"Her small breasts moved freely..."

[Lummel]

...EDIT: Then there is also the gratuitous lesbian sex. Why does Dany need another woman to give her a helping hand having a wank? Is she incapable of doing it on her own? As she has spent some time and effort on learning about sex and her body, it should not be rocket science to her, which makes involving another woman seem pointless.

Well apparently Prince Charles has a servant put toothpaste on his toothbrush for him, so in light of that I don't think her handmaiden and ex-slave reaching in to do her duty with a helping hand was so gratuitous. And it is duty I think by the description rather than sex. I know that technically dany has freed all these people but me that scene shows that the notion of freedom hasn't sunk in. I suppose that's not surprising because they are all still dependant on her.

[butterbumps!]

I'm not quite clear on why the original author, Wong, chose this as illustrative of a breach in sensitivity. Is the problem that it mentioned "breasts," or that the qualifier "small" is unrealistic for a woman to include when considering her own breasts? Unlike many of the other characters, Dany remains the exclusive POV for the chapters that pertain to her, and if not for descriptions like this, we'd have no idea what she looks like. I think it would create a lot more fury if Jorah or Ser Barristan were to have waxed poetic on her breasts, not least of which because it would have to be said to her (given her exclusive POV). I think the small breasts thing is kind of interesting in terms of character development- she's this fertile symbol of the mother, yet she doesn't take on the conventional big-hips, big breasts that many "mother-types" are written as. Though not crucial, I think it helps shape our image of her.

And also, I think we've seen a veritable parade of penises, penis mentions and penis descriptions-- who could forget the"fat pink mast." I also recall a thorough description of one of the Kettleback's wirey black pubes.

[Lummel]

:huh: :o :blush: :) :lmao:

Are you telling me that when Michael Lewis wrote about "big swinging dicks" in Liar's Poker he was. . . . . . joking?

Since TMI seems to be a theme today, you didn't answer the other question - are you conscious of women eyeing the bulge in your pants as you walk down the street?

Thank you for starting my morning off, um, er, gee, huh, hmmm, right?

Hmm. Well. Modesty :blush: forbids any personal comment!

Lets just say that 'big' is the operative word, but that from a male point of view bigness is assumed to be inherently good, erhm, in that context, I mean you wouldn't want to know that you were smallest anyhow, erhm, and that why there is so much spam email offering enlarging products in the world.

And as the joke goes the reason why so many women are bad at parking is that they are used to their men telling them that 'this big' is six inches.

[WhiteWalder]

When I read the passage from the book, I thought the point of mentioing her breasts was to describe her clothing - not to show that she was conscious of her breasts rubbing against her clothing. It was free flowing and moved loosely about her upper body - GRRM did not describe how it made Dany feel, he described what she was wearing.

[Lyanna Stark]

Well apparently Prince Charles has a servant put toothpaste on his toothbrush for him, so in light of that I don't think her handmaiden and ex-slave reaching in to do her duty with a helping hand was so gratuitous. And it is duty I think by the description rather than sex. I know that technically dany has freed all these people but me that scene shows that the notion of freedom hasn't sunk in. I suppose that's not surprising because they are all still dependant on her.

Do you mean the notion of freedom has not sunk in for Dany, or for the ex slaves? I am fairly certain there is more than one occasion where Dany summons a handmaiden for this particular task, and I think at least once in ADWD where she's all hot and bothered after having sent Daario away when it "doesn't work" or some such, so it's not like it's something passing.

As a sidenote, I am impressed you managed to insert Prince Charles and toothpaste into a thread about Dany's sex life or sexualised bodyparts (or lack thereof). :lol: It must be a world first!

[Woman of War]

Hm, the sentence Martin wrote there could have been written by me the same way. I am a woman with kids, reasonably well in shape with average breasts, i.e. nothing special.

From puberty on I have always been well aware how my breasts move under my clothing, I have always liked to feel the different materials and was unhappy if certain social and professional occasions demanded a modest bra.( never forget it when doing sports like running, girls, unwise!)

Today women are indeed overly aware of their breasts as not being an enjoyable part of their own body but as something separated from themselves, defining them in the eyes of others. Not only of men, but also and in a very ugly manner, as instrument to establish concurrence with other women. Breasts are not allowed to be part of yourself anymore, a source of your own sensual joy in the sunshine, while having sex or when feeding your kids. While being a huge taboo ("nipplegate" omigod we European football fans rolled on the floor laughing about that) they are externalized, stolen from women's bodies by being loaded with all kinds of messages, not comfortably caressed by smooth lingerie but presented in wired constructions :) , reduced in extremis to silicone bags. And never allowed to show a life's history, i.e. to age. Remember the debate about Cersei's breasts, people stated that calling her breasts sagging would be sexist. It is sexist to expect a woman of thirty five with three kids to have breasts that do NOT sag.

