Jon and Dany

[another bastard]

Jon fans and Dany fans often argue over which one gets to be AA but I don't see what's so great about being the hero. The people who save the day are usually forgotten see the first AA. & the masses don't care as long as they survive.

I should post this in the AA prophecies thread, but I've always thought it would make infinitely more sense if AA turned out to be a group of people rather than just one, or the entire human/living thing resistance against the Others. If you really want to subvert tropes, I can't think of a better one to subvert than "the chosen one." It's really getting tiresome.

[Buckwheat]

I don't think their relationships are exact just that they both had uneven power dynamics.

Ygritte had Jon's life in her hands. He was like a captive who could forget that he wasn't free. Dany/Drogo was worse though.

Daario did have to take a backseat to Dany's wishes. He didn't want her to marry Hizdahr but she is the queen.

I think Jon/Val's relationship would have been worse because she has absolutely no say especially when Stannis wanted her to be the Lady of WF. I feel bad for her.

Jon thinks that she will just geld the lord that she doesn't want but Selyse or Stannis could have her killed for doing that.

I think Jon/Val relationship would be the most even of those, actually. Jon respects her and treats her much more like a wildling ambassador, he sends her to search for Tormund, so he trusts her, and allows her to take care of the Monster. Val is very independent, she will not kneel to any man.

Stannis is no longer at the Wall. And I do not believe that he would kill her if she defended herself against rape. He is reasonable and just.

[another bastard]

Old Egypt says Hi 2 you. As would the Habsburgs and several other "cultures". Besides, the Targaryens were known for marrying brother to sister a lot, which makes it a tradition.

Those all involved royalty who were obsessed with the purity of their blood. A sick ideology designed to legitimate their rule over their ostensible inferiors, which they ended up believing in enough to actually do their own family members. [Hurl.]

And how'd that work out for them? Where are the Pharaohs and Hapsburgs now?

And how about the Targs? Where's all of this madness coming from? How about li'l Joff?

[ARYa_Nym]

Do you think that Dany can/will bear children? I know it is widely believed she had a miscarriage at the end of ADwD, but being able to get pregnant and being able to bear a living child are two entirely different things.

I'm torn about the Targs. I really started to like them after reading Dunk and Egg, but there's the whole greatness and madness issue. For every Baelor Breakspear you have an Aerion Brightflame.

And I have to side with Val the Wildling Princess on this. I really don't want Dany and Jon to end up together. I don't think their personalities would mesh well, and I believe they want different things.

I think she could just as easily end up hating him. He's (probably) the son of the woman that her brother loved(?) enough to encite rebellion and cause the downfall of her entire family. Not to mention he was raised by the usurper's BFF. And he's her nephew.

I took the miscarriage to qualify as her womb is quickening again. Many think that it means that she will see Drogo again by dying in childbirth but I hope not.

Your point about him being her nephew reminded me of another thing. Dany said that had Aegon lived she may have married him because he was closer to her age than Viserys. Jon is even closer to her in age. His claim helps her since male claimants are ahead of females.

I should post this in the AA prophecies thread, but I've always thought it would make infinitely more sense if AA turned out to be a group of people rather than just one, or the entire human/living thing resistance against the Others. If you really want to subvert tropes, I can't think of a better one to subvert than "the chosen one." It's really getting tiresome.

IA. I think that it's the three heads of the dragon, personally.

Quote possible of course, but a "bittersweet" ending does not mean that both of them necessarily need to die.

Ah yes. I would LOVE for Dany to end up on the Iron Throne since finally a woman would be allowed to show ambition which is about as taboo in fantasy literature as showing men having sex with other men. It would also completely redeem her Stockholm syndrome marriage to Drogo from a gender POV. A lot of people hate Dany for actually having ambition, but to me that is among her best qualities. She's ambitious and isn't ashamed to admit it. Go for it, I say!

IA. The depiction of Dany/Drogo is one of the things I hate most about the series.

I would love it too. I think at this stage neither Jon nor Dany are ready for it though. They still need to learn which is why I'm glad they're currently caught up with other things. I hope Dany will bounce back stronger than ever in the next book.

