be interpretted?.

The High Septon's robes and the Most Devout's robes are encrusted with crystals and all members of the faith are buried with a crystal, even those buried on the side of the road. I seem to remember when Dany drank shade of the evening it was from a crystal glass. Here is a play on words with crystal and magic from Sansa

It seems the crystal reflecting light is of import seen in weddings, funerals, trial by combat and in the sept in general. Could using light have some magical meaning? I found a statement from Lysa that I thought could be interesting...

Just something else, unrelated, that's interesting from Catelyn

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the maesters made them up. they seek to impose the false religion of the 7 on the world so they can impose thier view of a world without magic on everyone else.the gods are all refelections of the human experience. fueled by ignorance, based on knowledge. the maesters study magic in order to thwart it. bran posesses hodor neither bran nor hodor are evil yet hodor is killed and bran thought banished"demonic posesson" in a nutshell.

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5. It could be that these crystals interfere with magic, maybe they can dispel a glamour.

^This. The Faith will be the anti-magic, paladin-type warriors in which the only way to beat them is with superior physical attributes and training.

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This is slightly veering away off topic but has anyone considered Dany's relationship with the Faith? In the books I don't ever remember her mentioning religion at all. Being raised as a child in Essos it's not even clear whether she has any religion at all. Viserys was consumed with the thought of retunring to Westeros to recaliam the throne, the Faith isn't really popular in Essos, so where does that leave Dany and any relationship she might have with the Faith once she returns to Westeros?

In fact with so many of her followers calling her 'mother' it seems like she is slowly building up her own personality cult. Whenever she dreams or thinks about Westeros she is always imagining her suffering children and how she needs to save them. She almost personifies the image of a mother goddess.

Alternatively, Dany also seems to contain all the facets of the seven within her already.

Father/Mother: Carer of her followers and able to raise dragons.

Maiden/Crone: Loses the ability to bear children, but by the end of ADwD she begins menstrating again. Maybe she has been reborn?

Smith: She is able to forge her own destiny, also is clver when she needs to be.

Warrior: She conquered a few cities...

Stranger: Death and the unknown surround her and the people she cares about.

What do you all think about her relationship with the 7 and with how the Faith will react if she ever makes it across to Westeros?

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Alternatively, Dany also seems to contain all the facets of the seven within her already.

Father/Mother: Carer of her followers and able to raise dragons.

Maiden/Crone: Loses the ability to bear children, but by the end of ADwD she begins menstrating again. Maybe she has been reborn?

Smith: She is able to forge her own destiny, also is clver when she needs to be.

Warrior: She conquered a few cities...

Stranger: Death and the unknown surround her and the people she cares about.

What do you all think about her relationship with the 7 and with how the Faith will react if she ever makes it across to Westeros?

I don't see anything of the Crone in Dany. The Crone symbolizes wisdom and leads the people - Dany is more in need of beeing leadet than leading others to wisdom...

In general, I have no clue to which religion Dany tends, but for the Faith - I think they will not like dragons, and neither the mother of dragons! I think Mel will be much more attracted by the flying lizards.

---

To the OP: Great job!

The crystals as a kind of disguise-detector makes sense, I like this thought. Not quite sure yet if the will use magic (a kind of "white magic" in opposite to black magic of the other religions) or if they are completely against any kind of magic.

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The Andal Magick of anti-Magick

^This. The Faith will be the anti-magic, paladin-type warriors in which the only way to beat them is with superior physical attributes and training.
Indeed! If magic is awakening in the world then its counter-point, its anti-magick may be evoked. In the grand rhythms of Ice and Fire (if you ascribe to theories that that this worlds magick has cycles like the seasons) perhaps the rise of the ancient Andal anti-magick magick is inevitable.

==========================================================**The **Prominence of fair competition in the Andal culture of the Seven**

==========================================================But

if you're using magick to neutralize/counter magick... that's still magick.though you raise a very interesting point MayNeverDie...

We see that the Faith of the supports conflict that is "fair". Perhaps the Warriors Sons will not pursue an agenda per sé, but insist and enforce some conditions of Fair conflict.

Trials by combat

For example the idea of a Trial by combat or even a Trial of Seven, is an Andal/Seven notion. Knights swear not to protect the good and vanquish the evil (though its implied), but to defend the weak.