So I enjoy reading about a young woman liking her breasts the way they are, not squeezed into a wonderbra or altered by surgery. And if this happens to be written by a man, fine with me.

[voodooqueen126]

Hmm. Well. Modesty :blush: forbids any personal comment!

Lets just say that 'big' is the operative word, but that from a male point of view bigness is assumed to be inherently good, erhm, in that context, I mean you wouldn't want to know that you were smallest anyhow, erhm, and that why there is so much spam email offering enlarging products in the world.

And as the joke goes the reason why so many women are bad at parking is that they are used to their men telling them that 'this big' is six inches.

Of course being well endowed is inherently good, but all the same, one doesn't think about a man's penis until he is naked/he tells you that he is ridiculously well endowed/your friend tells you that his is tiny... What I do think about when I look at male beauty is tallness, strength, muscles and heavy body hair.

Hopefully these things will correlate with penis size..

I would say that whilst there have been many mentions of the penis in male POV chapters, there hasn't been much of men remarking on their own muscles/tallness/hair, the first two being nearly universal criteria for male beauty (in female eyes) and the latter being a pretty popular one*. In fact of the two female characters who have the best gaze: Sansa and Brienne, Sansa mentions Loras's smooth chest once (she's a child, and she has a child's tastes, though she has always prized tallness), whilst Brienne mentions Gendry's resemblence to Renly (I need to reread Brienne's chapters, because I think she admires Jaime's beauty once), Arya does actually mention Gendry's muscles. So hats off to Arya, if she manages to escape the FM she may have the most normal sex drive...

*Although Asian women find hairiness revolting, and in the novel Beloved, the hairiness of white men is yet another disgusting feature they possess.

[Woman of War]

We are not seriously discussing the SIZE of boobs here, are we!!?? :(

[deleted01]

Gods, people will be offended/outraged by anything. Of all the things he could have picked up on from these books, this is the quote he chose? *le sigh*

I simply read it as describing her clothing. I'm very aware of my breasts and how they sit/move in my clothing, if my bra fits right, etc etc. I simply took it to mean she was growing up, her body was changing, and she was aware of how her breasts sat in the Dothraki vest compared to her other clothing :dunno:

[mcb]

We are not seriously discussing the SIZE of boobs here, are we!!?? :(

Of course not. We're discussing whether GRRM makes us hate women by mentioning that they have boobs.

[Lummel]

Do you mean the notion of freedom has not sunk in for Dany, or for the ex slaves? I am fairly certain there is more than one occasion where Dany summons a handmaiden for this particular task, and I think at least once in ADWD where she's all hot and bothered after having sent Daario away when it "doesn't work" or some such, so it's not like it's something passing.

As a sidenote, I am impressed you managed to insert Prince Charles and toothpaste into a thread about Dany's sex life or sexualised bodyparts (or lack thereof). :lol: It must be a world first!

I meant the ex-slaves more than Dany, I don't think she's had enough time to learn to think of herself as an owner of people. And Prince charles, well you know, I'm just looking for some way of trying to understand the alien mentality of the rich and powerful :commie:

Of course bigness is inherently good, but all the same, one doesn't think about a man's penis until he is naked/he tells you that he is ridiculously well endowed/your friend tells you that his is tiny... What I do think about when I look at male beauty is tallness, strength, muscles and heavy body hair.

Hopefully these things will correlate with penis size..

Well, maybe women on the board will be able to confirm or deny that such a correlation exists to your satisfaction in another place, I couldn't comment as I'm certainly not tall.

We are not seriously discussing the SIZE of boobs here, are we!!?? :(

No, the other gender has been the subject of discussion as far as size is concerned.

[Woman of War]

Lummel, most women are very broad minded :D

I have a sweetheart that is tall and muscular, though fortunately not hairy and he rarely beats his chest with his fists.

And I have a son son who is of average size, slim, elegant, no unnecessary body hair and sporty, dashingly beautiful, turning heads where he goes and as a young girl I would fall straightaway for him athough he is so very different from his daddy.

So beauty is definitely in the eyes of the beholder and heavy body hair is a very special taste.

And SIZE in men - since when has it to do with knowledge of good lovemaking.....