[another bastard]

Ah yes. I would LOVE for Dany to end up on the Iron Throne since finally a woman would be allowed to show ambition which is about as taboo in fantasy literature as showing men having sex with other men. It would also completely redeem her Stockholm syndrome marriage to Drogo from a gender POV. A lot of people hate Dany for actually having ambition, but to me that is among her best qualities. She's ambitious and isn't ashamed to admit it. Go for it, I say!

I'm all for this. I'd like to see her become an Elizabeth I figure presiding over a new era of peace and prosperity in Westeros, and lay to rest any doubts about womens' competence in the highest positions. Hell, as queen, she could even legislate the beginnings of equal rights, such as womens' entry into the Citadel, and revision of heredity laws for all noble families to put males and females on an equal footing, and all sorts of other things to begin leveling the playing field.

But she still has a lot of growing up to do to get there. And if she really grows up, I hope that she can see the Iron Throne for the evil thing that it is and cast it into the sea (similar to the Harpy Throne in Meereen), and reign as a constitutional monarch under a thoroughly reformed system of government - in which women could both vote and stand for Parliament. And realize that "purity of blood" is BS, and that out of all of the men in the world, she doesn't need to bang her nephew.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think Jon/Val relationship would be the most even of those, actually. Jon respects her and treats her much more like a wildling ambassador, he sends her to search for Tormund, so he trusts her, and allows her to take care of the Monster. Val is very independent, she will not kneel to any man.

Stannis is no longer at the Wall. And I do not believe that he would kill her if she defended herself against rape. He is reasonable and just.

We see her from his POV though. He thinks that she would make a worthy wife for any lord but what does she want? Does she want to be the Lady of WF or passed off to some other lord? I highly doubt this. He thinks that she would need to be stolen if he wanted her love but Mance called Jarl her latest pet. It seems likely to me that Val does the stealing.

I think she may flirt a bit but it may be because he's safe and that nothing will happen.

Selyse wanted to make a match for her.

"You are insolent. I suppose that is only to be expected of a wildling. We must find you a husband who can teach you courtesy."

I don't think she would react well if Val killed one of her men. She may not kill her for that but tbh I don't see Val living to the end either way.

[another bastard]

IA. I think that it's the three heads of the dragon, personally.

I can't help thinking this either. There's clues pointing to Dany, clues pointing to Jon, so why not make it both of them? - plus, I earnestly hope, the filthy-minded, cynical, twisted little monkey demon Tyrion, who's done all kinds of awful things and earned the undying hatred of many characters in the series and posters on this forum. If you're going to subvert a "chosen one" trope, why not make someone like him 1/3 of the supposed "chosen one."

[butterbumps!]

The only potentially convincing pieces of evidence as I see it are that those mentioned in the "bride of fire" sequence imply men she will "know in the biblical sense," mentioning the blue flower in ice, and her dream of receiving the seed of a dead man.

I'm not convinced, though, that the 3 scenarios mentioned here are definitively about men she will necessarily sleep with.

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling* stream, beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood prow at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness...mother of dragons, bride of fire

* darkling pertaining to night, or something very threatening and ominous

A "bride of fire" I see as less that she will "join forces" with the men in question (who I assume to be a khal, Victarion/ Euron and Jon), but moreso that she is a bringer of war, and will attempt to crush those in the prophesy. This part comes right after the sequence "mother of dragons, slayer of lies," and I think it has more to do with those who are ultimately to be adversaries than allies. At the end of DWD, Dany, herself, is walking through the grass, under the cover of night along a "darkling stream" when she runs into another khalasar. Opposition number 1. Euron/ Victarion are en route to, essentially, steal Dany and her Dragons to gain leverage for their own agenda. This is hardly the recipe for alliance- Opposition number 2. Jon, as I cannot imagine he will feel that her conquest of Westeros is conducive to fighting whatever threat he seems to be facing, will probably find her actions, or her association with magic to be worthy of some form of opposition. Or for those who prefer to see Dany as the savior, Jon turns to the dark side and raises an army of wights, to which she'll be the sword in the darkness (not the theory I favor, but I'll state it for the record). Anyway, Opposition number 3.