Ser Galladon & the Just Maid

Consider, the very pivotal story (told by idealistic Brienne to jade Dick Crabb) of the supposed perfect knight in Andal legend, Ser Galladon of Morne who was gifted an unstoppable sword, the 'Just Maid' but never used it against mortal men because it wouldn't have been a fair fight. But he DID use it three times against other kinds of foe, presumeably because it WAS NOT a fair fight. (It is also interesting that his sword was named the 'Just Maid': The severity and judgement of the father intertwined with the aspect of the maid and her love for Galladon).

The Politics of Justice

We also see that in society, and politically, the prime function of The Faith is as a dispenser, moderator, medium and agent of Justice. They have legal/cultural power to charge and punish and act on behalf of the victims even where no-one is "pressing" the charges.

Especially now, The Faith is spearheaded by the sparrows and poor fellows, disenfranchised, downtrodden, robbed and trifling peasant (en masse). So perhaps the Faith Militant will not always "Ride to the Rescue" but simply empower the weak and say 'OK, now you guys can fight over it and we'll see who wins. Praise be to Seven!".

The Faith and the Iron Bank of Braavos

There is an interesting parallel between the Faith and the Iron Bank. The Iron Bank never directly intervenes or acts against anyone. But they sure as hell protect their interests, bulldoze their agenda and destroy their transgressing enemies! Instead they merely empower the alternative contender. They shift the balance of power and then let natural forces and ever-present competition play itself out.

We know that despite the High Sparrow downplaying the importance of wealth we know that the Faith has access to vast reservoirs of sheer cash. After Tywin Lannister, King Robert lent heaviest from The Faith to the tune of some one million Dragons. That's serious financial clout right their, even with out the military might of the Faith Millitant. The High Sparrow essentially bought off the Crown. Even if they have no money in hand they effectively tax the entire Kingdom (like the throne) in tithes. And who is paying to so quickly rearm this barely reborn Faith Militant...?

So for example the High Septon isn't placing anyone on the throne by force but he withholds his blessing and his money and perhaps spreads some rumours and there tips the balance without him doing anything. But he knew what power he had in hand.

{PS: My apologies, my posts today are bit disorganized.}

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Do you guys not consider Davos speaking with the mother while close to death a "magickal" moment for the seven of Westeros? Or do you believe this was just a hallucination. Davos himself states that no ship has any business nearing those rocks to save him, yet after his conversation w/ the mother and swearing to get revenge ("they burned us!") the ship comes right up to him...

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I saw mention of moonstones earlier in the thread and just found some evidence in The Mystery Knight that highly suggests gemstones, moonstones in particular here, are definitely steeped in meaning/magic/glamours. While rereading today, Dunk points out a humongous moonstone that clamps Maynard Plumm cloak. Later Dunk mentions that he saw,

"...a single pale white eye. It was only when the man came forward that the shadowed face beneath the cowl took on the familiar features of Ser Maynard Plumm, the pale white eye no more then a moonstone brooch that pinned his cloak at the shoulder."

At first I thought that maybe, since Plumm clearly was working with BR in the story (and the single pale white eye statement directed my thoughts immediately to BR), that potentially BR was able to use the moonstone in order to look in on situations sort of like a Palantir. It could be possible; but about a page later, Dunk says,

"This close, there was something queer about the cast of Ser Maynard's features. The longer Dunk looked, the less he seemed to see."

The wording of that left me feeling no doubt that the moonstone played a part in glamouring Plumm either as BR or maybe just hiding the true cause of Plumm's presents at Butterwell's wedding tourney... hopefully this info isn't a repeat in the thread.

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OK, we were looking for a definitive example of magic in the Faith of the Seven. Here is the best I found. It raised an eyebrow for me. And its exactly the kind of discovery of magic we have been talking about: Inadvertent magick by mimicking the Faithful of old (like Thoros when he resurrected Beric).

Lancel is one of our first encounters with a member of the new and fanatical Warrior's Sons. He does exactly this and copies the behaviour of Baelor the Blessed (a peaceful zealot of the Seven) and claims to have gotten results.

Admittedly he doesn't give us many concrete details to check accuracy. Jaime did not kill Lancel but he does in fact already know about Lancel's crimes. We also know that Jaime has known jealousy and rash acts before. Nonetheless Jaime DID come to Castle Darry as Lancel had seen. This was not an obvious occurrence. In fact it was unexpected: The Maester at Darry conveys this...