[Evamitchelle]

Of course being well endowed is inherently good, but all the same, one doesn't think about a man's penis until he is naked/he tells you that he is ridiculously well endowed/your friend tells you that his is tiny... What I do think about when I look at male beauty is tallness, strength, muscles and heavy body hair.

Hopefully these things will correlate with penis size..

I would say that whilst there have been many mentions of the penis in male POV chapters, there hasn't been much of men remarking on their own muscles/tallness/hair, the first two being nearly universal criteria for male beauty (in female eyes) and the latter being a pretty popular one*. In fact of the two female characters who have the best gaze: Sansa and Brienne, Sansa mentions Loras's smooth chest once (she's a child, and she has a child's tastes, though she has always prized tallness), whilst Brienne mentions Gendry's resemblence to Renly (I need to reread Brienne's chapters, because I think she admires Jaime's beauty once), Arya does actually mention Gendry's muscles. So hats off to Arya, if she manages to escape the FM she may have the most normal sex drive...

*Although Asian women find hairiness revolting, and in the novel Beloved, the hairiness of white men is yet another disgusting feature they possess.

There are a few more instances where men's appearance is remarked upon by other characters. Brienne does say once that Jaime looked “half a corpse and half a god” when they were in the bathhouse in Harrenhal. Cersei also recalls that she found Rhaegar very attractive (though I think it's more about his face than his body). And then you also have Ned's first chapter in which he remembers Robert being "muscled like a maiden's fantasy" and Jaime wondering what the hell Cersei sees in one of the Kettleblacks, who's covered in coarse black hair IIRC. I think Sansa also thinks that Renly is one of the handsomest man she has seen.

[voodooqueen126]

I meant the ex-slaves more than Dany, I don't think she's had enough time to learn to think of herself as an owner of people. And Prince charles, well you know, I'm just looking for some way of trying to understand the alien mentality of the rich and powerful :commie:

Well, maybe women on the board will be able to confirm or deny that such a correlation exists to your satisfaction in another place, I couldn't comment as I'm certainly not tall.

No, the other gender has been the subject of discussion as far as size is concerned.

Lummel, if you're taller than 5"4 than you're tall enough for me.

Yeah but do any of the male characters comment on their muscles, height or chest hair? I mean male characters think about their penises, but as I said above, I doubt many women think about a man's penis until they have passed the stage of finding his height, muscles and other testosterone indicators acceptable, I would also suspect that men find their penises much more interesting than women do.

Actually comparing penis to breasts is unfair: I would say that men don't think about the aesthetics of a vagina until they are in bed with a woman (if indeed they ever do).

I would also say that things like broad chestedness/tallness/hairiness/long ring fingers, are all indicators of good health and high testosterone.

Yet symmetrical and large breasts are I think indicators of high estrogen and good health.

So essentially women and men are judging each other upon the same criteria.

Yet men for some reason don't think about these things very much, they seem to think about their penises, which aren't interesting to women until much later.

[Monk Meth-]

>implying women are always concerned with the way they look.

[Monk Meth-]

arent*

[Fragile Bird]

For anyone who doesn't know, "Big Swinging Dick" is a reference to a "Master of Wall Street", a bond salesman who dumps a shit bond on an unsuspecting customer. Not exclusively, of course. But it's a phrase you'll hear a lot of in the next year because after the success of Moneyball and The Blind Side, Michael Lewis' book Liar's Poker is about to be filmed. Although the events he describes happened more than 20 years ago at a firm that no longer exists, Salmon Bros., his description of finally acheiving Big Dickdom by dumping $10M of a bad bond on a client still resonates today.

No Lummel dear, I really didn't expect men to be flopping around without skivvies, lol.

[Woman of War]

Voodooqueen, the size of a woman's breasts is an indicator of the size of the breasts of her female ancestors, that's all.

[Blood.of.my.Blood]

I would say i think about my breasts several times a day, often when walking -wondering how much they bounce etc.

I think im just a massive boob fan, or just still enjoying the novelty of having big boobs these days.

Either way i don't find it sexist that Martin describes such things, its natural and we are meant to appreciate the beauty of the character.

[Natalie_S]

.. What I do think about when I look at male beauty is tallness, strength, muscles and heavy body hair. Hopefully these things will correlate with penis size..

In Italy there's a saying called "the L rule" (in the letter L, one side is short and the other is long): according to this, the taller the man, the shorter the penis.

It is known. :-)

By the way, I think that ser Jorah's abundance of hair is mentioned at least a couple of times, and other characters are described as muscular, or tall/short.