I'm not sure about the "dead man's seed," though, so I'll admit that it's curious, especially as Jon has an adjacent dream in which he is basically undead. Perhaps this is wishful thinking, but I'd like to imagine this "giving seed" as a metaphor for his triumph over her and her dragons (like a kiss from a sword), since I really think what Dany represents is going to play out as the power that must be overcome ultimately.

[Dacie]

Your point about him being her nephew reminded me of another thing. Dany said that had Aegon lived she may have married him because he was closer to her age than Viserys. Jon is even closer to her in age. His claim helps her since male claimants are ahead of females.

I amended my original post, for clarity.

(Honest disclaimer: I don't care for Dany and Jon is my favorite character, but I'm going to try to be objective about this)

I'm not sure how Dany would feel, after everything, to get to Westeros and discover that there's someone with a better, more legitimate claim than hers. Not only that, but he was raised by the Starks, who she refers to as the usurper's dogs. I do not think this would sit well with her, or that after all she's gone through to get back "her" kingdom, that she would just marry him to solidify her claim.

IMO she's much more about taking what is hers, fire and blood and all that. I think that if she gets the throne, the only way she'll be satisfied is if she gets it on her own through conquering. I think her marriage to Hizdar can be used as an example. She marries him because she thinks it is the right thing to do to bring peace to Meereen. Same with Khal Drogo. She was sold to him, but in the end she adapted and made the best of a bad situation. Drogo did not work out, and I don't think Hizdar will either. I hope she realizes that political marriage is not the way to go, and if she becomes Queen of Westeros, she does it on her own merit, and not by marrying Jon.

Plus, I don't think Jon wants anything to do with the Iron Throne (I hope not, anyway). Starks do not do well south of the Neck, and he is very much a Stark, regardless of who his father is.

[Buckwheat]

IA. The depiction of Dany/Drogo is one of the things I hate most about the series.

:agree: What I dislike most is her idolising their life together late in ADWD, after he is long dead. She should have realised by then that their relationship was not much better than slavery.

We see her from his POV though. He thinks that she would make a worthy wife for any lord but what does she want? Does she want to be the Lady of WF or passed off to some other lord? I highly doubt this. He thinks that she would need to be stolen if he wanted her love but Mance called Jarl her latest pet. It seems likely to me that Val does the stealing.

I think she may flirt a bit but it may be because he's safe and that nothing will happen.

Selyse wanted to make a match for her.

I don't think she would react well if Val killed one of her men. She may not kill her for that but tbh I don't see Val living to the end either way.

You might be right about her flirting beacause she is safe, but I have a feeling that she would do it either way, just because she likes it. What I think she wants is to steal herself a husband/lover/whatever. She does not care what Selyse or any other Southerner thinks about it. Selyse will not react well if she harms any of her men, but I doubt she can do much if Val runs away north or gets Jon's protection.

But apparently we agree on Val not going to survive much longer. And about her and Jon not making a couple.

[etu]

There is mileage to the original post but I sure as hell hope its wrong.

[ARYa_Nym]

I amended my original post, for clarity.

(Honest disclaimer: I don't care for Dany and Jon is my favorite character, but I'm going to try to be objective about this)

I'm not sure how Dany would feel, after everything, to get to Westeros and discover that there's someone with a better, more legitimate claim than hers. Not only that, but he was raised by the Starks, who she refers to as the usurper's dogs. I do not think this would sit well with her, or that after all she's gone through to get back "her" kingdom, that she would just marry him to solidify her claim.

IMO she's much more about taking what is hers, fire and blood and all that. I think that if she gets the throne, the only way she'll be satisfied is if she gets it on her own through conquering. I think her marriage to Hizdar can be used as an example. She marries him because she thinks it is the right thing to do to bring peace to Meereen. Same with Khal Drogo. She was sold to him, but in the end she adapted and made the best of a bad situation. Drogo did not work out, and I don't think Hizdar will either. I hope she realizes that political marriage is not the way to go, and if she becomes Queen of Westeros, she does it on her own merit, and not by marrying Jon.

Plus, I don't think Jon wants anything to do with the Iron Throne (I hope not, anyway). Starks do not do well south of the Neck, and he is very much a Stark, regardless of who his father is.

The masses would have to believe that he is Rhaegar's son though for her to really be offended. I don't think he can try his claim on his own. He has no proof and he doesn't look like Rhaegar. Aegon may not be real but he's in a better position currently.