It's hard to know what to make of Baelor the Blessed. He seems to have had some of the Targaryen Madness but what of his "Greatness" is true or magical? He was prone to hallucinations ostensibly born of religious zeal. Or were they visions? We know of other Targaryens who had visions that came true in Daeron the Drunk. We are told that he rescued Aemon the Dragonknight from a pit of vipers and was repeatedly bitten but unharmed by the poison (like Melisandre). Even though some say its metaphorical for simply escaping Dorne. Though we also know that the Dornish (or at least Oberyn) use poison milked from snakes. He also, interestingly enough, raised to High Septon a boy of 8 he claimed could perform "miracles" (read magick). Maybe Baelor really did perform or follow some magic in his pursuit of religious purity.

If Baelor (the Befuddled or Blessed) is a case of magic for the Seven, is there any other behaviour/practice of his that the Warrior's Sons might copy with unexpected results?

Is this convo between Jaime and Lancel?

What type of scenario would result in Jaime killing Lancel....?

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Is it possible Ser Robert Strong is the Warrior re-born? I know it sounds crazy but what's with the piety?



When Cersei meets with the High Sparrow and suggests restoring the Faith Militant he declares:



AFoC Cersei VI


“Maegor’s laws—”


“—could be undone.” She let that hang there, waiting for the High Sparrow to rise to the bait.


He did not disappoint her. “The Faith Militant reborn... that would be the answer to three hundred years of prayer, Your Grace. The Warrior would lift his shining sword again and cleanse this sinful realm of all its evil. If His Grace were to allow me to restore the ancient blessed orders of the Sword and Star, every godly man in the Seven Kingdoms would know him to be our true and rightful lord.”




And when Qyburn introduces Robert Strong he informs Cersei of his holy vow:



ADwD Cersei II


Cersei never saw where Qyburn came from, but suddenly he was there beside them, scrambling to keep up with her champion’s long strides. “Your Grace,” he said, “it is so good to have you back. May I have the honor of presenting our newest member of the Kingsguard? This is Ser Robert Strong.”


“Ser Robert,” Cersei whispered, as they entered the gates. “If it please Your Grace, Ser Robert has taken a holy vow of silence,” Qyburn said. “He has sworn that he will not speak until all of His Grace’s enemies are dead and evil has been driven from the realm.”




Earlier Qyburn suggests a new champion for the Kingsgaurd, should anything happen to Loras, he describes a champion that is most devout:



AFoC Cersei VII


“Should Ser Loras fall, Your Grace will need to find another worthy for the Kingsguard,” Lord Qyburn said as they crossed over the spiked moat that girded Maegor’s Holdfast.


“Someone splendid,” she agreed. “Someone so young and swift and strong that Tommen will forget all about Ser Loras. A bit of gallantry would not be amiss, but his head should not be full of foolish notions. Do you know of such a man?”


“Alas, no,” said Qyburn. “I had another sort of champion in mind. What he lacks in gallantry he will give you tenfold in devotion. He will protect your son, kill your enemies, and keep your secrets, and no living man will be able to withstand him.”




When we last saw the Mountain he was donning a 7 pointed star as his sigil:



ASoS Tyrion X


Ser Osmund Kettleblack brought Clegane his shield, a massive thing of heavy oak rimmed in black iron. As the Mountain slid his left arm through the straps, Tyrion saw that the hounds of Clegane had been painted over. This morning Ser Gregor bore the seven-pointed star the Andals had brought to Westeros when they crossed the narrow sea to overwhelm the First Men and their gods. Very pious of you, Cersei, but I doubt the gods will be impressed.




Perhaps the shield hints at the reappearance/re-birth when Ser Robert Strong is presented in numerous symbols of the faith:



ADwD Cersei II


No. Her savior was real. Eight feet tall or maybe taller, with legs as thick around as trees, he had a chest worthy of a plow horse and shoulders that would not disgrace an ox. His armor was plate steel, enameled white and bright as a maiden’s hopes, and worn over gilded mail. A greathelm hid his face. From its crest streamed seven silken plumes in the rainbow colors of the Faith. A pair of golden seven-pointed stars clasped his billowing cloak at the shoulders.




There is also this little exchange between Jamie and Lancel (as Jamie sees his Father’s bones out the God’s Gate):



AFoC Jamie III


A flush crept up Lancel’s cheeks. “I pray for you, cousin. And for Her Grace the queen. May the Crone lead her to her wisdom and the Warrior defend her.”



Why would Cersei need the Warrior? She has me.” Jaime turned his horse about, his white cloak snapping in the wind.




If Robert Strong is the Warrior re-born...that would be some serious magic...we're talking jesus grade power.


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