I don't think Jon is going to be the same in the next two books so I wouldn't be surprised if he became more ambitious or ruthless. He already was ambitious though by wanting WF when he did not have a claim. I read an interesting comment in another thread that he went to the Wall because he could not have WF and he didn't want to settle for less.

If Ghost/Jon is Dany's Mount to Love though it implies that it will be a romantic relationship. I think in asoiaf though whether the relationship is political or if it's for love it can still go to hell.

:agree: What I dislike most is her idolising their life together late in ADWD, after he is long dead. She should have realised by then that their relationship was not much better than slavery.

I don't really blame the character. I blame how the relationship was written starting from the wedding night.

[Ser Wun Wun]

Another possible piece of evidence is the fact that if cooler heads had prevailed, and instead of starting a war the Starks had consented to Rhaegar taking Lyanna as his second wife, their son (Jon, or whatever that would have named him) would have probably been married off to Daenery's.

Think about it: Aegon, being heir to Rhaegar, would have been married to his sister Rhaenys (even though she was a bit older). That only leaves Viserys and Jon to contend for Dany. Jon, being second in line for the throne, would have definitely gotten priority on the last available Targ bride. So in a sense you could say they were "meant" for each other.

In the story, incest has destroyed the Targs.

Incest is of course icky, but I don't it's the reason the Targ's fell from power, or why there have been so many mad kings. Obviously some of the Targ's have been mad, but I blame this more on the corrupting influence of absolute power and/or the pressures of ruling than on genetics. Aerys, for instance, was not the product of incest (according to the wiki, his father married outside the family for love). In his youth he was said to be charming and sane but he went mad as he got older, and I believe this was because he buckled under the pressure of trying to rule. He brought over Varys because he was convinced his subjects were conspiring against him, and I don't even think he was wrong. He was kidnapped by one of them for a start, but we've also started to hear about Lord Rickard's "southron ambitions". Paranoia simply consumed him imo.

And Joffrey, I think, was mad because of the way his mother raised him, not because of the incest. Simply put, Cersei's efforts to 'prepare' Joff to rule created a monster. She filled his head with nonsense and indulged him to a ridiculous extent. The best evidence of her being largely responsible for Joff is the fact that she didn't seem to spend as much time 'preparing' Tommen and Myrcella like she did Joff, and they turned out fine.

Anway, a real sticking point with me about the Jon/Dany thing is that I don't believe Jon would ever knowingly marry his aunt. Which is why I think the only way it will happen is if he doesn't know about his true parentage. At least not until after things have already been consummated, when there is no putting the toothpaste back into the tube if you know what I mean :P

[Lyanna Stark]

I can't help thinking this either. There's clues pointing to Dany, clues pointing to Jon, so why not make it both of them? - plus, I earnestly hope, the filthy-minded, cynical, twisted little monkey demon Tyrion, who's done all kinds of awful things and earned the undying hatred of many characters in the series and posters on this forum. If you're going to subvert a "chosen one" trope, why not make someone like him 1/3 of the supposed "chosen one."

Agreed. I think Tyrion would make a great third head of the dragon, because he is smart and resourceful, even if he happens to be a dwarf.

Regarding the incest marriages, I think this varies between cultures and it has been a theme for some royal houses/royal lines, among them the old Egyptians. I also don't think you could argue that old Egypt failed because of incest. ;)

The Targaryens didn't always marry within the family either, but they sometimes did. Rhaegar did not, for instance, and before Dany's parents it was a while. As far as I know, neither Jaehaerys nor Aegon V married close family members. (Don't think Maekar did either and Daeron II married a Martell). Even though it is often a cultural taboo, genetically, if it happens about as rarely as in the latest six generations of Targaryens, it should not be a problem per se.

And Joffrey, I think, was mad because of the way his mother raised him, not because of the incest. Simply put, Cersei's efforts to 'prepare' Joff to rule created a monster. She filled his head with nonsense and indulged him to a ridiculous extent. The best evidence of her being largely responsible for Joff is the fact that she didn't seem to spend as much time 'preparing' Tommen and Myrcella like she did Joff, and they turned out fine.

We also have the example of Sweetrobin who is displaying some of the characteristics of Joffrey, albeit perhaps with slightly less cruelty. What they have in common is that they were spoilt rotten and doused with entitlement from an early age.

I also agree that Tommen and Myrcella seem like really sweet kids so "incest + awful children" is not necessarily true.

Also, see Gilly.

[Budj]

Jon went to the wall because he was under the impression it was a noblel/heroic cause and because no one would care that he was a bastard.

I do see how Jon and dany could end up together, but I don't think it is in Jon's character to marry his aunt. I find myself wondering if the kingdom isn't split into at the neck with a king in the north / assimilated wildlings and dany in the south....

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The only potentially convincing pieces of evidence as I see it are that those mentioned in the "bride of fire" sequence imply men she will "know in the biblical sense," mentioning the blue flower in ice, and her dream of receiving the seed of a dead man.

I'm not convinced, though, that the 3 scenarios mentioned here are definitively about men she will necessarily sleep with.

A "bride of fire" I see as less that she will "join forces" with the men in question (who I assume to be a khal, Victarion/ Euron and Jon), but moreso that she is a bringer of war, and will attempt to crush those in the prophesy. This part comes right after the sequence "mother of dragons, slayer of lies," and I think it has more to do with those who are ultimately to be adversaries than allies. At the end of DWD, Dany, herself, is walking through the grass, under the cover of night along a "darkling stream" when she runs into another khalasar. Opposition number 1. Euron/ Victarion are en route to, essentially, steal Dany and her Dragons to gain leverage for their own agenda. This is hardly the recipe for alliance- Opposition number 2. Jon, as I cannot imagine he will feel that her conquest of Westeros is conducive to fighting whatever threat he seems to be facing, will probably find her actions, or her association with magic to be worthy of some form of opposition. Or for those who prefer to see Dany as the savior, Jon turns to the dark side and raises an army of wights, to which she'll be the sword in the darkness (not the theory I favor, but I'll state it for the record). Anyway, Opposition number 3.

I'm not sure about the "dead man's seed," though, so I'll admit that it's curious, especially as Jon has an adjacent dream in which he is basically undead. Perhaps this is wishful thinking, but I'd like to imagine this "giving seed" as a metaphor for his triumph over her and her dragons (like a kiss from a sword), since I really think what Dany represents is going to play out as the power that must be overcome ultimately.

That's more or less what I'm thinking. I also wonder how one can explain the lack of Hizdahr and/or Daario in the sequence, seeing as she married one of them (it's supposed to show her husbands, right, according to this idea?) and "knew" both of them, Biblically. There are also more than a few people who think the corpse on the ship is actually, say, Maester Aemon, not one of the Greyjoys. So it seems like the idea at the very least has a few holes (namely, it's missing at least one husband and two known sexual partners), and a possible misinterpretation (if the ship corpse isn't even a Greyjoy). So it might not mean what some people think.

All that "bride of fire" brings to my mind, to be frank, is the possibility that she'll grow to love fire a little too much. Her father used fire as the "champion" of the house during the Starks' trial by combat. What might be the feminine equivalent? "Marrying" fire, perhaps? And the thing is, the visions could still sort of work that way. It was her marriage to Drogo and his death (funeral pyre — fire) that gave her the dragons eggs and helped hatch them, respectively — the vision of the silver. Let's say that the corpse on the ship is a Greyjoy; she could defeat him with a dragon or have a dragon stolen by him — still a fire connection. If it's Maester Aemon, he was the one trying to shoehorn her into the AA/Prince prophecy. And as Butterbumps suggests, it's not much of a stretch to imagine a similar fire-based confrontation with Jon. Dany dreams that she fights an army armored in ice (fighting it with fire), and Jon dreams of fighting while armored in ice. That suggests an adversarial relationship, not a marriage.

I hate the idea of Jon/Dany pairing for all sorts of reasons. They're not the other's type, I'm not convinced it could be written believably in such a short amount of space, it's a cliched reading of main guy-marries-main girl and it just ties it up way too neatly for my tastes. If it happens, it happens, but I can't see any scenario in which I won't dislike it immensely.

I think there's a lot more possibilities for what the sequence of visions could mean, in addition to finding the general idea distasteful.

[ARYa_Nym]

Jon went to the wall because he was under the impression it was a noblel/heroic cause and because no one would care that he was a bastard.

I do see how Jon and dany could end up together, but I don't think it is in Jon's character to marry his aunt. I find myself wondering if the kingdom isn't split into at the neck with a king in the north / assimilated wildlings and dany in the south....

"I want to serve in the Night's Watch, Uncle." He had thought on it long and hard...Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn?"

I think the fact that he wasn't informed him of the current state of the NW until Tyrion told him indeed factored in as to why he wanted to join but it was also because he did not have his siblings' privilege. He thought that the Wall was the only place where he could advance himself when that wasn't true at all.

I think there's a lot more possibilities for what the sequence of visions could mean, in addition to finding the general idea distasteful.

Jon dreamed he was armored in black ice though with a burning sword and not just ice like Dany did. The black ice may refer to something else.

[Lyanna Stark]

Jon dreamed he was armored in black ice though with a burning sword and not just ice like Dany did. The black ice may refer to something else.

Black ice sounds almost like obsidian, or dragon glass. The black armour was also something Rhaegar wore and there are black empty armour standing about in the cellars of the Red Keep. Both Arya and Ned see them I believe. Or maybe it's Sansa when she flees with Ser Dontos.

Black and fire related colours are Rhaegar's colours, in general.

That's more or less what I'm thinking. I also wonder how one can explain the lack of Hizdahr and/or Daario in the sequence, seeing as she married one of them (it's supposed to show her husbands, right, according to this idea?) and "knew" both of them, Biblically. There are also more than a few people who think the corpse on the ship is actually, say, Maester Aemon, not one of the Greyjoys. So it seems like the idea at the very least has a few holes (namely, it's missing at least one husband and two known sexual partners), and a possible misinterpretation (if the ship corpse isn't even a Greyjoy). So it might not mean what some people think.

I always thought of Hizdahr as someone she needs to learn from in the Game of Thrones, while Daario is a temptation of sorts. We see Dany doing the whole "young infatuation" thing, mirroring Jon's with Ygritte. Jon rejects Ygritte initially because he feels it's Wrong and Dany does the same with Daario before succumbing. Hizdahr is Dany trying to do a marriage of convenience so she can rule (and failing).

Regarding the corpse on a ship, I agree, maybe if she is going to ally with an Ironborn, it will be Theon, not Euron. He could theoretically win the Kingsmoot if he got to Pyke and called a new one, which would overthrow Euron.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

I'm not sure about the "dead man's seed," though, so I'll admit that it's curious, especially as Jon has an adjacent dream in which he is basically undead. Perhaps this is wishful thinking, but I'd like to imagine this "giving seed" as a metaphor for his triumph over her and her dragons (like a kiss from a sword), since I really think what Dany represents is going to play out as the power that must be overcome ultimately.

Which man are we talking about here? This one?

but his lips were blue and bruised, and when he thrust himself inside her, his manhood was cold as ice.

I think that its clearly Euron Greyjoy, his lips have been described as being literally blue and bruised. But what i dont know is why people think it's a dead man she has sex with. The "cold as ice manhood" (god, I hate that word xD) could just be a metaphorical way of saying he will be cold towards her since what he actually wants from her is her dragons, nothing else.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jon dreamed he was armored in black ice though with a burning sword and not just ice like Dany did. The black ice may refer to something else.

I think the ice, no matter what color it is, is kind of the defining feature there. Jon dreams he's fighting while wearing ice armor. Dany dreams she's fighting an army of things armored in ice. I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude that they might very well be seeing the same conflict from opposing sides.

I think that its clearly Euron Greyjoy, his lips have been described as being literally blue and bruised. But what i dont know is why people think it's a dead man she has sex with. The "cold as ice manhood" (god, I hate that word xD) could just be a metaphorical way of saying he will be cold towards her since what he actually wants from her is her dragons, nothing else.

I agree at least that a, uh, dicksicle is not ironclad evidence of doing it with a corpse. It can easily just mean a lack of passion or love. Haven't we had marriages described as icy, frigid, cold, etc. before? Like, Stannis and Selyse's, for example?